ls612's C2C Units

Are Thieves and Ambushers going to be removed from the game then? They are obsoleted by Rogues before the building pre req of a Bandits Hideout at Archery is available. And shouldn't the tech for Rogues be moved to Archery? No point having them made available with Personal Ardornment if you can't build the Bandiits Hideout until Archery.
 
Are Thieves and Ambushers going to be removed from the game then? They are obsoleted by Rogues before the building pre req of a Bandits Hideout at Archery is available. And shouldn't the tech for Rogues be moved to Archery? No point having them made available with Personal Ardornment if you can't build the Bandiits Hideout until Archery.

One of them should go as they are both approximately the same unit and are slightly redundant. But having a prehistoric Criminal unit is IMO good.
 
Are Thieves and Ambushers going to be removed from the game then? They are obsoleted by Rogues before the building pre req of a Bandits Hideout at Archery is available. And shouldn't the tech for Rogues be moved to Archery? No point having them made available with Personal Adornment if you can't build the Bandits Hideout until Archery.

Ban Hideout is avail at TECH_SCAVENGING.

And Thieves/Rogue should NEVER be alined with an Archery type.
Whereas the Ambusher should. If you Promote the Ambusher the way it is intended, you can take on a str 10 even and win. In the forest area of course. (think of Robin Hood)

Thieves and Rogues can pillage whereas the Ambusher should not, he is there to "Ambush and TAKE the goods" Rogues and Thieves just about do anything, ie 'criminal (take everything in its site that it can carry).

I believe thats the way i set them up.
 
Ban Hideout is avail at TECH_SCAVENGING.

And Thieves/Rogue should NEVER be alined with an Archery type.
Whereas the Ambusher should. If you Promote the Ambusher the way it is intended, you can take on a str 10 even and win. In the forest area of course. (think of Robin Hood)

Thieves and Rogues can pillage whereas the Ambusher should not, he is there to "Ambush and TAKE the goods" Rogues and Thieves just about do anything, ie 'criminal (take everything in its site that it can carry).

I believe thats the way i set them up.

When I was playing yesterday or the day before, Archery unlocked Banditry which is needed to build the Bandits Hideout. Unless it has changed since then, that is how it is set up.
 
I agree Banditry should not be linked to Archery. Please put Banditry Civic back to Scavenging tech.
Well, it doesn't need to be at Archery, but I don't want it to come so early in the game. I think that Banditry is a more advanced form of military, and is more advanced than Tribal Warfare.
 
Well, it doesn't need to be at Archery, but I don't want it to come so early in the game. I think that Banditry is a more advanced form of military, and is more advanced than Tribal Warfare.

I know SO moved it back but I just want to disagree with banditry being more advanced than Tribal Warfare. In Tribal Warfare you have generally ritualized ways of fighting with specific rules on how to win. Banditry is very primitive, so much so one could say Chimps use a form of Banditry when fighting other packs. It also doesn't have to be an army, bandits can be individuals who take things from others. Thus scavenging fit well as a tech since its based collecting and taking things.

And as a 3rd comparison Militia is more a defensive type of warfare with more or less untrained individuals.
 
@SO, ls612, DH or TB

I am trying to make a new Culture unit for the Arawak. However it won't load. Can one of you look at it and see why its not working? Note it should go in the "Units" mod folder. This is my 2nd attempt at making a unit so I am very much a n00b when it comes to this stuff. I have gone over and over it but I can't seem to figure out what's wrong with it.

Thanks in advance! :goodjob:
 
@SO, ls612, DH or TB

I am trying to make a new Culture unit for the Arawak. However it won't load. Can one of you look at it and see why its not working? Note it should go in the "Units" mod folder. This is my 2nd attempt at making a unit so I am very much a n00b when it comes to this stuff. I have gone over and over it but I can't seem to figure out what's wrong with it.

Thanks in advance! :goodjob:

See your PM from me . . . SO
 
I know SO moved it back but I just want to disagree with banditry being more advanced than Tribal Warfare. In Tribal Warfare you have generally ritualized ways of fighting with specific rules on how to win. Banditry is very primitive, so much so one could say Chimps use a form of Banditry when fighting other packs. It also doesn't have to be an army, bandits can be individuals who take things from others. Thus scavenging fit well as a tech since its based collecting and taking things.

And as a 3rd comparison Militia is more a defensive type of warfare with more or less untrained individuals.

Perhaps the moniker is the problem. Banditry implies organized robbery from a large group of individuals and a culture of such behavior. It implies Gang behavior. This, admittedly was probably a little more advanced than what we see in chimps.

However, Theft is probably something the Homo Sapien was involved in since before we were Homo Sapien. Some good arguments have been made that the evolution that put us ahead of other Hominids was our ability to commit acts of deception, our ability to lie cheat and steal basically.

I don't know that you can say any kind of early social policy (civic) would be possible to represent this early period before it was even recognized that we should begin to try to be anything other than selfish beasts. However, once we began to learn how to establish rules of cooperation and social orders to work together more effectively is probably also when some individuals began to specialize in breaking those rules and getting away with it. It would probably also be around then that some of those individuals would 'band' together and organize this behavior against rival groups.

Calling that Banditry would be somewhat acceptable but it can't be directly compared to the same kind of Banditry such as we witnessed during the middle ages, large groups of social pariahs, outlaws, renegades and fugitives banding together to become a plague on society from its outskirts and on its less guarded trade routes, which the term tends to imply.

Perhaps Thievery or Raiding may imply these early practices better?


Also, I think we've gone back to ignoring that the Thief unit was all but made obsolete by the difficulty in finding enough production in this tenuous growth period at the beginning of the game to build the Bandit's Hideout so as to make them available - then the Thief is itself also a very heavy build and is weak enough to make such a selection very risky. I like being able to get them out there but I usually find myself just waiting for Rogues as it takes that long to get on top of production enough to have wiggle room to build Criminals. Didn't use to be this way... I used to find Thieves very valuable in the fight against Neanderthals. But more content put in since has pushed the Bandit's Hideout into the 'too heavy a build for quick enough benefit' range during the time period of the game that would normally be the height of the Thief's activities.

This was one reason I was thinking of putting the Bandit's Hideout into the auto-built on crime category. But I can see the reasons not to go in that design direction at this time. So the other alternative, imo, is to make it a bit cheaper on the build costs by about 1/2. At the moment it has the cost I would normally associate with a wonder to be built in the equivalent era. And since the Thief requires that building to come into play first, I'd even knock it down by 25% on its training cost. It just sucks up so much valuable limited production during that first stage! And the AI is evaluating this correctly thus why we don't see them in the game much.
 
Why would you need a civic choice for that? Surely people can exist outside the law irrespective of your governmental civic choices (apart from 'anarchy' maybe)

All i am thinking here about is the discussion, and the use of the Banditry Civic, thats all. Doesnt matter to me, or the name, as long as ONE of them is at Scavenging or one just a little latter but not much, for the Bandit Hideout.
 
How about we put Banditry a little lower in the Civic, and re-name this one to Outlawry.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/outlawry

In the meaning it can be a criminal and/or a Hero.

Outlawy would require there be laws they are breaking. While banditry is taking stuff no matter if there is a law for it or not. Basically they are taking stuff and you cannot get it back.

@TB
Also, I think we've gone back to ignoring that the Thief unit was all but made obsolete by the difficulty in finding enough production in this tenuous growth period at the beginning of the game to build the Bandit's Hideout so as to make them available - then the Thief is itself also a very heavy build and is weak enough to make such a selection very risky. I like being able to get them out there but I usually find myself just waiting for Rogues as it takes that long to get on top of production enough to have wiggle room to build Criminals. Didn't use to be this way... I used to find Thieves very valuable in the fight against Neanderthals. But more content put in since has pushed the Bandit's Hideout into the 'too heavy a build for quick enough benefit' range during the time period of the game that would normally be the height of the Thief's activities.

So you think the Bandits Hideout should be cheaper to build? Because I can lower the price.
 
Yeah, by maybe 25% or so - and the Thief unit itself could do for the same reduction so as to make them more valid a selection.

Currently the Bandit Hideout's base cost is 40. How's 10 sound?

EDIT: Or did you want 25% off, meaning 30? Not 25% of.

EDIT2: Personally I think 20 might be a good cost. Its still more than the gathering buildings but not super expensive for the time either.
 
I think 20 might be too low... its still a rather potent building. I'd test out 30 first... it used to be a bit heavy and it was still ok but now its just tooo heavy. So 30 should be fine, particularly if you reduced the Thief itself by 25%. Then we test that and see how it goes with an eye for possible further reduction.
 
Why would you need a civic choice for that? Surely people can exist outside the law irrespective of your governmental civic choices (apart from 'anarchy' maybe)

Your civ can always support the outlaws for fun and profit. That is what I see the Banditry/Outlaws civic as representing.
 
Your civ can always support the outlaws for fun and profit. That is what I see the Banditry/Outlaws civic as representing.

I can see that, but in that view wouldn't the civic present as a cost reduction for bandit's hideout and/or the units, rather than a gate that prevents them being built?
 
I think 20 might be too low... its still a rather potent building. I'd test out 30 first... it used to be a bit heavy and it was still ok but now its just tooo heavy. So 30 should be fine, particularly if you reduced the Thief itself by 25%. Then we test that and see how it goes with an eye for possible further reduction.

Ok I pushed the Bandit's Hideout on the SVN. If you want to reduce the Theif's cost by 25% I am fine with that.
 
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