[GS] Māori Discussion Thread

[KayAU]

As usual, I am late to the party. These videos tend to get released while I am driving home for work, which means I don't get to take a good look until my 2-year old is sleeping.

Anyways, dang, that's a lot of abilities. Here's my take:

Leader Ability - Kupe's Voyage

• Initial Maori units begin in the ocean
• Gain +2 science +2 culture each turn before settling first city
• First city gets a free builder
• First city starts at size 2
• Palace has +1 housing +1 amenity

This is amazing. For one thing, I really like the differentness of starting in the ocean. For another, you are very richly compensated for maybe not settling on the first few turn. With the extra mobility for embarked units, it probably should not take too long to find a great spot to settle anyway, and then going straigth to size 2, with a free builder, along with more housing and amenities, is a great advantage. This is especially true at slower game speeds. I myself play on Epic, and getting the capital to size 2 and producing a builder would certainly take a lot longer than finding a good settling spot with a 4 move settler and warrior which can enter deep ocean.


Civilization Ability - Mana

• Starts with Sailing and Shipbuilding
• All units can enter ocean tiles
• Embarked units gain +5 combat strength and +2 movement
• Unimproved Forest and Rainforest gain +1 production, +2 after researching Conservation
• Fishing Boats provide +1 food and triggers Culture Bomb
• Resources cannot be harvested
• Great Writers cannot be earned

Again, I really like this ability. You'll start off with great capability to explore from turn 1. Again, the free techs are even better on slower game speeds, where it would normally take a long time to get them. Getting to the point where you can enter deep ocean would take even longer. Next, we have the higher yields from Fishing Noats and unimproved forests/rainforests. Rainforest tiles tend to have pretty good yields anyway, and if you find yourself a nice jungle on the coast, it is going to provide very well for you. Imagine then building the Chichen Itza. The Culture Bomb is another great bonus, and given how frequent Fishing Boat resources are, it is going to get you a good number of free tiles.
Interestingly, there are also two maluses here: you can not harvest resources, nor can you earn Great Writers. It's thematically consistent, meaning the Maori are meant to live more in natural terrain. Not harvesting resources is against the current meta-game, I suppose, but I think you are very generously compensated. It might be even more beneficial now that the game will also have some negative consequences for ecological damage.
This extra focus on unimproved tiles also means that you will not need as many builders, nor have the same need for the policy card which gives extra charges.


Unique Infrastructure - Marae

• Replaces Amphitheatre
• +2 culture to each tile with a passable feature
• +2 faith to each tile with a passable feature
• +2 tourism to each tile with a feature after researching Flight
• No Great Work slots
• Costs no maintenance

Yet again, this looks very good. The tile bonuses are great, and they apply to tiles which will already be desirable to work. Being the first tier building in the Theatre Square district is also pretty good, and synergizes somewhat with the part of the Civilization Ability which gives higher production after researching Conservation. As the Maori, you will want a strong culture game.


Unique Unit - Toa

• Classical Era melee unit
• 40 combat strength
• 2 movement
• -5 combat strength for adjacent enemy units
• Can construct Pa improvment on hills, which grants +4 defence strength and fortification for occupying unit, and heals units which end turn there

I don't know all the details of this one, but on the surface, it looks a bit like a mix between an Indian Varu and a Roman Legion. I think this is going to be pretty powerful.


Overall...I'm actually struggling a bit to wrap my head around this civ, they just have so many abilities. I have no doubt this is going to be a powerful civ, which is going to get off to some very good starts, especially on slower game speeds. I suspect it is going to give Indonesia a hard struggle to retain the title of best naval civ. It is certainly taking away Norway's status as the best civ for early ocean exploration, and as such, a bit of what used to make Norway special. In a sense, I fear Norway is going to become to the Maori a bit like what Egypt has been to Nubia. They do many things which are similar, but the Maori generally do them significantly better.

Anyway, I really look forward to trying the Maori. I like naval civs, and the Maori looks like they are going to be both a very distinct, and a very powerful one.

 

[darkace77450]

"Resources cannot be harvested."

Does this mean we can't harvest bonus resources? If so, does this mean we won't be able to build districts on wheat, rice, banana, etc. tiles? Hopefully it's referring strictly to bonus resources and not features; it's going to hurt if we can't clear woods and rainforest.

 

[UWHabs]

They look wonderfully fun to play, but I will echo what others have already said: in the face of the Maori's unique ability, the Norwegians desperately need an overhaul, and I'm thinking that Norway has to be one of the reworked civs. There's no way Firaxis can be unaware how badly the Maori vaporise almost any reason to play as Norway.

Yeah, for sure. The biggest thing to me that Norway needs is a reliable way to get science or culture without building campuses or theatres. Because if they settle coastal for their ships, and build harbors for sea resources and holy sites for their special buildings, that takes up too many spots. Even a simple "earn culture every time they naval raid" bonus would go a long way to helping them out.

 

[criZp]

They look wonderfully fun to play, but I will echo what others have already said: in the face of the Maori's unique ability, the Norwegians desperately need an overhaul, and I'm thinking that Norway has to be one of the reworked civs. There's no way Firaxis can be unaware how badly the Maori vaporise almost any reason to play as Norway.

norway's "enter ocean early" is just one of their naval abilities, and they have other bonuses that work well with it (faster ship production & healing in neutral territory), so they are still fine as they are.

 

[Ziad]

"Resources cannot be harvested."

Does this mean we can't harvest bonus resources? If so, does this mean we won't be able to build districts on wheat, rice, banana, etc. tiles? Hopefully it's referring strictly to bonus resources and not features; it's going to hurt if we can't clear woods and rainforest.

You can clear features like Forests, but you are given bonuses to incentivize keeping them around.

 

[PhilBowles]

'The noble savage stuff in the article re environmental issues grates; but hey - it's a game mechanic I suppose.

Haven't read the article, but don't really understand this - the 'noble savage' is typically associated with Native Americans, not the Maori, and I'm not sure how being able to rapaciously chop down forests but unable to harvest sheep really qualifies anyway.

 

[AntoineS]

Oh my, the ways they find to nerf England again and again!

So, nice to see starting techs back into the franchise, a warm welcome!
And what style - to start on water!

Future rulers of the water maps, for sure

But honestly, those canals through city centre in ~4000 BC, even before monument is built, seriously?

The Maoris are an awesome civ for all kinds of reasons (Unique gameplay, balanced in terms of gameplay, strong at what they do, sticks to history)... it doesn´t nerf only England in comparision though... Norway... France.... I mean France with so much cultural history has the Château... (max 4 culture 1 gold almost impossible to put down on a later tech...) they have the Marae (+2 culture, +2 faith to a bunch of tiles per city you're going to work anyway on a much earlier tech)... the Château needs to be reworked to make it more fun, and just useful, same goes for England, Norway.... The Maori are just there to show how great each civ can be in terms of gameplay uniqueness, there´s a lot of potential to make some of the previous ones better

 

[UWHabs]

You can clear features like Forests, but you are given bonuses to incentivize keeping them around.

Yeah, with +1 production per forest, and +2 late, plus +2 culture/+2 faith with the Marae, definitely don't want to be chopping them too much.

Although interestingly, the production bonuses is listed as "per unimproved forest/jungle", so they're also an interesting civ in that you need to decide whether it's worth putting a plantation on a banana tile, or keep it unimproved for the bonus.

 

[Cagarustus]

I am going to go ahead and say that I will play this civ first.

Until the Inca are revealed and we say: “and we thought the Maori were OP.”

 

[EgonSpengler]

Do the Maori get a combat bonus during the Rugby World Cup?

 

[nzcamel]

Haven't read the article, but don't really understand this - the 'noble savage' is typically associated with Native Americans, not the Maori, and I'm not sure how being able to rapaciously chop down forests but unable to harvest sheep really qualifies anyway.

Noble savage would be any paternalistic view of any native people that assumes that they live more in harmony with nature than more modern people do. Granted - when you are less technologically advanced, you do tend to appear to be that way as you have had less chance to impact the world around you.

As @Victoria notes we used to have the biggest bird in the world living in Aotearoa. Europeans never saw the Moa (or 15 foot Turkey lol) alive as the Maori hunted it to death; which in turn killed off the biggest eagle that ever existed which was dependent on the Moa to survive. Maori were very happy to use what they could; and were natural traders with no qualms over wheeling and dealing with Europeans.
Yes, much of their traditional spirituality and myths tie to the land; but as a race both pre and post European arrival they weren't especially ecological.

The way Kupe's agenda works also plays into that generalisation.

Do the Maori get a combat bonus during the Rugby World Cup?

At the very least when they build a stadium in their EC's it should have rugby markings, not football!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

"Resources cannot be harvested."

Does this mean we can't harvest bonus resources? If so, does this mean we won't be able to build districts on wheat, rice, banana, etc. tiles? Hopefully it's referring strictly to bonus resources and not features; it's going to hurt if we can't clear woods and rainforest.

Considering a new and improved Enviornmentalist will be his agenda, it keeps up with the theme.
And besides as other people have mentioned late game woods and rainforests will add +2 production as well as +2 culture and faith if you build their unique building.

At the very least when they build a stadium in their EC's it should have rugby markings, not football!

And Canada should get ice in theirs.

 

[Greywulf]

Awesome! Very happy with this! I got my wayfinding ability after all, plus a bunch of other stuff. May not be exactly what I had in mind all together, but this is actually really niche, and niche is what I was after! Also, I didn't expect starting in the ocean, but that is very cool...Even better than I had thought, I love it! Still a bit militaristic, but not as focused on military as I had feared they could be as the Maori either. Looking forward to playing as the Maori, and I think they might end up as my favourite civ to play as, just like Polynesia was my favourite in Civ V...

Thank you Firaxis! Well done!

 

[ExtremeGardens]

Quoted from the article below:

The game's developers are based in the US, but they said they worked with local New Zealand staff to researched the architecture and monuments, and worked with a professional ta moko artist to design the tattoos on Kupe's face.

"Research drives our decisions. We're not experts in New Zealand or Māori culture, so the more the learned the more we could accurately share and the more people could learn about the Māori story."

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainme...lization-vi-launched-with-new-mori-characters

I am glad that they have done their due diligence, especially with the facial tattoos. I remember this forum was concerned about the lack of ta moko or getting it wrong.

 

[sav]

Here's an interview with Ed Beach on a New Zealand news website (the one I work for, it so happens), if you want to get a Kiwi view on the Maori civilisation.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/ente...devs-explain-why-maori-are-a-perfect-fit.html

My first impressions are the devs nailed it - but the pronunciation in the trailer is pretty woeful!

 

[Zaarin]

Once again not digging through twenty pages, but here are my thoughts:

*Kupe is very animated. Like only Cleopatra even comes close. His eyes make me expect him to say, "Glory to you...and your house" or "You have sided against the Maori in battle, and this we do not forgive...or forget."
*Those abilities...Maori are going to be a powerhouse. I find them much more exciting than Hungary's.
*Starting in the ocean will be really interesting and different.
*The pa is graphically different from the mound we saw in the early screenshots, adding credence to either a Cahokia city-state or a Mississippian Mound wonder. I'm inclined toward the former: it didn't look like a wonder.

I'll wait to see other civs before I declare which I'll play first...but right now Maori will be a strong contender.

 

[darkace77450]

And besides as other people have mentioned late game woods and rainforests will add +2 production as well as +2 culture and faith if you build their unique building.

I'd trade a woods or rainforest tile, even a Mana-boosted one, for a well-placed Campus or Holy Site any day of the week.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Awesome! Very happy with this! I got my wayfinding ability after all, plus a bunch of other stuff. May not be exactly what I had in mind all together, but this is actually really niche, and niche is what I was after! Also, I didn't expect starting in the ocean, but that is very cool...Even better than I had thought, I love it! Still a bit militaristic, but not as focused on military as I had feared they could be as the Maori either. Looking forward to playing as the Maori, and I think they might end up as my favourite civ to play as, just like Polynesia was my favourite in Civ V...

Thank you Firaxis! Well done!

Yes, this makes not getting Samoa fine because it's almost how I envisioned a Samoa Civ in the first place minus the military bonus. And yes I would have never predicted starting on the ocean, but I love it and I'm sure you do too since that was what you really wanted.
I know I want to play Mali first when it comes but the Maori right now are definitely going to be second, unless Phoenicia or the Inca have more interesting surprises.
But I never expected as many cultural bonuses as we got, and coming from a primary cultural or science player I can't wait to explore the new strategy.

 

[bite]

I'm really glad they put the leg work in and got a professional to design the face tattoos

 

[Greywulf]

...Think it's prime time I went and see Moana...