ls612's C2C Units

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

1. Did you figure out their tag names so I can update my list correctly?

2. Please leave the upgrade path the same. I have all the other stats to give you once you have done this step. In fact I will start posting the next step soon.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok I got your last update and first thigns first. Stuff that needs to still be chnaged that I asked before.

Gunship
Rename to: Attack Helicopter

AH-64 Gunship
Rename to: Helicopter Gunship

Barrage Balloon
Upgrades to: Propeller Fighter (not the Early Fighter)

Double Biplane
Upgrades to: Propeller Fighter AND Prop Tactical Bomber (not Early Naval Fighter)

Early Jet Fighter
Upgrades to: Jet Fighter AND Jet Interceptor
Note: You have it upgrading to the wrong Jet Fighter. The one you have it upgrading to should be the "Modern Jet Fighter".

Early Naval Fighter
Rename to: Propeller Naval Fighter
Upgrades to: Jet Naval Fighter

Stealth Fighter (UNITCLASS_STEALTH_FIGHTER)
Rename to: Early Stealth Bomber
Note: Since we already have a Stealth Fighter (UNITCLASS_MODERN_FIGHTER)

Hypersonic Recon Plane (UNITCLASS_SR71)
Upgrades to: Drone Recon Plane (UNITCLASS_DRONE)

Seaplane
Upgrades to Propeller Naval Fighter

Lets get these all sorted out so we can move on.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Now for some new stuff

Adventurer
Upgrades To: Motorcycle OR Hot Air Balloon

Hot Air Balloon
Add: Can Only Defend

Barrage Balloon
- Increase Strength to 20

Early Fighter
- Increase chance to intercept Aircraft to 50%

Double Biplane
Req Resources: Dieselpunk AND Ammunition AND (Oil Products OR Biofuel)
- Increase range to 6
- Increase chance to intercept Aircraft to 50%

The next group I am not sure if he wanted all the stats wiped and these are the only remaining stats or what. What do you think? (See Below)

Propeller Fighter
- Strength 30
- Range 8
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 75%
- 5% damage to city defenses

Early Jet Fighter
- Strength 40
- Range 10
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 85%
- 6% damage to city defenses

Jet Fighter
- Strength 60
- Range 12
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 100%
- 10% damage to city defenses

Modern Fighter
- Strength 80
- Range 14
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 120%
- 10% chance to evade interception
- 10% damage to city defenses

Stealth Fighter
- Strength 100
- Range 16
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 160%
- 25% chance to evade interception
- 12% damage to city defenses
- Can perform Carrier operations

I will stop here since that's a lot to do.

 

[ls612]

Early Jet Fighter
Upgrades to: Jet Fighter AND Jet Interceptor
Note: You have it upgrading to the wrong Jet Fighter. The one you have it upgrading to should be the "Modern Jet Fighter".

You have the Following two lines in your Tags table.

Jet Fighter UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER
Modern Fighter UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER

I can't make one unit or unitclass have two names at once.

Edit: The other changes from this post are now on the SVN. I'll get to the next one (and the new Recon Plane) later today.

Edit2: Why on earth would one want to have an interception probability of more than 100%? I'll need to reduce those numbers.

Edit3:
Here is what my plans are for intercept chances

Early Fighter: 35%
Propeller Fighter: 45%
Early Jet: 55%
Jet Fighter: 60%
Modern Fighter: 65%
Hypersonic Fighter: 80%
Orbital Fighter: 85%

And the Interceptors would have 15% more intercept than their equivalents, so that when they merge at Hypersonic Fighter they have the same intercept chance. The Interceptors though will have less strength than the Fighters and won't be able to attack ground units.

 

[Hydromancerx]

You have the Following two lines in your Tags table.

Jet Fighter UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER
Modern Fighter UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER

I can't make one unit or unitclass have two names at once.

I asked before if you knew the real tags ...

@ls612
1. Did you figure out their tag names so I can update my list correctly?

and here ...

@ls612

According to his list ...

Jet Fighter = F111
Modern Jet Fighter = F16

I don't know which tags those are. If you can help sort out that that would be great.

So yeah I would tell you but I do not know what the tags are for F111 and F16.

Edit2: Why on earth would one want to have an interception probability of more than 100%? I'll need to reduce those numbers.

Edit3:
Here is what my plans are for intercept chances

Early Fighter: 35%
Propeller Fighter: 45%
Early Jet: 55%
Jet Fighter: 60%
Modern Fighter: 65%
Hypersonic Fighter: 80%
Orbital Fighter: 85%

And the Interceptors would have 15% more intercept than their equivalents, so that when they merge at Hypersonic Fighter they have the same intercept chance. The Interceptors though will have less strength than the Fighters and won't be able to attack ground units.

I don't know. I am just following the list.

Edit3:
Here is what my plans are for intercept chances

Early Fighter: 35%
Propeller Fighter: 45%
Early Jet: 55%
Jet Fighter: 60%
Modern Fighter: 65%
Hypersonic Fighter: 80%
Orbital Fighter: 85%

And the Interceptors would have 15% more intercept than their equivalents, so that when they merge at Hypersonic Fighter they have the same intercept chance. The Interceptors though will have less strength than the Fighters and won't be able to attack ground units.

Well this is what he says ...

Planes and helicopters
BASIC PLANE TYPES
Interceptor: Not one pound for air to ground. Great for air superiority, bad for everything else.
Fighter: Jack of all trades.
Tactical bomber. Close Air Support. Can kill ground units dead, but doesn't damage that many. Can even intercept, but is bad at it.
Strategic Bomber: Bombardment workhorse. Doesn’t bomb units, but rather the area they are in.
Note 1: Naval planes generally have shorter range (by ~20%) and strength (by ~10%) than normal ones, some are slightly better at bombing (since strategic bombers cannot use carriers)
Note 2: It will be probably be necessary to alter the various prerequisite technologies for the planes as well.
Note 3: Stats for many units were nonsensical and have to be completely redone.
Note 4 : I don’t have much personal experience with A2A combat in Civ4 (I always seem to overrun AI in late Industrial era), unit stats are based on mechanics described here http://www.civfanatics.com/book/export/html/28
Note 5: I’m not sure if chance to intercept plane can be over 100% (as even damaged supermodern planes should be able to intercept WW2 era planes easily). If that is not so, simple lower the >100% chance to 100%.
Note 6: What difference is there between Early fighter Units, Jet Fighter Units, Supersonic Units and Stealth Units??? Only available promotions (especially when Jet, Supersonic and Stealth fighters all share theirs), or something else too?

 

[ls612]

@Hydro:

What then would UNIT_JET_FIGHTER be?

Edit: It would seem that the F16 does not exist except as a text entry.

Edit2: There are some duplication issues as well, as well as stats not making sense between the upgrade chains. This is really messed up and confusing.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Here are the Interceptors ...

Red = Adjust to What you think it should be.

Jet Interceptor
- Strength 40
- Range 14
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 120%
- +100% vs Air units

Modern Interceptor
- Strength 50
- Range 16
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 150%
- +100% vs Air units
- 15% chance to evade interception

Stealth Interceptor
- Strength 60
- Range 16
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 200%
- +100% vs Air units
- 30% chance to evade interception

And for the Naval Fighters ...

Seaplane
- Strength 20
- Range 4
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 25%
- 5% damage to city defenses
- +100% vs ships
- Can perform Carrier operations

Propeller Naval Fighter
- Strength 28
- Range 6
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 75%
- 10% damage to city defenses
- +100% vs ships
- Can perform Carrier operations

Jet Naval Fighter
- Strength 54
- Range 9
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 100%
- 14% damage to city defenses
- +50% vs ships
- Can perform Carrier operations

Modern Naval Fighter
- Strength 72
- Range 12
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 120%
- 10% chance to evade interception
- 18% damage to city defenses
- +25% vs ships
- can perform Carrier operations

And a special task ....

F-14 Tomcat
Req Resouces: Culture (American) AND Aircraft AND (Oil Products OR Biofuels)
- Strength 52
- Range 14
- Chance to intercept Aircraft 140%
- +100% vs Air units
- 10% chance to evade interception
- Can perform Carrier operations
Notes: Remove Navy SEAL unit since this will be the new American Culture unit.

As he said ...

I thought about it and this one makes more sense to include as American national unit. SEALs are nice and all, but Brits have the SAS and SBS, Russians have naval Spetsnaz, Israel, Germany and China all have their own special amphibious assault units and so do many other countries. NOBODY has a plane like the F-14 (except Iran, which still uses F-14s gifted to the Shah by US government). And considering that SEAL lost its model to Special Forces I really think that F-14 should replace it as the American national unit. Also add the dash “-” in name.

I agree with what he suggested.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro:

What then would UNIT_JET_FIGHTER be?

Edit: It would seem that the F16 does not exist except as a text entry.

Edit2: There are some duplication issues as well, as well as stats not making sense between the upgrade chains. This is really messed up and confusing.

Well I can see the unit on the upgrade tree. Both have the same name at the moment, but have different icon/buttons. The problem is what is the tag for each one.

 

[ls612]

@Hydro:

Could you please try cleaning up the airplanes (or ask DH)? There are so many issues, useless text entries, and odd duplications that I am really fed up with them. I'll help with the rebalancing afterwards, but I really don't want to have to deal with this mess.

 

[ls612]

Well I can see the unit on the upgrade tree. Both have the same name at the moment, but have different icon/buttons. The problem is what is the tag for each one.

No, I searched the entire SVN for TXT_KEY_UNIT_F16_FALCON, and it was only in the gametext file, not in any unit files. So that can't be it. I think that mcookie and DH did a poor job of this merge last year, and I can't make heads or tails of it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro:

Could you please try cleaning up the airplanes (or ask DH)? There are so many issues, useless text entries, and odd duplications that I am really fed up with them. I'll help with the rebalancing afterwards, but I really don't want to have to deal with this mess.

I asked and DH said he wanted the Aviation mod to be as a separate mod. However I personally think they should be merged since they are having to be redone in practically every way. Be it ...

- Names
- Icon/Buttons (I need to fix them because they lack the alpha channel)
- Stats (ex. what we are doing now)
- Requirements (because we have different techs and resources)

In short my vote would be to just merge them into the core since its getting too complex and they are getting chnage too much from the original Aviation mod.

EDIT: You might be better off making new units with the correct tags and just delete the old units.

 

[ls612]

I asked and DH said he wanted the Aviation mod to be as a separate mod. However I personally think they should be merged since they are having to be redone in practically every way. Be it ...

- Names
- Icon/Buttons (I need to fix them because they lack the alpha channel)
- Stats (ex. what we are doing now)
- Requirements (because we have different techs and resources)

In short my vote would be to just merge them into the core since its getting too complex and they are getting chnage too much from the original Aviation mod.

I'd vote that as well. I however really don't want to be messing with the airplane units anymore, it has been incredibly annoying.

Edit: And however much I want to (I really want to) I can't make new units and delete the old ones without breaking saves.

Edit2: Finally some good news, I've got the Recon Plane to work and will add it now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

No, I searched the entire SVN for TXT_KEY_UNIT_F16_FALCON, and it was only in the gametext file, not in any unit files. So that can't be it. I think that mcookie and DH did a poor job of this merge last year, and I can't make heads or tails of it.

Hmm. Well here is a visual of the units on the tree. Maybe you can figure it out by what upgrades to what.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

Ok i found a out a little more. The Early Fighter (UNITCLASS_EARLYJET) says it upgrades to UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER and UNITCLASS_F104_STARFIGHTER. Well The 2nd is the Jet Interceptor so that's correct. So that means UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER = Modren Jet Fighter. However what's the tags of the unit that is suppose to be called "Jet Fighter".

EDIT: Found it!!

Jet Fighter = UNITCLASS_F111_AARDVARK
Modern Jet Fighter = UNITCLASS_JET_FIGHTER

Mystery solved!

 

[Faustmouse]

I always thought the units with interception chance above 100% have it on purpose to counter the "chance to evade interception" from some units.
So if a unit with a 120% interception chance fights against a 50% chance for evade chance the chance for actually intercept it would be 70% [120%-50%] (or maybe 60% [50% of 120%])

 

[Thunderbrd]

I always thought the units with interception chance above 100% have it on purpose to counter the "chance to evade interception" from some units.
So if a unit with a 120% interception chance fights against a 50% chance for evade chance the chance for actually intercept it would be 70% [120%-50%] (or maybe 60% [50% of 120%])

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, that is very much the way that should be working. I've never once found that somehow confusing.

 

[God-Emperor]

But evasion doesn't work that way. It has literally nothing to do with the interception chance. The evasion chance is the chance that it will not even attempt to intercept. It is not affected by anything. A 50% evasion is always a 50% chance of skipping the interception check.

Interception probabilities are limited to the specified maximum value. Damage reduces an air unit's interception chance, but that is based off of a value that has already been limited to the max. This limiting is done in the CvUnit::maxInterceptionProbability function, which is the basis for the value returned by the CvUnit::currInterceptionProbability (which is modified for damage).

Well, using the MODDERGAMEOPTION_BETTER_INTERCETION (the anem of which apparently leaves out a "P", unless there is a typo in the code) and/or BBAI_AIR_COMBAT changes how it works. I'm not really sure exactly how, but a quick glance and it appears to also use the maxInterceptionProbability function and therefore it is also trimming the value down to the max before any adjustments are made.

I should say that this is how it is done in the C2C code. The standard BtS code applies no such limit. The only use for the MAX_INTERCEPTION_PROBABILITY in the regular BtS DLL is to see if the unit can take a promotion that increases the interception chance. If it would push it over the max interception chance then it can't take the promotion. If the base interception chance is over the specified maximum it is not reduced, it is just used as-is. C2C also uses the maximum to prevent gaining a promotion that puts the total above the max, but beyond that it applies it as an actual limit to the interception chance a unit can have and applies the limit before the modification for damage. So with the regular BtS DLL a unit that is specified to have a 120% interception chance will still have a 60% interception chance if it is half damaged, but with the C2C DLL (and not using options that change how air to air combat works) it will have only a 50% chance (assuming the limit is set to 100%). Likewise when using the BtS DLL a unit with a 120% interception chance will do 20% more damage per combat round that it wins than one with a 100% chance, but with the C2C DLL this will also be limited to the maximum.

 

[Thunderbrd]

But evasion doesn't work that way. It has literally nothing to do with the interception chance. The evasion chance is the chance that it will not even attempt to intercept. It is not affected by anything. A 50% evasion is always a 50% chance of skipping the interception check.

Interception probabilities are limited to the specified maximum value. Damage reduces an air unit's interception chance, but that is based off of a value that has already been limited to the max. This limiting is done in the CvUnit::maxInterceptionProbability function, which is the basis for the value returned by the CvUnit::currInterceptionProbability (which is modified for damage).

Well, using the MODDERGAMEOPTION_BETTER_INTERCETION (the anem of which apparently leaves out a "P", unless there is a typo in the code) and/or BBAI_AIR_COMBAT changes how it works. I'm not really sure exactly how, but a quick glance and it appears to also use the maxInterceptionProbability function and therefore it is also trimming the value down to the max before any adjustments are made.

I should say that this is how it is done in the C2C code. The standard BtS code applies no such limit. The only use for the MAX_INTERCEPTION_PROBABILITY in the regular BtS DLL is to see if the unit can take a promotion that increases the interception chance. If it would push it over the max interception chance then it can't take the promotion. If the base interception chance is over the specified maximum it is not reduced, it is just used as-is. C2C also uses the maximum to prevent gaining a promotion that puts the total above the max, but beyond that it applies it as an actual limit to the interception chance a unit can have and applies the limit before the modification for damage. So with the regular BtS DLL a unit that is specified to have a 120% interception chance will still have a 60% interception chance if it is half damaged, but with the C2C DLL (and not using options that change how air to air combat works) it will have only a 50% chance (assuming the limit is set to 100%). Likewise when using the BtS DLL a unit with a 120% interception chance will do 20% more damage per combat round that it wins than one with a 100% chance, but with the C2C DLL this will also be limited to the maximum.

That's VERY helpful info right there! Funny... I like the BtS way better than ours. Huh... you can tell I've never tried to decipher the coding on air battles.

Seems to me the above is all very confusing to a player (NOT what one would assume based on the blurb readouts from evasion and interception tags) and should be more like:

I always thought the units with interception chance above 100% have it on purpose to counter the "chance to evade interception" from some units.
So if a unit with a 120% interception chance fights against a 50% chance for evade chance the chance for actually intercept it would be 70% [120%-50%] (or maybe 60% [50% of 120%])

where the interception check is what's being made there and the evasion chance is a directly opposing, counteracting value to the probability of interception...

In essence, evasion can overrule the skill of the interceptor this way. If Evasion is high enough then the interception skill is meaningless, which I don't think is good design. Then again, its funny to think of how many Stealth planes get shot down by machine guns...

 

[JosEPh_II]

We've went past the Overly complicated gameplay mechanism limit long ago. This mod is now top heavy and teetering. The "crash" will Not be pretty. Luckily I saved some decent early versions so I have a parachute.

This plane ride is in Stall Mode now and about to take a Hammerhead dive. Pull some of this overly complicated game bogging mess out of this Mod before it crashes, Please! It's suffocating now.

And to those that say the Long Freeze caused this, baloney! The long freeze exposed an underlying cancer that has been here for sometime. And longtime modders are now thinking twice about the cost.

I've been a Long time supporter of this mod, but I'm starting to choke.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

I've been a Long time supporter of this mod, but I'm starting to choke.

You know just what to say to brighten our day.