Look it's not just gender that got fluid...

we all know that words fundamentally structure the way we think and operate.
Actually, you're presenting as a fact something on which there is no consensus. So no, we don't "all know that".
I tend to think that words follow ideas, and the other way around only last until the shock effect wears off - after which the word meaning change to reflect the idea it illustrates, instead of the mind of everyone altering their point of view.
 
The thing is one side knows it really isn't saying anything sensational, but the more politically correct takes them for Einsatzgruppen for daring to say it. The thought police err fairly heavily on the side of false positives in their identification of transgressors.

embarrassing. we're done.

Actually, you're presenting as a fact something on which there is no consensus. So no, we don't "all know that".
I tend to think that words follow ideas, and the other way around only last until the shock effect wears off - after which the word meaning change to reflect the idea it illustrates, instead of the mind of everyone altering their point of view.

that is a very fair objection, my statement was too general and uncalled for and your proposal of language following ideas is something I would agree with. there is constant interplay, a feed-back loop, between ideas and language
 
[Africa]... which many scientists believe to be the origin of modern humans
Another really interesting idea that's gained traction recently is that Africa wasn't uniquely the "cradle of humanity"--that ancient humans evolved in Africa for a while, a bunch left and evolved in Eurasia for a while and came back, mixed with folks who stayed in Africa, and so on.
 
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It is not incorrect to say that some human populations have different allele frequencies. (My most charitable interpretation of one of the claims being made)

It is not incorrect to say that "race" is a word that exists in the english language that has some definitions (My most charitable interpretation of the other claim)

But it is most definitely wrong and stupid to say that race is a useful and scientific way to describe one of these human populations. This is the claim that y'all are dancing with but attempting to keep a respectable distance from.
 
It is not incorrect to say that some human populations have different allele frequencies. (My most charitable interpretation of one of the claims being made)
That's good, because that's almost exactly what I said five pages ago.

"Race is a concept associated with expression/prevalence of different alleles in different population groups."

...it is most definitely wrong and stupid to say that race is a useful and scientific way to describe one of these human populations.
I don't think anyone made that claim. Merely that it was a) possible b) based upon real characteristics (and pinpointable parts of the genome) i.e. 'real' and c) (in the case of the TheMeInTeam) the historical method used to distinguish races.

No, I was just making an open post To Whom It May Concern, about how they're making Claim 3 and when called on it they make giggling and simpering defenses of Claim 1 and Claim 2, while chiding us for being so silly as to doubt the obviously true Claim 1 and Claim 2.
If you agreed with 3... what grounds did you have for 'calling' people on it? If you now agree with what was being said several pages back, what have you been arguing about?
 
It's hilarious how Senethro points out exactly what you're doing (conflating claim 3 with claims 1 and 2) and then in your response to his point you do exactly that: conflate claims 1 and 2 with claim 3.

I don't think anyone made that claim.

"Race is a concept associated with expression/prevalence of different alleles in different population groups."

Merely that it was a) possible b) based upon real characteristics (and pinpointable parts of the genome) i.e. 'real' and c) (in the case of the TheMeInTeam) the historical method used to distinguish races.

If you agreed with 3... what grounds did you have for 'calling' people on it? If you now agree with what was being said several pages back, what have you been arguing about?

This last one is the funniest example because of course Senethro has been quite clear that Claim 3 is wrong and that he doesn't agree with it. And of course this seems a tacit concession that "people" were in fact arguing for Claim 3 despite you saying earlier in the same post

I don't think anyone made that claim.
 
Uh, dude, 3 and 4 are (part of) what proves racists wrong... and they don't really have much to do with a discussion of 1 and 2, so where the conflation is i'm not sure.
 
Where is the claims 1 to 4 post?
 
Clarification: my post 310 was in reference to my post 307 and I was using Claim 1 in reference to 307 paragraph 1. I’d have edited for clarity but I’m on a phone.
 
I wonder if @brennan @TheMeInTeam also would agree with my list.

It has to be a social construct. If you think about the implications in detail under an assumption it isn't you get some really odd results...IE someone is 1% North African by heritage, another person is 5%. Time for different races yet? How about at 6% 50%? Whoops, now there's a different genetic trait difference (perhaps disease susceptibility or resistance)...time to start over! But now we have people with slightly different skin tones again, how much until new race? But we still have the diseases resistance, time to exponentially increase the number of non-social construct races again...

It never stops, unless you're willing to claim silliness like every individual is his/her own race (destroying the utility of using the word in the first place).

Races are typically defined by properties observable in physical reality, but that doesn't mean those stratifications aren't arbitrary. Actually their changing nature and historical trends very much suggest they *are* arbitrary and those of us posting here might as well be part of the "gamer preference race", it's not like that would be more or less so.

A less abstract example is an 50% Asian person with either 50% Caucasian or 50% African lineage...or maybe 50-25-25. Even these are gross oversimplifications. But in reality people are drawing the line somewhere...is this person "only Asian", or do they get to be 3+ races? The ideal answer is that it shouldn't matter, but as a species we've not been very good at that.
 
This is becoming comically contrived :lol:

I certainly didn't expect the level of interest on discussing race to be this high. And with people who are actually not americans!

The one thing I participate about is the issue of ancient hominids, just to say that I believe we'll see many more revisions to the theories of how mankind evolved and spread, towards accepting that people always mixed a lot.
 
they could only interbreed in specific circumstances, and many of the children had birth defects, depending on whether the mother or the father was neanderthal or homo sapiens. donkeys and horses also breed. breeding is not the only criteria. clearly you don't understand the distinction species - genus - race.

But since you asked me to spell it out for you, here goes:

We are animals. Our phylum is Cordata, our class Mammalia. The order is primates, the family is hominidae. Our genus is homo. This genus includes, for example, Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis. They are a different genus from us, they are not a different race. Interbreeding with Homo Erectus, for all we know, would not be possible, or at the very least it would be a stretch. Then we finally get to species. There are different species of humans: Homo sapiens, Neanderthal, Denisovan. These different species can partially interbreed, but are still distinct enough genetically for problems to occur. Different species of humans are not races. Now within the species homo sapiens people have developed another taxonomy and called that taxonomy race. Race is only concerned with the individuals and groups within one species. Race is not concerned with Neanderthals and Denisovans. There wasn't "one race" in the beginning, there were no races. To be exact, there were no human races and there was no idea of "race" (there were other taxonomies or in-out groups in place) until the 17th century, when this specific taxonomy arose.

So there, you got your long answer. I hope you can now finally stop with this "1 race" bullfeathers, you can finally stop misusing the word and applying it in contexts where it makes zero sense, we can hopefully move on and develop a more sensical, useful and less arbitrary repertoire of concepts and definitions to talk about human genetic diversity, or really just human diversity in general, because that is what's at heart of this debate.

It was a simple yes or no question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Race

Race can mean humanity

Our genus is homo. This genus includes, for example, Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis. They are a different genus from us, they are not a different race

Are they in our genus or different ones? I didn't say Habilis was a different race, I presume they were long gone 200,000 years ago. I said our ancestors were a race 200,000 years ago and they were surrounded by relatives they supposedly could interbreed with. If we could breed with Erectus populations that left Africa long before our appearance then we could breed with our contemporaneous African neighbors. We were a distinct population that could interbreed with other peoples in our genus.

at some point we were a very small population of genetically very similiar monkeys, that much is probably true, but calling that "race" would be idiotic, as race is about distinction within genus (hence why we can all breed).

Were we a distinct population within our genus and able to breed with our neighbors?
 
So we have a person who passed for black and was bullied at school because people thought that he was "mixed race".
He gave up saying he was Irish and accepted the label but still said he was Irish when asked.
So why all the hate because someone accepted the black label.
You can only have a black label if you're scotch
 
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