Machiavelli's The Prince

Well he is correct that Aristotle thought that a plutocratic rule by the aristocracy was best, but that was more in the interest of striking a happy medium between chaotic and corrupt democracy and unchecked and nepotistic tyranny (as in "rule by tyrants") than it was in any belief that the citizenry didn't know what was best for themselves.

This is exactly right. Aristotle wasn't an extremist, and his entire philosophy is empirical. He observed that moderation is best in human matters, and concluded that the best government is a middle ground between democracy and despotism. I can't help but feel anybody who attempts to criticize Aristotle on this is really just trying to discredit modern peripatetics by association. It's about as silly as trying to discredit the scientific method by pointing out that Isaac Newton held archaic beliefs.

I confess my knowledge of Plato is restricted almost entirely to his metaphysics, so there'll be no comment from me on The Republic.

Socrates' hypothetical city in the Republic is an allegory for a well-ordered soul. The citizens are happy if there is justice, i.e. if they fulfill their purpose in the polis, just as individual humans have to balance their passions, instincts and rationality. Hence, the "totalitarianism" of the city is supposed to be the dominance of the intellect over the other parts of the soul. Whether you can derive any political ideals from this at all is extremely controversial amongst classicists.

I've not read the entire corpus of Plato, and so Plotinus can doubtlessly give a more informed opinion than I, but from what I've read so far, Plato seemed to be rather uninterested in matters of the state except in how they pertained to the soul.
 
This is exactly right. Aristotle wasn't an extremist, and his entire philosophy is empirical. He observed that moderation is best in human matters, and concluded that the best government is a middle ground between democracy and despotism. I can't help but feel anybody who attempts to criticize Aristotle on this is really just trying to discredit modern peripatetics by association. It's about as silly as trying to discredit the scientific method by pointing out that Isaac Newton held archaic beliefs.

If I were to criticize him here, it would come from the direction of the Golden Mean fallacy, at least as it pertains to governance. On ethics, though, I think his rule reigns supreme.

Socrates' hypothetical city in the Republic is an allegory for a well-ordered soul. The citizens are happy if there is justice, i.e. if they fulfill their purpose in the polis, just as individual humans have to balance their passions, instincts and rationality. Hence, the "totalitarianism" of the city is supposed to be the dominance of the intellect over the other parts of the soul. Whether you can derive any political ideals from this at all is extremely controversial amongst classicists.

Highly interesting. And highly consistent with what I know of Plato and people inspired by Plato.
 
Note: Englishman.

Devious swine that traitorfish


EDIT: Heard the phase Machiavellin thrown around a lot so good to finally know what it means..
 
Your grasp of ancient philosophy is tenuous at best.

And you are naturally going to explain how, because otherwise, your refutation is worthless.

Why? He only got kicked out because he refused to ingratiate himself to the new regime. Why was getting fired and his arms broken likely to make him want to ingratiate himself to them more?


I don't know where you get the idea that his arms were broken.

Machiavelli wanted his old job back in the diplomatic corps of Florence. He wanted to be in the center of government because that's the kind of man he was. He didn't care that it was for a regime that he may not like. He just wanted to be part of the action. The last chapter in The Prince explains clearly why he would've wanted his job back, despite possibly being against the current boss. He was displeased that Italy was being dominated by foreign powers and wanted to help expel them and perhaps to unify Italy under one power. That it happened to be a monarchy was not as much of a concern to him.


Hobbes is the person that really demonstrates your argument - which isn't entirely incorrect - not Plato and Aristotle, whose writings weren't what you portray them to be.

And you are incorrect on several notes.

Hobbes also tried to use philosophical justification for his ideas. He believed that absolute control was necessary to retain stability. He even tries to calm concerns that such power would be corruptive. He still tries to justify power as something more useful than for its own sake.

Plato's Republic is quite clearly a totalitarian state. I know there is this prevailing delusion that it's about the nature of justice and the soul, but it's quite clear to me that was being serious and not metaphorical. Part of the proof for this is that Aristotle, writing in Politics a generation later, spends at least a chapter criticizing The Republic and Plato.


This is exactly right. Aristotle wasn't an extremist, and his entire philosophy is empirical. He observed that moderation is best in human matters, and concluded that the best government is a middle ground between democracy and despotism. I can't help but feel anybody who attempts to criticize Aristotle on this is really just trying to discredit modern peripatetics by association. It's about as silly as trying to discredit the scientific method by pointing out that Isaac Newton held archaic beliefs.

Aristotle's notions of politics were rather measured, but he still believed that some people could only be ruled, while others could be ruled or rule. He believed that certain "barbarians" were only capable of submission and not capable of the decision making necessary for effective administration. (He also uses this to justify slavery.) He clearly states that there is no one perfect government, but that each society has a form of government best suited to it.


Socrates' hypothetical city in the Republic is an allegory for a well-ordered soul.

See above my answer to why Plato was quite serious in referring to a government and not being as metaphorical as some would claim.

I've not read the entire corpus of Plato, and so Plotinus can doubtlessly give a more informed opinion than I, but from what I've read so far, Plato seemed to be rather uninterested in matters of the state except in how they pertained to the soul.

That was one justification of his. In fact, Plato was immensely interested in the state, because his own state of Athens was defeated in the Peloponnesian War. It is clear to me that he spends much of The Republic in veiled criticism of his government for leading to that defeat, and criticizing its rulers for being poor leaders, and its people as being too petty and corrupt.
 
See above my answer to why Plato was quite serious in referring to a government and not being as metaphorical as some would claim.

Unless he either misunderstood Plato's point as well, or chose to continue with the allegory in his criticisms thereof.

The explanation that LightSpectra gave is very consistent with the Christian understanding of Platonism right up until the Early Modern Era. The Neoplatonic influence on Christian thought was huge, and a lot of it was of this "well-ordered soul" type of thing.

That was one justification of his. In fact, Plato was immensely interested in the state, because his own state of Athens was defeated in the Peloponnesian War. It is clear to me that he spends much of The Republic in veiled criticism of his government for leading to that defeat, and criticizing its rulers for being poor leaders, and its people as being too petty and corrupt.

It was certainly a point of contention against democracy for Aristotle, but as you've made clear, The Republic wasn't veiled in anything, it was straightforward, so I doubt there would be such a thing included therein.
 
Machiavelli wanted his old job back in the diplomatic corps of Florence. He wanted to be in the center of government because that's the kind of man he was. He didn't care that it was for a regime that he may not like. He just wanted to be part of the action. The last chapter in The Prince explains clearly why he would've wanted his job back, despite possibly being against the current boss. He was displeased that Italy was being dominated by foreign powers and wanted to help expel them and perhaps to unify Italy under one power. That it happened to be a monarchy was not as much of a concern to him.
When you read The Prince alone it certainly seems that way. The problem is that Machiavelli also almost immediately wrote another book in direct opposition to The Prince, after having already written several pro-Republican books. The man clearly hated autocracy.

And you are incorrect on several notes.

Hobbes also tried to use philosophical justification for his ideas. He believed that absolute control was necessary to retain stability. He even tries to calm concerns that such power would be corruptive. He still tries to justify power as something more useful than for its own sake.
Really? Fascinating! So I'm incorrect on several levels for agreeing with you that Hobbes tried to justify his ideas about the state in Leviathan. Incredible. It's almost as if you didn't actually pay attention to anything I wrote in my short yet sweet post. You know, the one where I point out that Hobbes illustrates your argument for you?

Pay attention instead of just pissing and moaning because people aren't bowing and scraping to you next time.
 
A Tory, then? :mischief:

Cute. :)

The explanation that LightSpectra gave is very consistent with the Christian understanding of Platonism right up until the Early Modern Era. The Neoplatonic influence on Christian thought was huge, and a lot of it was of this "well-ordered soul" type of thing.

Rather convenient for a religion to claim a highly regarded ancient philosopher as their spokesman, who lived 400 years before its founding.

It was certainly a point of contention against democracy for Aristotle, but as you've made clear, The Republic wasn't veiled in anything, it was straightforward, so I doubt there would be such a thing included therein.

Too many people would claim that The Republic has nothing to do with politics.

When you read The Prince alone it certainly seems that way. The problem is that Machiavelli also almost immediately wrote another book in direct opposition to The Prince, after having already written several pro-Republican books. The man clearly hated autocracy.

Then he was quite "Machiavellian" in his approach.

Really? Fascinating! So I'm incorrect on several levels for agreeing with you that Hobbes tried to justify his ideas about the state in Leviathan. Incredible. It's almost as if you didn't actually pay attention to anything I wrote in my short yet sweet post. You know, the one where I point out that Hobbes illustrates your argument for you?

Yes, because you're incorrect. Hobbes still advocated for absolutist authority by appealing to higher principles. Machiavelli didn't bother.

Pay attention instead of just pissing and moaning because people aren't bowing and scraping to you next time.

See above.
 
Rather convenient for a religion to claim a highly regarded ancient philosopher as their spokesman, who lived 400 years before its founding.

Rather that they were heavily influenced by his thinking, seeing it as insight into the same type of metaphysical truth about the universe which they sought to explain, but which Christ had been silent upon. And also where the two, as well as other Christian philosophers, agreed.

Too many people would claim that The Republic has nothing to do with politics.

Kind of like too many people claiming Machiavelli was being serious in Il Principe.
 
Rather that they were heavily influenced by his thinking, seeing it as insight into the same type of metaphysical truth about the universe which they sought to explain, but which Christ had been silent upon. And also where the two, as well as other Christian philosophers, agreed.

It's more accurate to say that they used ancient philosophy to justify and explain their theology. No Christian was waiting around to discover Plato before setting on his mission. That was a matter of faith and not reason. And why limit oneself to only Plato? Why not pick up the Epicureans, Stoics, and Pythagoreans? It was a very selective influence.

Kind of like too many people claiming Machiavelli was being serious in Il Principe.

I don't even care whether he really believed what he was writing or not, because the points he made are quite true in and of themselves. I don't know why people are so obsessed with discovering what Niccolo Machiavelli "really" believed. It is the message that is more interesting. He was giving a realistic account of what really goes on when power is concentrated into the hands of one man. That he may have been displeased with the notion of centralization of power is immaterial.

It's just like when creationists harp about Charles Darwin's "real" beliefs. No one is interested in the personal opinions of anyone. It is only important in what they contribute to the science of the discipline.
 
I don't even care whether he really believed what he was writing or not, because the points he made are quite true in and of themselves. I don't know why people are so obsessed with discovering what Niccolo Machiavelli "really" believed. It is the message that is more interesting. He was giving a realistic account of what really goes on when power is concentrated into the hands of one man. That he may have been displeased with the notion of centralization of power is immaterial.

It's just like when creationists harp about Charles Darwin's "real" beliefs. No one is interested in the personal opinions of anyone. It is only important in what they contribute to the science of the discipline.
Isn't that rather like saying that the beliefs of Karl Marx are irrelevant to Das Kapital? :huh:
 
Then he was quite "Machiavellian" in his approach.
You're aware that that term is considered an insult, correct? Based on an improper, biased reading of Machiavelli?

Yes, because you're incorrect. Hobbes still advocated for absolutist authority by appealing to higher principles. Machiavelli didn't bother.[/quote]
:wallbash:

I agreed with you that Hobbes tried to justify his philosophy with an appeal to higher ideals, you frigging twit! Twice! It was the entire substance of my posts, since I don't know enough about Plato or Aristotle to comment on that part of the argument.

Sweet Zombie Jesus! Try to actually read what I write instead of merely hitting your little talking points. You're not running for Senate.

See above.
Oh, the irony.
 
Isn't that rather like saying that the beliefs of Karl Marx are irrelevant to Das Kapital? :huh:

Yes, it is. Anyone who would go through so much effort to write a book, and yet not actually believe a word of what he was writing is either diabolically shrewd, or is lying when he claims to disbelieve.

Motives and true feelings immaterial? Good Lord am I glad you never became a police investigator!

You know, Darwin recanted on his deathbed. (Ok, not really.)
 
Yes, it is. Anyone who would go through so much effort to write a book, and yet not actually believe a word of what he was writing is either diabolically shrewd, or is lying when he claims to disbelieve.

...or is being satirical.
 
Yes, it is. Anyone who would go through so much effort to write a book, and yet not actually believe a word of what he was writing is either diabolically shrewd, or is lying when he claims to disbelieve.
I don't think anyone's accusing Machiavelli of lying, as such; the claim is that it is was intended to dissect the unscrupulous activities of the contemporary aristocracy, laying them bare for the general public to see, and that the posing of the text as an instruction manual was an ironic literary device.
 
I don't think anyone's accusing Machiavelli of lying, as such; the claim is that it is was intended to dissect the unscrupulous activities of the contemporary aristocracy, laying them bare for the general public to see, and that the posing of the text as an instruction manual was an ironic literary device.

That would be shaving with the butt of Ockham's razor.
 
Whether Machiavelli supported the aims in The Prince or not is immaterial to his goals of writing it. He wanted to use it as a kind of ultimate resume, to get his old job back in the diplomatic corps of Florence. To do that, he had to ingratiate himself with the new regime, knowing he was connected to the old. In this, he failed, but not for lack of trying.

Machiavelli doesn't say anything in The Prince that everyone doesn't already know, even for his time. The difference was that he didn't mince words. Previous political philosophers at least tried to justify their positions through some sort of moral or philosophical grounds, but Machiavelli dispensed with that by simply dispensing advice to attain power for a ruler for its own ends, not for any other benefit.

I suspect you read the same introduction to the book as I did.

I think Machiavelli could have had multiple intentions when writing it. Perhaps he was of two minds himself with regards to what he wanted to achieve during that period in his life. I have as hard a time believing that Il Principe was merely a piece of satire as I do about the notion that he was simply trying to ingratiate himself with the new prince. People can be and are ambivalent at times.
 
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