[R&F] Magnus is OP...

[kaspergm]

Even without Magnus, I was doing similar things before. Magnus just makes it even more powerful.

Oh, hey, this Campus will take ~20 turns to build? Let's instead build Ancient Walls with the Limes policy. One turn left to complete? Chop, overflow into Campus. Campus finishes next turn.

While I'm know this is the optimal strategy, using policy cards like this feels abusive to me, and something that should be fixed in the game.

 

[kb27787]

It takes wonder sniping to a whole new level... You can basically finish a late game wonder with a few deer/stone... tiles and some woods... just tried it.

 

[Metecury]

Even without Magnus, I was doing similar things before. Magnus just makes it even more powerful.

Oh, hey, this Campus will take ~20 turns to build? Let's instead build Ancient Walls with the Limes policy. One turn left to complete? Chop, overflow into Campus. Campus finishes next turn.

No one is forcing you to exploit the system. Most player do not do this, why modify the governor because a minority of players like to look for cheap and easy ways to get ahead?

 

[PhilBowles]

The chop shouldn't be his default ability. I think Magnus gets progressively less useful as time goes on - aside from the chop and the industrial stack, his abilities are mostly not that useful. But his early game utility is ridiculous relative to the others, and obviously the early game is where you get the opportunity to snowball from rapid acceleration like that.

 

[UWHabs]

Magnus + Limes = wonder at the cost of 1 forest tile. Crazy overflow exploit just got crazier. Especially when combined with goddess of the harvest.

Oh, now I have to go find a copper or crabs tile to chop with Magnus for an insane faith boost.

 

[Athmos]

Chopping/harvesting has been in civ for a long time, and it has always interacted with production multiplier, in more or less "logical" way. It basically creates a gameplay choice between short and long term and has been an essential mechanic for as long as I remember (15 years ?). Workers/builder micromanagement to one-turn a wonder has been in the game since at least civ4.
I'm somewhat surprised that so ma,y players seem to realise its role only now, and mildly concerned that they somehow feel cheated just because others play the game differently.

There are many other production manipulations that might also make a come back now that you get refunded production when failing a wonder, which can be used as a way to store production. I'm curious to see if someone will manage to make use of that, just like purposefully failing a wonder could get a great prod to gold conversion in civ 4.

 

[UWHabs]

Chopping/harvesting has been in civ for a long time, and it has always interacted with production multiplier, in more or less "logical" way. It basically creates a gameplay choice between short and long term and has been an essential mechanic for as long as I remember (15 years ?). Workers/builder micromanagement to one-turn a wonder has been in the game since at least civ4.
I'm somewhat surprised that so ma,y players seem to realise its role only now, and mildly concerned that they somehow feel cheated just because others play the game differently.

There are many other production manipulations that might also make a come back now that you get refunded production when failing a wonder, which can be used as a way to store production. I'm curious to see if someone will manage to make use of that, just like purposefully failing a wonder could get a great prod to gold conversion in civ 4.

The big thing this time to prevent a real cheating with the wonder refund is that there really aren't a lot of bonus modifiers for wonders. I mean, I guess you can get +15% from policy cards, +20% as France, and +15% as Brussels, but that still wouldn't pay off the refund cost. I guess you could get an okay rebate as China, although the early wonders are cheap enough that you don't get a lot back. And most wonders are actually good enough that I would rather finish them rather than get a rebate to something else, especially if I'm not sure when the wonder will actually finish (for example, my current game I just build the Temple of Artemis at like turn 120, I guess not a lot of wonder-hogs in this one).

 

[Starwars]

I kinda hope that they fix this. The overflow thing was certainly a thing before but Magnus just makes it downright silly. I hope they change him around or do something to fix it. Yes yes, we don't *have* to use it but when it is right *there* and easy to make use of, well...

 

[Magil]

No one is forcing you to exploit the system. Most player do not do this, why modify the governor because a minority of players like to look for cheap and easy ways to get ahead?

"No one is forcing you to use the exploit" can be used to justify any game imbalance. The fact of the matter is that if there are incredibly overpowering options, they diminish strategy. This is a strategy game, remember, not a roleplaying game. Perfect balance is of course impossible, but egregiously powerful combinations should always be addressed in some manner.

 

[Portinou]

I personally don’t use the Limes exploit. And still find Magnus OP. 5 turns cooldown is not a limitation if you micromanage a little bit, let’s be honest.

 

[Thormodr]

Just rid of the Limes exploit. It is stupid and unimmersive.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Chopping is great, and with Magnus doubly so.

But by chopping, you give up the alternative benefits provided by ... oops. There really aren't any. Therein lies the game design issue to me.

Make the Sawmill an alternative building to the Workshop giving +2 Production to each old growth Woods in the city. Have the Workshop give +3 Production to each Stone, Copper, and Iron in the city. Make City Parks a new building that gives 1 Tourism and 0.5 Amenities to each old growth Woods in the city.

Do you still chop? Often, yes, but at least you think about it.

Coming into the expansion, many people here anticipated a nerf to chops, with Magnus restoring the strength of chops back to the Vanilla level. I still expect a balance patch to this effect.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I still wasn't able to test this myself, but I believe developers should fix the overflow exploit first and check the rest later. Magnus ability doesn't look that crazy without overflow.

 

[pgm123]

No one is forcing you to exploit the system. Most player do not do this, why modify the governor because a minority of players like to look for cheap and easy ways to get ahead?

Because of online play, they need to remove these kinds of exploits.

The chop shouldn't be his default ability. I think Magnus gets progressively less useful as time goes on - aside from the chop and the industrial stack, his abilities are mostly not that useful. But his early game utility is ridiculous relative to the others, and obviously the early game is where you get the opportunity to snowball from rapid acceleration like that.

I like Black Marketeer. In theory I like Provision, but I always forget to use it. I haven't found the left side to be useful yet. I agree that chop shouldn't be his default ability. Industrialist (+1 production for strategic resources) might be a good default since most cities have generally one or two strategic resources.

 

[Pietato]

Yeah, it is OP. And it punishes the Cree, who want to keep their bonus resources.

 

[SharTeel]

Magnus by himself is not op, magnus with overflow exploit is broken af.

 

[Pietato]

Even without the overflow from Limes, his first ability is still OP. Most of his other abilities suck, though.

 

[Josephias]

Hmm... I suppose I oughta chop and harvest more. I always hate doing it, but if it's that powerful...

Count me on the team who does not like to change too much the environment (so I second Trav'ling Canuck ideas). However, being such a relevant thing it that game, I'm now at least always choping before placing a district/wonder that will remove the feature. It's such a waste if you don't do it.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, it is OP. And it punishes the Cree, who want to keep their bonus resources.

Meh, there's enough forests to bank on that I can live with not harvesting a few stone and deer.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

This is a strategy game, remember, not a roleplaying game.

It's both!