[GS] Māori Discussion Thread

[Lord Lakely]

This is why i think the toa is potentially problematic:
Consider Toa vs Shaka's impi corps, generally considered medieval bruisers
40
+10 vs anticav
+5 from haka alpha dominance dance
+8 from oligarchy and legacy
=63.
Impi corps with oligarchy
41
+10 from corps
+5 from shaka's loincloth (zulu corps bonus)
+8 from oligarchy and legacy
=64.
An impi corps costs ~250 production.
Even without using pikes here, Toa can outhit knights by 5 (53 v 48), Black Army as seen so far by 3, only losing to samurai (by just 3) in the middle ages. And the toa can get tortoise to fend off crossbows (and battlecry to be cruel.)

They got some teeth on them jade clubs!

And if they're defending on a Hill, they can build a Pa and get +4 Strength from the Pa PLUS the hills defence bonus PLUS the full fortification bonus PLUS additional healing at the end of the turn.

They're OP, but I think it's actually fine. Remember that Maori have their early game development delayed because of their oceanic start. Getting an OP unit is one thing. Pumping out enough of them while behind in number of cities is a whole other story.

 

[Cagarustus]

I must say: I’m very impressed with this Civilisation. The leader artwork is fantastic and their abilities are great. I love the fact that they start in the water.

Also, the Maori are a proud people and their culture is very unique, so it’s great to have them represented in the Civ franchise.

Well done, Fireaxis.

 

[FurionHuang]

Hydroelectric, geothermal, solar, wind and what? Fusion?

Not specific to the game, the fifth I believe is Bio rather than Fusion.

 

[jddods]

Normally I spend moments of my working day thinking about my current civ game, am I going to join one Gigabro in his attack of the other Gigabro... But I can't get Maori out of my head fantasising a particular Kupe's Voyage. Can't wait to play this start.

 

[criZp]

They're OP, but I think it's actually fine. Remember that Maori have their early game development delayed because of their oceanic start. Getting an OP unit is one thing. Pumping out enough of them while behind in number of cities is a whole other story.

should not be any problem to settle the capital at turn 3 unless you absolutely need some "perfect" spot

 

[DWilson]

If the Maori had to be nerfed, isn't it quite possible that the UU will have lower combat strength than is seen in this First Look (which have often been older builds)?

 

[drubell]

I can't wait for the first screenshot where Maori's settler and warrior start in a 2-hex lake

 

[DWilson]

Also, is anyone else planning to place a Pa/Pas right outside enemy borders for rapid healing and unit rotation when sieging/invading?

 

[nzcamel]

I can't wait for the first screenshot where Maori's settler and warrior start in a 2-hex lake

It's an ocean start

 

[Greywulf]

Also, is anyone else planning to place a Pa/Pas right outside enemy borders for rapid healing and unit rotation when sieging/invading?

I was actually thinking that this could be a method to overcome the situation of finding land that is already occupied. Also, it allows for efficient defence against invaders who are triggered by the fact that you settled near them...I can definitely see situations where land will be contested.

 

[Sostratus]

I can definitely see situations where land will be contested.

You better believe when I start near the coast and get the screen for meeting Kupe on turn 5, they're going right back into that ocean from whence they came

 

[nzcamel]

You better believe when I start near the coast and get the screen for meeting Kupe on turn 5, they're going right back into that ocean from whence they came

You've got an era to prepare before they have Toa and Pa's...

 

[GoatsHeadSoup]

I can't wait for the first screenshot where Maori's settler and warrior start in a 2-hex lake

I cant wait to see how the Maori perform on Earth true-start maps. I can see them settling their first city in very ahistorical places.

 

[mitsho]

Cool, didn't expect such a unique design.

Will the AI be able to manage the ocean starts?

 

[bbbt]

Unless the culture victory is changed, Maori are laughably awful with the culture victory, which is unfortunate since their UB is an amphitheater. I guess the building would be valuable for progressing through the Civics tree quickly (provided you get the passable features for it), but then you're going to want to stop building theater district buildings because, from where I sit, building museums for Maori would be a waste of time because you will always be behind everyone else in tourism and your hammers can be better spent.

The majority of the cultural victory comes end game when you've get all your 'multipliers' in place (i.e. computers, policy cards). They just need to get other tourism sources in place before then. You can get a huge huge amount of tourism from improvements and the like. With just Christo Redentor, any Seaside Resort is going to be on par with a base great work of writing (i.e. 8 tourism or more). Add in the the Eiffel Tower and other appeal boosters (UIs, City parks) and that gets higher per resort. Someone like the Mapuche can pull in a lot of tourism with their Chemamull.

They'll want to get flight quickly - which will make every 'unimproved passable feature' in their cities be generating +2 tourism, and get a lot of seaside resorts and parks and the like. Archaeology museums will also be helpful.

 

[Buthera]

I was talking to a close mate last night before the vid hit, she's played every Civ since II, she bought the Polynesia DLC the day it came out and loved it because it meant she could play the game in the same way as the stories she grew up with - like Kupe. I'm so damn happy that she gets to see her culture and people represented like this. And now she has no excuse not to finally get Civ VI.

Some super minor pedantic stuff that doesn't matter:

- Should probably be "Taua" rather than "Toa"? Works either way but I think Taua specifically relates to war, Toa is victory/bravery if I'm not mistaken.
- Their icon/necklace seems a little generic and doesn't really scream Maori, I think a matau or tiki would look cooler and feel more immersive. I love their mere though!

Otherwise I can't wait to play them! Great job Firaxis!

 

[acluewithout]

Are these guys actually OP?

Hmm. Starting at sea is a negative. Nice you get some science and culture to tide you over till you get a city, but you’re still delayed. That’s a big deal.

First city is very buff, but some of that is just to compensate the late start. The big advantage is you can immediately start work on a settler for your second city.

A lot hinges on what you can or can’t harvest. If you can chop jungles and woods, even to place districts, that’s a big negative. If it’s more lenient than that it won’t be a problem.

No Writers is a good restriction for a culture civ. Early culture victory is out, but it’s also harder because you can’t compete with other Civs for writers and so stop them getting them.

The UU may need a nerf, granted. God, I hope they buff Kongo’s underpowered UU.

Two free techs is huge though. You start being able to embark and building ships and improving sea resources. And then there’s just the science you save. That’s a big deal too.

I think this is a very cool Civ. Very different style of play. Love it. No idea if they are OP. Probably not, but the UU might put them over the edge.

A few people have asked about Norway. I think Norway are fine. For starters, they start on land! Big advantage! Norway’s Longboats are awesome. They’ll still get all the city state meets and goody huts. Norway will be pillaging Maori while Maori are still putting forts on hills. Norway will still be good at early settling, although clearly they’ll have someone else to compete with now.

 

[clapyourhands]

Wow, I really like this civ. Abilities are somewhat complicated, but the breakdown someone did earlier of restriction + substitute bonus made it more digestible. A shame that the vanilla civs are cursed with blandness in comparison, but hopefully some most of that is addressed in GS. Especially Norway now that the Maori are the premiere early-game naval explorers.

 

[Sostratus]

They'll want to get flight quickly - which will make every 'unimproved passable feature' in their cities be generating +2 tourism,

Because of this and the +2 production and the Marae boost i have little doubt they will be more capable of culture wins than most civs. Great writers are nice, of course; but you can have a LOT more forest/jungle/reef/marsh/oasis/floodplain (srsly? FXS take floodplains out) than you can ever have slots for writers, by a factor of 4+. Look at the amount of floodplain in the Hungary stream and the one with England. One river can have half a dozen floodplains tiles. And you reap culture and faith from that as soon as you get amphitheaters, which is when every other civ will start to get GW points in the first place.

I think this is a very cool Civ. Very different style of play. Love it. No idea if they are OP. Probably not, but the UU might put them over the edge.

We have to see how they code the sea start. If they are plopped into the middle of oceans, that's one thing. If they generally start near the coast, that is another. Kupe's ability IMO balances out at least 5 turns of swimming to land; I mean you get some yields right away and you get the free pop and builder plus extra embarked movement for easy coastal exploring by any unit. The Civ ability+UB- bonkers early yields- more than justifies not harvesting resources which i believe we already had the ed beach message saying they can still chop features if needed. I think they meant the builders lose the harvest resource action. The UU, if it's a sword replacement, is just OP bananas. Which is why I'm inclined to believe it either is a special unit or its not the final stats. If it keeps these stats it will literally be the premier unit into the medieval. Matthias is gonna need to levy the land lubber alliance to repel the Toa, who can beat Black Army units under oligarchy.

 

[Leathaface]

I don't understand why maoris can't get writers. That just seem like a pointless limitation. Not being able to harvest is something I don't do anyways so whatever, but no writers just lock them out of culture victory for seemingly no reason.

i think the Marae would be OP if it could hold great works of writing, it already gives fantastic yields to passable terrain.

I am going to go ahead and say that I will play this civ first.

I'll probably go for Hungary since their bonus for building districts across rivers from their city center is very strong.

It's a stand alone melee unit like Samurai and Berserkers. It's not a warrior or a swordsman.

It's probably right that it can't be upgraded into. It is a very powerful unit.