[R&F] Magnus is OP...

[Trengilly]

Me is OP but not due to the early game chops. 40 doubled or tripped isn't that exploitative and you will lose more production over the course of the game.

Heck chopping is what nearly all early civilizations did to drive their growth. Many now barren areas of the world are that way specifically due to early chopping. Its only in the last 100 or so years that we have started to limit our exploitation of the environment - or at least try to make it sustainable.

The really OP part of chopping in Civ6 is in the later game when the chopping yields scale way up and with Magnus and other bonuses you can pull in hundreds of production per chop. On resources that won't provide only +1 benefit over the remaining 100 turns of the game. No one is chopping in Spaceports and other modern buildings today!

I agree with other posters - there should be mid/late game buildings that increase the value of chop/harvestable resources. Or instead of just farms/mines getting a +1 in later years, bonus resources should get another +1 on top. This would increase the opportunity cost of chopping.

But also - the value of chops shouldn't keep growing. It should either remain static or should top out in the Renaissance era.

Overflow is kind of a separate issue.

 

[Thormodr]

Me is OP but not due to the early game chops. 40 doubled or tripped isn't that exploitative and you will lose more production over the course of the game.

Heck chopping is what nearly all early civilizations did to drive their growth. Many now barren areas of the world are that way specifically due to early chopping. Its only in the last 100 or so years that we have started to limit our exploitation of the environment - or at least try to make it sustainable.

The really OP part of chopping in Civ6 is in the later game when the chopping yields scale way up and with Magnus and other bonuses you can pull in hundreds of production per chop. On resources that won't provide only +1 benefit over the remaining 100 turns of the game. No one is chopping in Spaceports and other modern buildings today!

I agree with other posters - there should be mid/late game buildings that increase the value of chop/harvestable resources. Or instead of just farms/mines getting a +1 in later years, bonus resources should get another +1 on top. This would increase the opportunity cost of chopping.

But also - the value of chops shouldn't keep growing. It should either remain static or should top out in the Renaissance era.

Overflow is kind of a separate issue.

The trouble is, with the disastrous introduction of 1UPT to the series, they have to be very careful about production in order to keep carpets of doom from happening. Beefing up production is not something the designers want to do.

I am on board with suggestions in regards to buildings specific to helping increase the value of chopping/harvesting, as well as increasing yields from bonus resources later in the game, like farms do. Not sure how they will manage that with 1UPT, though.

 

[pgm123]

Magnus by himself is not op, magnus with overflow exploit is broken af.

I chopped two forests to get the government tile and Ancestral Hall. Combine that with the Golden Age promotion that lets you buy settlers with faith and the Early Empire card, and I got two settlers up quickly with no population decrease (on his second promotion) and a bonus builder. I know that's a specific set of circumstance, but it's easy to achieve.

 

[Pietato]

The trouble is, with the disastrous introduction of 1UPT to the series, they have to be very careful about production in order to keep carpets of doom from happening. Beefing up production is not something the designers want to do.

I am on board with suggestions in regards to buildings specific to helping increase the value of chopping/harvesting, as well as increasing yields from bonus resources later in the game, like farms do. Not sure how they will manage that with 1UPT, though.

Stop. Make another thread if you want to complain about IUPT.

 

[ezzlar]

Well, chopping. No matter what you build, a large quantity of wood delivered to your doorstep, completes the task. Building in ancient times mostly consisted of waiting for the lumberjacks to deliver wood, say 95% of the time.

And lumberjacks always deliver one tree a time, being environmenralists, whilst builders chop down the whole forest.

I think we could scrap the mechanic as it stands now. Make a chop double or triple the cogs during 5-10 turns or so from that tile.

 

[Athmos]

The main problem is due to the implementation of overflow. Overflow should always use the multiplier of what it is applied to.

For example, if you chop a 70/80 wall for 45 prod with limes, then go into a settler without colonization, you should use 5 of the 45 prod to complete the wall (5+100% = the missing 10 prod), then have 40 remaining production applied to the settler.
If you had both limes and colonization, the settler would receive 40 + 50% = 60 production.

Personally, I like the micromanagement and optimization, I'm somewhat surprised so many people seems to be discovering it more than an year after game release. By the way, the way it is, it's not linked to limes. Limes and the naval unit cards are the best as they provide +100% (it can even get better with limes+monarchy for +150% on walls).
But in the end, overflowing from a unit to apply a 50% production bonus to a district or building can be manipulated as well. Even without chopping, you just have to get as close to the max as possible, then complete the production in one go and you'll get the bonus on the next build. I don't know why they didn't implement it like in civ4, where the overflow is always divided by the previous multiplier then multiplied by the next.
Well, in the end you could still manipulate production overflow with some other mechanisms (slavery in civ4), but frankly overflow is a must. If You suddenly had to get back to civ3 style micromanagement to shift tiles every turn not to waste science, culture or production, I think you'd realize how essential a feature it is, even if the current implementation is a bit poorly thought.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

Athmos nailed it. Chop is fine, both as a mechanic and the rewards it yields. It's only the overflow multiplier cases that get wacky.

That all said, Magnus is still very strong, and puts the others to shame. Nerfing him (and buffing the weaker promotions of the others) would not be inappropriate.

 

[Thormodr]

Stop. Make another thread if you want to complain about IUPT.

Why? It’s completely relevant when someone brings up the idea of increasing production. There is a reason why developers don’t want to do that. So, you stop, please.

 

[Portinou]

The main problem is due to the implementation of overflow. Overflow should always use the multiplier of what it is applied to.

For example, if you chop a 70/80 wall for 45 prod with limes, then go into a settler without colonization, you should use 5 of the 45 prod to complete the wall (5+100% = the missing 10 prod), then have 40 remaining production applied to the settler.
If you had both limes and colonization, the settler would receive 40 + 50% = 60 production.

Personally, I like the micromanagement and optimization, I'm somewhat surprised so many people seems to be discovering it more than an year after game release. By the way, the way it is, it's not linked to limes. Limes and the naval unit cards are the best as they provide +100% (it can even get better with limes+monarchy for +150% on walls).
But in the end, overflowing from a unit to apply a 50% production bonus to a district or building can be manipulated as well. Even without chopping, you just have to get as close to the max as possible, then complete the production in one go and you'll get the bonus on the next build. I don't know why they didn't implement it like in civ4, where the overflow is always divided by the previous multiplier then multiplied by the next.
Well, in the end you could still manipulate production overflow with some other mechanisms (slavery in civ4), but frankly overflow is a must. If You suddenly had to get back to civ3 style micromanagement to shift tiles every turn not to waste science, culture or production, I think you'd realize how essential a feature it is, even if the current implementation is a bit poorly thought.

People are not discoveringg chopping. But as expressed above, the problem that already existed is that the opportunity cost is non existent due to no viable alternative (lumbermills are not worth a mid-game chop).

And now you have a governor whose OPENING ability doubles this bonus. I mean, you need no investment in him to get this. Yesterday, I built Petra in 4 turns medieval era on deity, on a 1 population 1 production desert city, with 3 chops (2 forests 1 stone). Does it feel like Petra was built so easily in history? The point is that the AI does not use Magnus and chopping or at least way sub-optimal. So it gets a no-brainer trick to beat the game. And I hate no-brainers in strategy games.

 

[TomKQT]

I think some minor tweaks could help. And maybe all of them together

• Fix the overflow. It certainly is a bug, when you get a production bonus for walls, you really shouldn't be able to use it also for anything else.
• Maybe don't apply bonus production to chops at all? If you chop a forest for 100 production, you get 100 production even if you currently have a valid active production bonus.
  
• Let this Magnus ability as it is, but make it as his higher promotion, not a starting ability.
• Add some tile improvement for rainforests! They just add +1 food and lower appeal, so unless you are about the make the wonder that improves rainforests, they are almost always being chopped...
• Make lumbermills better? Maybe initially, maybe later?

 

[Athmos]

BTW, the +50% to walls from monarchy is pre-R&F, I forgot to clarify that. And yes, doubling chop output is super strong, probably too strong.

Comparisons to history however is probably misplaced, as in fact a lot of great productions spurs (English fleet comes to mind) came from clear cutting and otherwise exhausting readily available resources.

 

[Athmos]

I think lumber mills should give adjacency bonus to IZ. hills are already disproportionately powerful regarding production compared to other tiles.

 

[TomKQT]

I think lumber mills should give adjacency bonus to IZ. hills are already disproportionately powerful regarding production compared to other tiles.

That's a very good idea. Even if it was just 0.5 per forest. Just make forests more usefull, so that the decision chop/leave is less straight-forward.

 

[Depravo]

Liang has been pretty useful so far. That Aquaculture ability can transform a backwater coastal city with a couple of fishing grounds into a dynamo. (I had absurd map gen luck in my current Island Plates game where half the city states, including Auckland, Toronto and Brussels, spawned behind a bottleneck I alone controlled.)

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I know we're here to talk about chopping, but his Surplus Logistics (+20% Growth in the city. Your Trade Routes ending here provide +2 Food to their starting city.) is very good too.

 

[pgm123]

I know we're here to talk about chopping, but his Surplus Logistics (+20% Growth in the city. Your Trade Routes ending here provide +2 Food to their starting city.) is very good too.

Honestly, I like all of his abilities. The settler ability is pretty solid too, especially if combined with the Golden Age dedication allowing you to purchase settlers with faith. The Black Market ability is like a super Encampment. Though I think they should keep that one because it allows the AI to advance their units.

 

[Gyromancer]

Yeah, it is OP. And it punishes the Cree, who want to keep their bonus resources.

Heck, he's still the best governor for the Cree. Their trader tile control ability works great with the trade snowball, especially once you start settling near your existing trade routes. You just have to settle within three tiles of a resource that's going to have one of your traders walk across. You end up with the strangest looking borders...

 

[UWHabs]

Heck, he's still the best governor for the Cree. Their trader tile control ability works great with the trade snowball, especially once you start settling near your existing trade routes. You just have to settle within three tiles of a resource that's going to have one of your traders walk across. You end up with the strangest looking borders...

Never mind that you don't *have* to chop resources to abuse chopping and Magnus. He's still incredibly powerful for regular jungles and forests, and borderline criminal if you can get Goddess of the Harvest. I mean, chopping a late game crabs tile can yield 700+ gold AND 700+ faith.

 

[72826]

Do Magnus and policy cards stack? Or does Magnus just make the policy card glitchy?

What I mean is, does overflow work without Magnus? Example: 1 turn on Ancient Wall, forest chops for 100 production (example number). With Limes chop for 200? (100+Limes 100% boost) then overflow? Or does overflow only happen because of Magnus?
Also, to my first question, does Magnus add additional 100%? Example: forest chop for 100, Limes +100% becomes 200, Magnus +100% becomes 300?

I hope this makes sense. Thanks for any reply.

 

[UWHabs]

Do Magnus and policy cards stack? Or does Magnus just make the policy card glitchy?

What I mean is, does overflow work without Magnus? Example: 1 turn on Ancient Wall, forest chops for 100 production (example number). With Limes chop for 200? (100+Limes 100% boost) then overflow? Or does overflow only happen because of Magnus?
Also, to my first question, does Magnus add additional 100%? Example: forest chop for 100, Limes +100% becomes 200, Magnus +100% becomes 300?

I hope this makes sense. Thanks for any reply.

Currently, Magnus acts as a bonus before policy cards/Goddess of the Harvest are applied.

So, if your base forest chop is 50, then Magnus adds +100% to that, for a chop of 100. So if you have Goddess of the Harvest, you get 100 faith. If you're running Limes, then the +100% is applied to that amount, meaning you get 200 hammers towards the walls. Hence, Magnus is OP.