MadV1

[Tomoyo]

lurker's comment: Tribute: Instead of writing "@ SesnOfWthr. What he said", try to write using the

tags for those that read too fast and skip over things... At first I thought that you were arguing with yourself.

 

[Tribute]

Thanks for the tip, Tomoyo.

 

[Whomp]

I suppose a good determiner for the start is what people hope to learn from this.

I have been quiet because I haven't heard anyone mention anything regarding Sesn's question. What do you want to learn? There are a lot of very good players lurking in this game. They can help. If you don't want the help that's cool too.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I have been quiet because I haven't heard anyone mention anything regarding Sesn's question. What do you want to learn? There are a lot of very good players lurking in this game. They can help. If you don't want the help that's cool too.

OK, I'll go first. Seems kinda odd to answer my own question, but whatever.

My goal is always to learn any new tricks that I can. Primarily, I joined this game to brush up on my skills, in anticipation of rejoining higher level games in the near future. However, every SG I have been in thus far (15? 20?) I have been able to learn things, so I always try to follow the discussions as much as possible. I also think it's good to not discount anything that is said by lurkers, they are generally trying to help.

As far as specific skill sets, I am already familiar with settler factories, combined warfare, prebuilding, and most other generalized skills. I'd like to brush up on my trading efficiency, and I'm a warmonger at heart, so I suppose any sort of builder experience would probably be beneficial. I can build, I just find it boring most times.

Other than that, let's meet some new people, and spread the knowledge around.

 

[namliaM]

I did not get Copan into SF mode... But its near
Thinking about it, it is was the perfect worker pump at size 3 => 5fpt/5spt so I made it produce 2 (much needed) workers for the aria around Copan
For settlers (Copan is here right now) starting as size 3.0:
size 3 5s
size 3 5s (+2 on growth) =12
Size 4 7s =19
Size 4 7s (+2?) 26 (or 28) leaving us short.
(not sure if we get the bonus if we would finish the Settler)
Settler will be produced at 5.5 sending Copan back down to 3.5

Starting at 3.5
size 3 5s (+2 on growth) = 7
Size 4 7s = 14
Size 4 7s +2 = 23
Size 5 9s = 32

This is If/When Copan can use 4 of the mined BGs around it along the cow and 1 more mined Grass.
In other words if we leave Copan on the settler now and then only settlers it is in SF mode. But it need be monitored closely for unhappiness (2 @ size 5 with only 1 MP) or we need to add MPs.
And the city's around it need to be monitored that they are not taking the BGs away on the growth points and after that.
Since we have a 2 shield overrun with this plan, we can stand to have 1 BG miss as size 5 IF we have a 2nd mined grass, then the last 2 are:
Size 4 7s + 1 = 22
Size 5 8s = 30: Spot on!
That will not happen for a while, so MM! (and maybe get that grass mined ASAP.)
Also important to Mine the BG with the worker on it before moving of to connect Bonampak!

Turn log:
Pre-turn
Copan is low on shields to be a settler factory.... Leave it on settler now
CI Change to JT, dont want to waste shields & dont want to waste turns on waiting for the settler.
The JT can be used for barb hunting.
Tikal change to worker
Set lux to 10, set all copan citizens back to work

1@1790 Road Iron Moutain, Road plains nw Palenque
Note: If it were up to me I would have not yet roaded this, but the worker was allready there. Building 3 warriors and upgrading them is much nicer than building 1 sword. It costs a bit of gold but gets you 3 swords for the (shield) price of 1. This is something I recently learned by the way (in COTM 11 I think) I feel this realisation alone uped my game a noch or 2.

IT: Copan settler done > Temple (it will help expand borders, Keep citizen happy and allow for growth)

2@1750 Lux to 0, Sci to 80%, Meet mongol Scout with Conscript Warrior, They have HBR, Horses, 70g and 3 citys
Send settler to site#1, its defendable, an outpost to Lisbon, but needs irigation

IT: un eventfull, JT done > Warrior

3@1725 Irrigate NW of Palenque, Road W of Palenque, Change palenque from Granary to Barracks

IT: Mongols build Oracle, Warrior done in CI> JT (prebuild for swords)

4@1675 Found Yaxchilán, Port Warrior/Settler just W of it build Barracks, Up lux to 10% (for Copan)

IT: Iron road done

5@1625 Chop forest E of Yax, Switch Copan to settler

IT: Settler done in Copan>Worker, Worker done in Tikal>Worker, Portuguese start Colossus (F8 says in Lisbon Duh)

6@1600 Send warrior from CI to Yax, Chop NW of CI, Settler W (War/settler combo due sw)

IT

7@1575 Set lux to 0, Set sci to 70

IT: Sword done in CI> Sword, Worker done @ Copan>Worker
NOTE: Copan is the perfect worker pump at size 3 5fpt/5spt

8@1550 Port will prob take Hill ne of City 3, I will take City 2, Road E of Yax, Move sword form CI to Mountain E-E of CI for (Barb) lookout
Turn sci down to 30% Writing in 1 (+14gpt)

IT Learn Writing> CoL, Port did not take the hill!
The trading situation at this point:

9@1525 Road NW of CI

IT Worker done in Copan>Settler

10@1500 Found Bonampak build Worker (It is low on shields!)

Not sure what to build in Bonampak, we dont much need another worker right now (not there anyway) maybe it should start a pre-build for a courthouse... once we get CoL

Handover things/Ideas for the (near) future:
- There is a Warrior/Settler combo out in the fog N of Copan, where will it settle?
- Build (atleast) one more worker at Tikal (one being build allready), use that to road the Gems then to road the Horses.
- Keep some swords in CI & Copan for MPs to keep Lux tax down.
- Use the JT to Barb hunt (move it around in the unsettled lands N NE of us) DO NOT USE IT TO FIGHT anything other than barbs!! maybe return it to CI for MP.
- Do not cross the river near palenque with the worker, Go and Irrigate NE of Palenque then Road/Mine the Gold hill NE of that
- Send the Mountain Swordsman to CI and send the Swordsman (to be produced) in CI to Copan Both for MP purposes!
- Use the worker NW of CI for getting them BGs se of CI road/mined ASAP after finishing the Road.
- Have fun!

Our empire:

The Save

 

[namliaM]

Learnings: I hope to be in a SG where I feel comfortable, I am a Regent(+) player at the moment and involved in TGOMT (or something, Bedes training game anyway) and feel in way over my head.

So this is to see how good I <really> am at both Regent & SGs.
Hope to learn something about the way SG works (when your not in over your head) and Turnlogs are unfamiliar ground to me (still).

I only just started using cats and arti in general, so I hope to pick up here and there on that.
City placement, I am a OCP builder player at heart. Always ended up in having a major tech lead in the Modern Age (? Last age anyway) building a tank or 20 (or so) and winning by either domination or conquest while fighting spears and such....

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I'll take a look at the save later, but a couple quick notes from what I see in my sleep depraved state.

We shouldn't have to steal the other BG for Copan, IIRC. Actually, we could get by with as little as a single BG, and it will look something like this:
Size 4, empty bin: Work BG, cow, 2 mined grass, and city square. Net - 5f, 6s
Size 4, half bin: Work BG, cow, 2 mined grass, and city square. Net - 10f, 12s
On growth (Gov must be set to emphasize prod) we get 2 free shields from the mined hill Net - 0f, 14s
Size 5, empty bin: Work BG, 3 mined grass, cow, and city. Net - 5f, 21s
Size 5, half bin: Work BG, 3 mined grass, cow and city. Net - 10f, 28s
On growth to size 6, again get the two free shields, giving a net of 0f, 30s.
Rinse and repeat. Note that the tile would have to be manually changed from the hill to a mined grass on each growth. Kind of a pain, but if other cities can reach any of the BG's we don't actually need, it could be a more effective use of the shields. If not, then we should be able to put it in set it and forget it mode.

Second thing: how optimistic is everyone that philo is still available, and going to remain so? Can't see the post with our opponents, so I don't know how many started with alpha. Normally I would like the CoL -> philo path here, so we could get Rep for free, but we sort of detoured on a couple other techs along the way. Both Mongols and Portugal could be researching it right now. We could switch to philo now, and it looks like we would lose a turn of research we already have in CoL. Personally, I think it's worth the risk, as I am not at all confident it will still be there in the 18-ish turns it would take us to research both. Anyhow, just throwing it out there, would like to know what you think.

Also, we should pay attention to where Henry puts his next city. If he's venturing that far, there is probably a hidden resource he's heading for. Probably moot since we should own that land by the time anything else is uncovered regardless, but a handy tip nonetheless.

@Mailman - if you are rolling over spears with your tanks at your current difficulty, then I suspect you could already ratchet it up a notch, or two. I always learned best when it was I who had the inferior troops, then your tactics come into play much more. Either way, you're in great hands with the Monk.

Hmm, maybe those notes weren't quite as quick as I thought.

 

[madviking]

Tributes up, sesn on deck

 

[namliaM]

I'll take a look at the save later, but a couple quick notes from what I see in my sleep depraved state.

We shouldn't have to steal the other BG for Copan, IIRC. Actually, we could get by with as little as a single BG, and it will look something like this:
Size 4, empty bin: Work BG, cow, 2 mined grass, and city square. Net - 5f, 6s
Size 4, half bin: Work BG, cow, 2 mined grass, and city square. Net - 10f, 12s
On growth (Gov must be set to emphasize prod) we get 2 free shields from the mined hill Net - 0f, 14s
Size 5, empty bin: Work BG, 3 mined grass, cow, and city. Net - 5f, 21s
Size 5, half bin: Work BG, 3 mined grass, cow and city. Net - 10f, 28s
On growth to size 6, again get the two free shields, giving a net of 0f, 30s.
Rinse and repeat. Note that the tile would have to be manually changed from the hill to a mined grass on each growth. Kind of a pain, but if other cities can reach any of the BG's we don't actually need, it could be a more effective use of the shields. If not, then we should be able to put it in set it and forget it mode.

Yours is starting at 4 mine is at 3.5
Yours (I think) takes a bit more MM
Mine is "on the way" yours we need to "lose" 1 turn
any which way doesnt matter, 30 shields in 4 turns is all that matters.
I am not "steling" anything city 2 and Copan are "sharing" the BGs between them on the 2nd ring .... (eg not within the 9 tile start of a town)

Second thing: how optimistic is everyone that philo is still available, and going to remain so? Can't see the post with our opponents, so I don't know how many started with alpha. Normally I would like the CoL -> philo path here, so we could get Rep for free, but we sort of detoured on a couple other techs along the way. Both Mongols and Portugal could be researching it right now. We could switch to philo now, and it looks like we would lose a turn of research we already have in CoL. Personally, I think it's worth the risk, as I am not at all confident it will still be there in the 18-ish turns it would take us to research both. Anyhow, just throwing it out there, would like to know what you think.

Portugal doesnt have writing yet... Is going to be hard for them to catch up.
Accoording to the excelsheet posted on the forum here there is a 4.27 % change they would choose Phylo, anyway on regent I dont think we need the slingshot (as badly) and want Republic ASAP anyway.

Also, we should pay attention to where Henry puts his next city. If he's venturing that far, there is probably a hidden resource he's heading for. Probably moot since we should own that land by the time anything else is uncovered regardless, but a handy tip nonetheless.

Which is why I am wondering ....

@Mailman - if you are rolling over spears with your tanks at your current difficulty, then I suspect you could already ratchet it up a notch, or two. I always learned best when it was I who had the inferior troops, then your tactics come into play much more. Either way, you're in great hands with the Monk.

Spears is overdone, but it was allways a runover even without using a arti.

Hmm, maybe those notes weren't quite as quick as I thought.

That seems to allways happen to me as well.

 

[Tribute]

k I'm here. I'll play tomorrow. I'll try to see what I can do.

I plan to learn how to play in SG's from this experience as well as how to cooperate with others and set goals, which are acted upon during the game. Oh, and also how to be a warmonger and NOT a builder.

 

[madviking]

Tribute- KICK SOME PORTUGUESE BUTT!!

 

[Whomp]

My goal is always to learn any new tricks that I can.

As you know this forum is the place to do it.

I'd like to brush up on my trading efficiency, and I'm a warmonger at heart,

May or may not be helpful at Regent. I think pushing the tech pace at this level is probably more important. IE Gifting the scientifics into the next age.

so I suppose any sort of builder experience would probably be beneficial. I can build, I just find it boring most time.

To me the key here is the "right" build and not building just because. What I mean is to build for the sake of building.

Other than that, let's meet some new people, and spread the knowledge around.

My favorite part too.

Learnings: I hope to be in a SG where I feel comfortable, I am a Regent(+) player at the moment and involved in TGOMT (or something, Bedes training game anyway) and feel in way over my head.

I think you're not giving yourself enough credit here mailman.

Hope to learn something about the way SG works (when your not in over your head) and Turnlogs are unfamiliar ground to me (still).

Sometimes you just have to ask the question. If you feel it's over your head then say so. It can then be discussed and explained.

I only just started using cats and arti in general, so I hope to pick up here and there on that.

The best way to learn Leader farming.

City placement, I am a OCP builder player at heart. Always ended up in having a major tech lead in the Modern Age (? Last age anyway) building a tank or 20 (or so) and winning by either domination or conquest while fighting spears and such....

Again, at regent this may not be as necessary. However, like sesn said earlier play this to win as early as possible. That said OCP won't work if that's the goal. As Adm Kutzov would say +-80 turn from cav should be the game. Let try for -80.

k I'm here. I'll play tomorrow. I'll try to see what I can do.
I plan to learn how to play in SG's from this experience as well as how to cooperate with others and set goals, which are acted upon during the game.

Good plan Tribute. The way I see it important not only in this forum but in life.

Oh, and also how to be a warmonger and NOT a builder.

OK since madviking is keen on you doing some pounding so here's a quiz.

You go into battle and see 2 reg spears and vet horse. You have in your stack 2 vet swords, a vet horse and a elite horse. How do you lead this charge against the enemy? In what order? Please give your answers inside of a spoiler. You put a spoiler in this way (without the *)
[*spoiler] blah blah[/spoiler]

How about we say no wonders till at least TOE? I think that is an especially good habit to get into right away.

 

[madviking]

You go into battle and see 2 reg spears and vet horse. You have in your stack 2 vet swords, a vet horse and a elite horse. How do you lead this charge against the enemy? In what order?

i'll go vet horse, elite horse, sword, sword

How about we say no wonders till at least TOE? I think that is an especially good habit to get into right away.

uhh, hello! Sun Tzu and Sistine and Shakespeare? I never make in order to build Leonardos, but we are (probably) going to be super smart and taking over the continent. We are going to get bored and have noting to do except wealth.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Spoiler :

Hmm, I'd probably attack with the two swords vs spears first, best chances of winning. What I attacked with next would depend on how I fared in the first two. Either way, you want to attack the horse with a fast mover to avoid a retreat. Since you didn't say what type of terrain, I'll assume grass and risk the elite against the full vet. If there is any sort of defensive bonus, then the vet goes first, and the elite cleans up after. However, if one of the spears survived, that's where the elite horse would go in order to try and pop a leader.

And I'm more than happy to agree with the no wonders. MV, if you want to progress into the higher levels, you need to break your wonder addiction, and just go capture what you want. Ision wrote a great article in the war academy. Good stuff.

 

[Whomp]

I will wait for the others answers. I didn't say what terrain so just assume grass. Another hint: It's not a simple black and white answer.

MadV I said nothing about "taking" wonders just not building them. Your goal here should be the swiftest way to victory. LKendter's 100th game was regent but the variant was we could never leave the ancient age. It was won easily .

 

[Tribute]

I would normally not attack at all, but as you want me to:

Spoiler :

I would attack with the vet sword (3 vs 2.2) and again with the vet sword versus the 2nd spear. The third attack by the elite horse vs horse or spear (if one killed a sword) If redlined spear, then veteran horse.

In emperor, I couldn't get any wonders except Sistine and Shakes. Then ToE and Hoover's. Then UN and Manhattan. Then the game ends with a diplo victory. The goal of my games is to avoid war.

Anyway, with only 10 turns, I doubt I could get troops into position to even attack Portugal. And we don't even have a big army, do we? Looking at the picture, we don't. So I'll try and build up the military. We need spears and swords. Got it.

Still can't play yet though. Finals are coming.

 

[Tribute]

Done! I couldn't get to military building too much. We only produced 2 swords, 2 spears, 2 settlers, and a few workers. But we got in a barracks and almost finished another. We also have 1 more city.

Inherited turn 1500BC
No changes MM chichen itza so that we get 2 more gold and 1 less shield (that would have been wasted). MM Palenque to get the gold hill but still grow in 1 turn
(1) Chichen Itza’s borders expand! Chichen Itza sword to spear in 3 at 7 shields a turn. Move worker near Chichen Itza to the BG near river, while not roading the tile in between. I do this because there is no reason to waste the worker turns on a tile that will not be used for a very long time. The 1 turn saved may prove useful. Worker between Copan and Bonampak roads. Send free warrior south to cross through Japan.
(2) Barracks done in Palenque set to spear for MP. (Building military means high populations.) Switch gold tile person back to irrigated and roaded plains so that it grows in 6 with no waste. Send worker NE of Palenque. Sword from cow tile to Bonampak in 2 more turns. Worker near Tikal to grassland river for irrigation. The city really needs it.
(3) Yaxchilan grows so that barracks is due in 8. Move worker to SW of it, so that the tile can be improved before wartime. Worker near Palenque roads. The stupid Portuguese have settled Lagos north of CI!!! Move worker on hill SE so that it can improve the BG near river tile in 6 turns (while using 7 including the move) instead of using 8 turns to mine the hill.
(4) Toku wants us to leave. CI finishes spear. Set to spear. Spear sent to Copan for MP. Even a builder knows that this is necessary. Lux up to 20% for this 1 turn. Worker on BG near Copan roads. Worker next to Yaxchilan irrigates. I can’t find any barbs anywhere. Maybe there aren’t any?! MM Copan for 1 extra commerce for 1 less production since settler is due in 1 anyway.
(5) Settler done. Tribute has an evil idea to get Copan back to its 4 turn settler state. Send it near Lagos. MM Chichen Itza for 1 extra shield that does absolutely nothing yet. Irrigate to Tikal started. Spear in Copan fortified. Lux tax down to 10%
(6) Toku orders us out. I leave. Tikal Worker -> Spear Moves to connect horses. Hope you guys agree. I’ve been waiting for a while but Toku isn’t getting any gold to give me. So I just trade him Alpha and Pottery for Horseback. Sword tries to see more of the Hittite border. MM Copan for 1 more shield at the cost of 1 commerce.
(7) CI done with spear. Fortify for MP. Start on Sword in 3 but fpt is down to 2. Science to 60%. CoL still due in 2. Palenque switched to sword since it will waste 3 shields out of 4 if it builds the spear next turn compared to 1 for the sword. Worker near Palenque goes to the south of it. (next should be gold hill then grass near river….) Science to 40%
(8) Done CoL start on Philo due in 4 at 100%. But I hold off since we’d have to hire entertainers and mess everything up. MM Copan for extra commerce. It was 1 shield short of a settler Worker moves changed. You’ll see in picture what they’re doing. Lagartero founded. Set to worker.
(9) Sword done in CI. Set to sword. Settler done in Copan set to settler. Worker done in Bonampak. Set to spear. The two workers NW of Bonampak mine together. Copan is relatively set to build settlers in 4 turns! Send settler to game tile to allow for more movement choices later on. Worker next to Yaxchilan irrigates for the next citizen. Sword in CI to Bonampak. I’m serious. There are NO barbarians anywhere! Not even my exploring warriors can find any. Lower science to 80% due in 4
(10) Wait a minute! Did I miscount? For some reason I must have forgotten to record a turn. Oh I’m so confused.

We are technologically advanced over everyone we know. We have the highest score, most power, but least culture. I’m very sad about this.

Save
I still don't know how to make the pictures come up with the text.

 

[Tribute]

Oh I see. I thought it was a jpg and not a gif.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Tribute, your graphics look severly screwed up. Try cleaning the disk and reinstalling ... the minimap shouldn't look like that, and you diplomacy screens are too weird.

Btw, you can have 1 4-turn settler factory and 1 2-turn worker factory if you chop the game by Chichen Itza and irrigate it for 5fpt. Interesting game.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

OK, I see it. Chances of me playing before tomorrow evening aren't all that great though.

Lots of eating, drinking, and being merry to do.