Machiavelli's The Prince

The_Tyrant

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I just finished reading The Prince today and I can honestly say it was a very enjoyable read. I find the politics of the Italian City-States fascinating. However, I draw a blank whenever I try to find aspects of our society that can originate or relate to the Prince. Obviously their are "Machiavellian" dictators who were greatly influenced by the book but what about the more mainstream politics?
 
I think the chapter on civil principalities has some good advice for modern leaders. Simply substitute "other political leaders" for the nobility while reading the chapter.
 
The Prince is the greatest piece of troll literature in the world
 
What Civ King said. Machiavelli was a staunch republican, and the book was written as a veiled way of explaining to the populace-at-large "this is how they are screwing you over". It really has far more spiritual commonality with Orwell than with Stalin.
 
I think the consensus among scholars now is that it's satire.

If you want a serious read then I suggest the Arthashathra by Chankya.
 
What Civ King said. Machiavelli was a staunch republican, and the book was written as a veiled way of explaining to the populace-at-large "this is how they are screwing you over". It really has far more spiritual commonality with Orwell than with Stalin.

Bingo. An even cursory reading of The Discourses will show that he had a serious hard-on for independent city-republics.
 
Bingo. An even cursory reading of The Discourses will show that he had a serious hard-on for independent city-republics.
And he dedicated the book to the man who tortured him after recapturing Florence to boot. Still, it is undoubtedly a brilliant piece of political philosophy, whatever Machiavelli's intentions.

As for aspects of our society relating to The Prince, pretty much the entire International Relations theory of Realism is based, at least in part, on Machiavelli's work. One of the main reasons is that The Prince is almost a how-to guide on how to gain and keep power.
 
I dunno, the "satire" argument seems to be predicated on the idea that the man was incapable of changing his mind, and seeing things that honestly might not be there at all.
 
To be fair it's more predicated on the idea that breaking a man's arms is unlikely to get him to change his mind in your favor.
 
Whether Machiavelli supported the aims in The Prince or not is immaterial to his goals of writing it. He wanted to use it as a kind of ultimate resume, to get his old job back in the diplomatic corps of Florence. To do that, he had to ingratiate himself with the new regime, knowing he was connected to the old. In this, he failed, but not for lack of trying.

Machiavelli doesn't say anything in The Prince that everyone doesn't already know, even for his time. The difference was that he didn't mince words. Previous political philosophers at least tried to justify their positions through some sort of moral or philosophical grounds, but Machiavelli dispensed with that by simply dispensing advice to attain power for a ruler for its own ends, not for any other benefit.
 
Machiavelli doesn't say anything in The Prince that everyone doesn't already know, even for his time. The difference was that he didn't mince words. Previous political philosophers at least tried to justify their positions through some sort of moral or philosophical grounds, but Machiavelli dispensed with that by simply dispensing advice to attain power for a ruler for its own ends, not for any other benefit.

I was under the impression that Machiavelli was the first to actually write a political treatise for future tyrants. If his advice has been written before, what makes The Prince a classic?
 
I was under the impression that Machiavelli was the first to actually write a political treatise for future tyrants. If his advice has been written before, what makes The Prince a classic?
It is an interesting read and when you read between the lines it becomes quite loltastic as it can basicaly be summed up as 'screw you, nobles!'.
 
I was under the impression that Machiavelli was the first to actually write a political treatise for future tyrants. If his advice has been written before, what makes The Prince a classic?

In the Western tradition, before Machiavelli, we had Plato's "Republic" which advocated what essentially amounted to a totalitarian state, run by philosophers, as well as Aristotle's "Politics" which claimed that some people needed to be ruled by autocrats because that's all they could understand. In both of these, the authors attempted to explain their reasoning as each government being somehow best for the society. Machiavelli didn't bother to appeal to loftier notions of what is best for society, but simply what is best for those in power, which is usually more power than their neighbors and adversaries. He also advocated the use of subterfuge and deceit to gain advantage in a very open manner, again only to the benefit of the ruler, and not necessarily anyone else, such as the people. Previous philosophers had also done that, but as always, they tried to justify their means by claiming it achieved a superior end. Plato, in Republic, is full of admissions of deceit of the people in order to make them loyal to the state above their loyalty to their families or even their lives. He states this is necessary in order to have the state function properly.

In summary, Machiavelli presented a treatise on advancing the interests of power for its own sake, even using what would amount to criminal acts. He presents no higher philosophy, in a departure from previous political treatises which always relied on philosophical underpinnings. That this sort of behavior was going on had always been clear to those connected to power, but it was not supposed to be something so freely recognizable to the masses.
 
In the Western tradition, before Machiavelli, we had Plato's "Republic" which advocated what essentially amounted to a totalitarian state, run by philosophers, as well as Aristotle's "Politics" which claimed that some people needed to be ruled by autocrats because that's all they could understand.

Your grasp of ancient philosophy is tenuous at best.
 
He wanted to use it as a kind of ultimate resume, to get his old job back in the diplomatic corps of Florence. To do that, he had to ingratiate himself with the new regime, knowing he was connected to the old. In this, he failed, but not for lack of trying.
Why? He only got kicked out because he refused to ingratiate himself to the new regime. Why was getting fired and his arms broken likely to make him want to ingratiate himself to them more?
 
Why? He only got kicked out because he refused to ingratiate himself to the new regime. Why was getting fired and his arms broken likely to make him want to ingratiate himself to them more?

Not even that. He was kicked out because of his attachments to the old regime, his opinion of the new being of little consequence.
 
In the Western tradition, before Machiavelli, we had Plato's "Republic" which advocated what essentially amounted to a totalitarian state, run by philosophers, as well as Aristotle's "Politics" which claimed that some people needed to be ruled by autocrats because that's all they could understand. In both of these, the authors attempted to explain their reasoning as each government being somehow best for the society. Machiavelli didn't bother to appeal to loftier notions of what is best for society, but simply what is best for those in power, which is usually more power than their neighbors and adversaries. He also advocated the use of subterfuge and deceit to gain advantage in a very open manner, again only to the benefit of the ruler, and not necessarily anyone else, such as the people. Previous philosophers had also done that, but as always, they tried to justify their means by claiming it achieved a superior end. Plato, in Republic, is full of admissions of deceit of the people in order to make them loyal to the state above their loyalty to their families or even their lives. He states this is necessary in order to have the state function properly.

In summary, Machiavelli presented a treatise on advancing the interests of power for its own sake, even using what would amount to criminal acts. He presents no higher philosophy, in a departure from previous political treatises which always relied on philosophical underpinnings. That this sort of behavior was going on had always been clear to those connected to power, but it was not supposed to be something so freely recognizable to the masses.
Hobbes is the person that really demonstrates your argument - which isn't entirely incorrect - not Plato and Aristotle, whose writings weren't what you portray them to be.
 
Hobbes is the person that really demonstrates your argument - which isn't entirely incorrect - not Plato and Aristotle, whose writings weren't what you portray them to be.

I wouldn't even say so much. Hobbes thought that security and stability were more valuable than whatever benefit that could be derived from citizen participation in the state, hence absolute monarchy. But that doesn't have a great deal of metaphysical implications, and as far as I know, Hobbes' were not very atypical for his day. It was moreso about practicality and good governing than ethics.
 
Well he is correct that Aristotle thought that a plutocratic rule by the aristocracy was best, but that was more in the interest of striking a happy medium between chaotic and corrupt democracy and unchecked and nepotistic tyranny (as in "rule by tyrants") than it was in any belief that the citizenry didn't know what was best for themselves.

I confess my knowledge of Plato is restricted almost entirely to his metaphysics, so there'll be no comment from me on The Republic.
 
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