Main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure

[Loppan Torkel]

So, Somalis are worse than other migrants? Why are they especially bad for multiculturalism?

Why do you jump to that conclusion? Have you had some bad experience from Somalis?

20 000 is not a very large percentage of a country like Sweden's population, dude. 20 thousand into ten million, I think is 0.002%.

Try again. Also, that's over the last three years only.

There were actually about 10 000 Somalis in Australia in 2006, we'll see how that number has changed with the next census, but I bet the Sudanese population will have risen quite a bit faster than the Somali.

So, now something is wrong with the Sudanese people? What did they ever do to you?

For the record, as of 2006 there's about 20 000 Sudanese born Australians, are they less worse than the same number of Somalis?

That isn't much for a country of your size.

What about 250 000 Lebanese Australians or 80 000 Iraqi Australians or 60 000 Egyptian Australians?

Are they on work visas or something? Why would that be a problem?

Again, the difference between Australia and Sweden is not the number or quality of the migrants. You haven't explained why you think people entering European countries to work or be with their families are so much "worse" than people entering Australia doing the same thing - this weird mumbling about Somalis in Sweden doesn't really cut it.

Care to explain what you're insinuating by me bringing up Somalis into the discussion rather than Irishmen or Poles. Did I cross a line to become a racist? I'd like you to answer this - Which group in Sweden do you think have the higher unemployment rate - Poles or Somalis? If I'm to argue that multiculturalism isn't working out in all aspects, should I point to the group that integrates well into society and contributes economically or another group that hasn't been as successful? This "weird mumbling of Somalis in Sweden" was a question to determine if Australia receive immigrants from cultures that may have a more difficult time adapting to a western society, not just well educated Iranians. It seems you're a bit stricter there.

Besides which, a lot of Somalis will be on humanitarian visas, and refugee and asylum seeker entry isn't really the same thing as a country's migration policy.

They'll still be a part of the multicultural society.

 

[Arwon]

You're still confusing migration and humanitarian entry. They're different things and cannot be lumped together as one single phenomenon. Is your complaint now about the very concept of resettling refugees and asylum seekers, since you seem to accept foreigners migrating under work or family visa programs?

If a group entering a country is predominantly refugees, such as Sudanese or Somalis (or Lebanese or Vietnamese in the past) of course they're going to have a harder time at first.

(Also, you know Australia only has 20 million people, right? That's only twice the population of Sweden)

 

[Camikaze]

Why would that be a problem?

That's exactly the point. It isn't a problem.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

You're still confusing migration and humanitarian entry. They're different things and cannot be lumped together as one single phenomenon. Is your complaint now about the very concept of resettling refugees and asylum seekers, since you seem to accept foreigners migrating under work or family visa programs?

I'm not complaining, I see a reason for why the politicians now are stating that multiculturalism isn't working out in all aspects. How immigrants get here through working visas or as refugees of course impacts their chance of contributing economically, but it doesn't change them from both contributing to multiculturalism. Until now, politicians have thought that more or less all will integrate over time and be a contributing factor in society. If that doesn't happen naturally and people seclude themselves, some incentives might be needed.

If a group entering a country is predominantly refugees, such as Sudanese or Somalis (or Lebanese or Vietnamese in the past) of course they're going to have a harder time at first.

(Also, you know Australia only has 20 million people, right? That's only twice the population of Sweden)

It was you who brought it up that 20 000 was nothing for Sweden. 20 000 over the last three years. That's over 0,5% of our population. Given their low employment rate and our generous welfare - it's pretty costly. Either you refuse refugees, pick your immigrants more selective or you change your integration policies. Thinking that the 'multicultural society' have some inherent solving powers, which politicians here have thought a good while, won't help.

 

[Camikaze]

Italy alone has probably had to deal with more refugees this past week alone than Australia has seen within half a decade.

The statistics I can find for 2009-10 (that is, a one year period) are 13770 refugees. And last year there were almost 7000 asylum seeking arrivals by boat. I don't know what exactly you're trying to prove here, or what Italy having a larger number of refugee arrivals actually means to a debate on multiculturalism.

 

[Arwon]

And yes, it is still too small an intake.

 

[Arwon]

I'm not complaining, I see a reason for why the politicians now are stating that multiculturalism isn't working out in all aspects. How immigrants get here through working visas or as refugees of course impacts their chance of contributing economically, but it doesn't change them from both contributing to multiculturalism. Until now, politicians have thought that more or less all will integrate over time and be a contributing factor in society. If that doesn't happen naturally and people seclude themselves, some incentives might be needed.It was you who brought it up that 20 000 was nothing for Sweden. 20 000 over the last three years. That's over 0,5% of our population. Given their low employment rate and our generous welfare - it's pretty costly. Either you refuse refugees, pick your immigrants more selective or you change your integration policies. Thinking that the 'multicultural society' have some inherent solving powers, which politicians here have thought a good while, won't help.

Yeah no, not really.

In Australia we had much the same issues with Vietnamese refugees and migrants in the aftermath of the war. High unemployment, a young population with a lot of trauma and PTSD issues, lack of education and skills, crime problems. Cabramatta, a suburb of Sydney, was notorious as a Vietnamese ghetto and you had regular moral panic news stories about all these Vietnamese thugs terrorising good decent people.

Pretty much exactly the same issues that Sudanese in Australia or Somalis in Sweden are facing, really.

The solution wasn't to whinge about multiculturalism or end refugee intakes (a UN obligation), the solution was to give it time for demographics to shift, for families to join current refugees via family migration, and to give the community more support, resources, training, and so forth (dep cuts by the NSW government to free language classes and other migrant support services was not exactly helpful to the new Vietnamese community).

Incidentally, Vietnamese Australians are now nearly 1% of the population and people have almost totally forgotten there were ever serious questions about their integration. Now the new bogeymen are Iraqis and Sudanese.

Managing refugee intakes is a logistical policy issue, about dealing with and helping a disadvantaged group in society. It's nothing to do with "multiculturalism" or other relatively nebulous cultural policies. What you describe is a concrete failure of policy to support a segment of the population, partly based on the assumption that they'll just be like everyone else. That ain't multiculturalism, it's just crappy refugee support. And it's actually quite potentially rooted in a poor understanding of the culture in question.

 

[aelf]

A Scandinavian poster posting about the failure of multiculturalism. Why am I not surprised?

Anyway, what exactly is wrong with multiculturalism? Will you fight each other if not everybody shops in IKEA or something? Why do you even care about what kind of culture other people identify with? This sounds positively medieval.

 

[Masada]

Anyway, what exactly is wrong with multiculturalism? Will you fight each other if not everybody shops in IKEA or something? Why do you even care about what kind of culture other people identify with?

Disgusting Swede bastards forcing their putrid culture on Awstralians. Disgusting bastards. Awstralia is for the Awstralia and not you foriegn puke bastards.

 

[bernie14]

i was reading a little more about this issue and get the impression that it has nothing to do with multiculturalism....but with muslims in particular.....so what are the factors that allow or prevent positive cultural interactions/assimilation?

 

[Masada]

Yes, the Brit-fags refuse to adopt a proper manner of speech and like to complain about Awstralia. Send the buggers back to blighty. And the Suud Afrikans do all the same but worse. What a bunch of ingrates. Send the buggers back to blackey. They're no Muslims. But at least the Muslims don't look like orange freaking harpies hell bent on eating Awstralian children. Disgusting. Abhorrent. And frankly unAwstralian.

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[Mise]

So the main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure is 20,000 Somalis?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You're trying hard to justify your beliefs with some handpicked and in the end fairly irrelevant numbers.

Next sentence:

Sweden has permitted residency for about 20 000 Somalis the last three years.

I love you guys

You're still hoping that this glorified stew is true and magically will appear in a multicultural society. It doesn't. In an American society where you're left to take care of yourself to a greater degree, groups that aren't competitive will have to adjust or just get by.

And if you look at New York for instance, all those cultures got along swimmingly from day 1, or did it take a couple of generations to get where they are now?

 

[otago]

Or Irish. Don't forget the bloody Irish, and their stews and their drinking and their overcrowding of apartment blocks.

(You can't if you have ever lived around Randwick and Coogee)

Dear oh dear that is taking multicultural to the extreme, mixing with ex state school types in Coogee.
No wonder I found Mossman to my liking.

 

[Masada]

So the main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure is 20,000 Somalis?

There's like a million yippies and pomps here. Purge the lot of them. No tolerance for bad English, foul manners and disgusting food.

 

[El_Machinae]

Moderator Action: Well, that's enough racist trolling.
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[Leonel]

So the main reason for seeing 'multiculturalism' as a failure is 20,000 Somalis?

Damn it! Why couldn't there have just been 19,999 Somalis? WHEN WILL THEY EVER LEARN?!

 

[aelf]

I just read what David Cameron calls a failure of "multiculturalism": The alienation of British Muslim youth and the resulting home-grown terrorism. Alienating other people doesn't sound like an active policy of multiculturalism, so it's not multiculturalism that failed but the British failing at multiculturalism, if anything.

So what are you gonna do? Close the borders? Make immigrants take ridiculous tests like Vault City? Are all Scandinavians like AL_DA_GREAT? Maybe you're right - I wouldn't like you in my country.

 

[Traitorfish]

So what are you gonna do? Close the borders?

Pfft, nah. Cameron & Co. are quite enthusiastic about immigration to the extent that it represents an economic opportunity, they just worry about it destroying "British culture" (which is to say, "English culture", but with the generous proviso that Jockos, Taffies and Pads get to sit quietly at the back). Segregation and alienation are neither unfortunate side-effects of multiculturalism nor a failure of multiculturalism, but the product of a concious struggle against multiculturalism on the part of the establishment. And that includes the centre-"left", whatever our ill-informed reactionaries may cry- Cameron is merely stating outright what they had been hinting at for years; "Britishness" was a New Labour pet project, after all. If there's a difference, it's that the centre-left favours assimilationism, while the Tories would rather that foreigners were all just sent home once they have out-lived their economic usefulness.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

So what are you gonna do? Close the borders? Make immigrants take ridiculous tests like Vault City? Are all Scandinavians like AL_DA_GREAT? Maybe you're right - I wouldn't like you in my country.

What the heck do you have against Scandinavians anyway? You got briefly detained at an airport for lacking documentation, get over it.

What we should do is only let people in who are useful and who are easy to integrate, surprise surprise, educated people from the Netherlands are closer to us culture-wise and more skilled workers for relevant jobs than Somali analphabets, letting the former in but not the latter is not racist, its just common sense.