Making a new Magic System Part I: Summons

[Valkrionn]

yeah, this is going to be a cheap ripoff heavily inspired by Master of Magic

Was speaking more of the way it seems to be nearly exactly what I posted a few days ago, but hey.

Never played MoM, so I wouldn't know.

 

[Sephi]

@sephi i just saw you update to the op:
maybe add a fourth spellschool:

arcane:
-dimensional
-metamagic
-force
-body
-enchantment

light magic -> buffs
dark magic ->debuffs
elementalism ->damage
arcane -> utility

ideas for promotions/spells:
-deals damage per round until removed (for debuffs)
-decrease first strike change / withdrawal change (i don't know if this is already possible)
-chance for immediate death, based on caster to victim level difference (like dnd spell finger of death)
-% of damage done by spell is gained in health (life drain spells)
-counterspell (a mage can use turn preparing a counterspell (cheap to cast) and will annul the first enemy spell that is casted the next round in an adjective tile)

There will be a handful of utility spells like dispel magic that are available to all magic schools. With 4 magic schools each of them would not have enough spells.

edit: How about giving each Summon a unique spell?

 

[Neomega]

Maybe you can keep this in mind, since you seem to be starting with a blank slate with the magic system.

I find the promotional spells incredibly tedious. I hate taking my brand new mage and marching it all over the empire giving units poisoned blade, then flaming arrows, then back to poisoned blade, while my adept goes around giving courage. I look on the map, and search through stacks, and stack up a whoel bunch of recon units in one tile, so I can give them poison blade, cast it... and then... DAMMIT.... I forgot about the new ranger!! Plus this seriously gets rid of the AI having problems giving all its archers flaming arrows.

It's a massively micromanaging system.
I would like it a lot better, if perhaps, you could just upgrade in any city, kind of like when getting bronze weapons. I have never felt that getting units a bronze upgrade as tedious.
I guess the way to do this would be like, by having 2 nature/arcane mana and "poisons" gives poison blade to all units that are in or pass through a city. Maybe even just make it you have to get back to your cultural borders.

Other ideas would be like for courage, you would only need one spirit/light mana and mysticism, etc.

Another idea would be maybe something like only certain units can get certain buffs, and then just drop the entire battle buff system. For example, only recon could get blur, but it would be constant blur, as long as the mana was available.

just thinking out loud again.

Ive actually been modeling in Blender and messing around with the Blender game engine because many of FFH and indeed civ IV's weaknesses have been brought up this week, (and because MAF's made my computer unable to cope beyond turn 370 pretty much). One of them I have been thinking is the spell system should be less tedious.

Another thing kind of bugging me about WM, but FFH in general, is ho many buffs you can give a unit. I mean you must be able to cast like 10 different permanent buffs, plus another 10 different battle buffs. It just seems so messy and again tedious to make sure every units has every single buff, before you go into battle.

 

[Sephi]

how exactly are you planning on changing the ui?

I will send you my dev version tomorrow, then you can see how mana and faith are displayed. The symbols for them are in assets\res\fonts\gamefonts.tga (the 75 file must be edited too)

If you can make symbols size 20x20 in an independent file, thats enough, I can put them into the gamefonts file (the file is a bit tricky and easy to screw up). The problem is to get quality 20x20 size icons.

 

[tesb]

There will be a handful of utility spells like dispel magic that are available to all magic schools. With 4 magic schools each of them would not have enough spells.

i just made this suggestion for story reasons, some magic spheres just don't seem to fit in those three categories. I don't know if i agree on dispel magic for all, it would make the schools less unique (you can have a similar effect but a different spell with different side effects). I will make as many spells as possible so that your argument will loose its weight

edit: How about giving each Summon a unique spell?

fire elemental: ignite -> places a debuff on the enemy that deals damage per turn, has wear off change
water elemental: crushing waves -> deals massive damage to ships
earth elemental: smash walls -> damages city defenses; shake earth -> places debuff on enemies increasing the movement cost, deals minor damage
air elemental: raging winds -> places debuff on all archers near it significantly reducing their strength

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'm with Neomega on this one, I gotta say I've always considered marching adepts around teaching spells to be tedious. what's this "Faith" thing aside from mana though?

 

[tesb]

@sephi if you include the dimensional spells as a regular magic sphere (and not as items like i have done) then do not forget to put the Planar Binding summons on your list (both the evil and good version).

(i hope you make it a magic sphere )

 

[tesb]

I will send you my dev version tomorrow, then you can see how mana and faith are displayed. The symbols for them are in assets\res\fonts\gamefonts.tga (the 75 file must be edited too)

If you can make symbols size 20x20 in an independent file, thats enough, I can put them into the gamefonts file (the file is a bit tricky and easy to screw up). The problem is to get quality 20x20 size icons.

it should be sufficient if you sent me just the files that need replacement and some screenshots on how they are displayed. this would save you from uploading the whole dev version.

 

[tesb]

I find the promotional spells incredibly tedious. I hate taking my brand new mage and marching it all over the empire giving units poisoned blade, then flaming arrows, then back to poisoned blade, while my adept goes around giving courage. I look on the map, and search through stacks, and stack up a whoel bunch of recon units in one tile, so I can give them poison blade, cast it... and then... DAMMIT.... I forgot about the new ranger!! Plus this seriously gets rid of the AI having problems giving all its archers flaming arrows.

suggestion: when you are in a city with mage guild and have the appropriate mana any unit applicable for an enchantment can get the promotion. this would cost more mana then using adepts however. it is basically a different spell that applies the same promotion and is only castable in cities you own with a mage guild on a per unit basis.

 

[Valkrionn]

suggestion: when you are in a city with mage guild and have the appropriate mana any unit applicable for an enchantment can get the promotion. this would cost more mana then using adepts however. it is basically a different spell that applies the same promotion and is only castable in cities you own with a mage guild on a per unit basis.

Hmm... Sometimes I think you people have broken into the RifE team forum haha.

 

[tesb]

Hmm... Sometimes I think you people have broken into the RifE team forum haha.

fear my mind-reading powers

First two spells are ready:
Death I:
Eneveration:
-30% Resist
-Affects enemy living units
-applies promotion with the same name (-100% resist from death damage, -10% healrate, 50% chance to wear off, -10%combat strength)

Death II:
Black Fire
-applies promotion with the same name to all your units in the stack (-1 combat strength +10% strength, +1 death combat strength)

those spells are made to compliment each other. alone they are not that good.

Spoiler :

@sephi
if you like my suggestion in post #29 i can add those spells too


Edit:
Entropy II
Energy Drain:
applies promotion with the same name to enemies (-10% experience rate, -20%strength, 5% expire chance) if the enemy wins a combat he will gain this promotion again up to a maximum of three times.

Edit 2:
Meta Magic III
Anti Magic Shell:
gives the caster magic immunity

Edit 3:
@Sephi is it possible that you provide me with a tag for promotionsinfos that will trigger a specified damage type (and amount) each turn? (aka a dot) i could use this for fire III, death III maybe some other spells as well
for example:
each turn the unit lakes 5% poison damage

 

[lemonjelly]

Can I use them buttons please?

If Valk doesn't use them, I really would like to in Fallen Ages

Well, I may go through and take loads of buttons from WildMana if that's okay with you Sephi
I already plan to take the Purity Counter for the Elohim, well the idea

 

[Tarquelne]

I don't know if i agree on dispel magic for all, it would make the schools less unique

I strongly agree with that. In fact, I'd go so far as to say....

Having one expendable summen per spellschool sounds good to me (Elementalism will have fireball).

I'd prefer that weren't the case, too. If Elementalism is the only school with an expendable Summon, that helps make Elementalism unique. Which sounds good to me. (Actually, from the OP it looks like "Dark" may be the only one without an expendable summons. Sounds good too. )

OTOH, as tesb mentioned and maybe you had in mind all along, different schools might get the same effect different ways. Different enough for functional differences. For example:

Meta - Dispel: AoE, per-unit chance-to-fail.
Light - Purity: Only removes debufs from friendlies, always works.
Dark - Arcane Corruption: Higher tier than others, always works, on enemy targets replaces buff with corresponding de-buff. (On friendlies replaces debuf with 1 turn +1 attack/-1 def "Bersker" type buff?)

I really like the idea of making each Summon special somehow, too. Though with all the different possible unit and promotion abilities I doubt each will need a spell. (In fact, *every* Summon having a spell would make each less unique.)

Skeletons, for example, could have an increased chance to defend the stack rather than Fear. Or even Guardsman.

(OTOH, I can certainly see saving "increased chance to defend" for some other unit - to make *it* unique. Then giving Skels. the T1 Fear, consistent with the other Death summons.)

It just needs to be limited in numbers so that there is no more summon 25 free units every turn boredom anymore.

Yay!

And "Yay" in general.

I'm also happy to see that the AI will understand the new system. Though no less that expected from you.

I liked Nomega's point about taking the opportunity to lower micro.

IIRC FF allowed casters to create a building that handed out buffs to passing units. Making more buff spells AoE could help, too. And allowing the presence of a caster to maintain a buff. Though autocasting may be better.

If the number of mages goes down a lot, or if the mana costs get reasonably tight you could allow 1 mage to buff units regardless of location. (Though within civ's territory, or maybe cities, sounds good.) Or more permanent buffs.

So far as tactical gameplay goes, I like needing to renew buffs each turn. It's just often a PITA to perform. ("Ok now, which mage has Shadowwalk but not Dispel?")

 

[Tarquelne]

just make it so that each node of mana gives X amount of mana per turn and you're set. of course each type of mana would generate its own pool, so you'd have a good reason to hoard a certain type if you're going to rely heavily on it.

I'd like that, though as Valk. mentions it might be too hard/detailed/whatever for the AI, or the system in general.

OTOH - you could make mana-types available matter more if any of the following were true:

1) units always need the mana type present to get the next sphere promotion.
2) units always need the mana type present to get cast an spell of that sphere
3) casters get a bonus to effect, duration, or whatever is appropriate based on the # of type-mana available.
4) casters get a "mana point" discount for casting based on # of type-mana available. (So lots of Body nodes is kinda like more Body mana points.)


*****

BTW: It'd be very appropriate for some or all of the Scion Necropolis "Harvested Life Essence" to become Mana points rather than Hammers.

Also: Alcinus was originally supposed to help with Rituals. Maybe he could act to increase mana points, give discounts, or something... but only while's around, of course.

 

[tesb]

Can I use them buttons please?

If Valk doesn't use them, I really would like to in Fallen Ages

Well, I may go through and take loads of buttons from WildMana if that's okay with you Sephi
I already plan to take the Purity Counter for the Elohim, well the idea

of course considering that those are just slightly modified buttons from ice wind dale 2

 

[tesb]

@sephi an other good idea/tag for promotioninfos would be a tag that allows to deal damage when the promotion is removed:
Ice magic II: freeze/shatter mechanic
Erath III: Flesh to stone: applies a promotion that deals massive damage when removed, is removed by combat
...

 

[Calavente]

1) mana should be equally obtainable for the bannor as for the kuriotates(only 3cities, so few mana points if linked to buildings or mana sources).
So maybe "mana" should not be only linked to mana nodes, nor to buildings.

maybe : scientist /GS gives some mana points/turn, (so by building big cities and small land, you can still obtain some more mana)
maybe : mana nodes/source gives some
maybe : mage guild, library, alchemist lab...
maybe some wonders ?
maybe also 1pt/turn per adept or per mage/archmage ?

2) other balance points :
maybe mage should spend less points on lvl1 spell than adept + can use lvl2spells
and archmage spend less points on lvl 1 spell and lvl 2spell than mage + can use lvl 3spells ?

ex : if there are decimales of mana :
no chanelling (bambur, ratha, firebow...etc) = full cost ;
chanelling1/adept = 2/3 cost,
chan2/mage =1/2 cost (3/4of adept),
chan3/archmage-druid = 1/3 cost (1/2 of adept).

thus at least you have to have :
lvl 1 costs 1 for adept, it costs 1.5 for non chanelling unit, , 0,75 for chan2unit, and 0,5 for chan3unit.
then lvl2 spell costs 2 = 1 for chan2unit; 0,75 for chan3unit ;
and lvl3 spell costs 3 = 1point for chan3unit.

3)second question :
won't that way of doing magic be a disadvantage for say : amurites, luirchips ? those in particular have possibility of many fireball launching units. They have thus, possibly, many possibility of spending mana and they were balanced with that in mind ! but by changing the system they may not have much more mana income than other civs (add to that rathas...Etc)

+ for luirchips, fireball golem is very important to have them not totally outpowered by others civs (they are already nerfed compared to base FFH, but if you "nerf" their use of fireballs, they might be really underpowered).

my 0.2


did you thought about this point :
are mana points "stackable" from 1 turn to another if not used (as gold?)
or are mana points "possibilities", counting just for the turn, usable, but lost if not used in this turn ? (aka movement points, but for the whole civ)

 

[Sephi]

Maybe you can keep this in mind, since you seem to be starting with a blank slate with the magic system.

I find the promotional spells incredibly tedious. I hate taking my brand new mage and marching it all over the empire giving units poisoned blade, then flaming arrows, then back to poisoned blade, while my adept goes around giving courage. I look on the map, and search through stacks, and stack up a whoel bunch of recon units in one tile, so I can give them poison blade, cast it... and then... DAMMIT.... I forgot about the new ranger!! Plus this seriously gets rid of the AI having problems giving all its archers flaming arrows.

It's a massively micromanaging system.
I would like it a lot better, if perhaps, you could just upgrade in any city, kind of like when getting bronze weapons. I have never felt that getting units a bronze upgrade as tedious.
I guess the way to do this would be like, by having 2 nature/arcane mana and "poisons" gives poison blade to all units that are in or pass through a city. Maybe even just make it you have to get back to your cultural borders.

Other ideas would be like for courage, you would only need one spirit/light mana and mysticism, etc.

Another idea would be maybe something like only certain units can get certain buffs, and then just drop the entire battle buff system. For example, only recon could get blur, but it would be constant blur, as long as the mana was available.

just thinking out loud again.

Ive actually been modeling in Blender and messing around with the Blender game engine because many of FFH and indeed civ IV's weaknesses have been brought up this week, (and because MAF's made my computer unable to cope beyond turn 370 pretty much). One of them I have been thinking is the spell system should be less tedious.

Another thing kind of bugging me about WM, but FFH in general, is ho many buffs you can give a unit. I mean you must be able to cast like 10 different permanent buffs, plus another 10 different battle buffs. It just seems so messy and again tedious to make sure every units has every single buff, before you go into battle.

I am thinking of this

Global Enchantments: Applied to all units as long as the enchantment is in place. Costs decent mana cost to cast and has mana cost per turn

Enchantments as combat auras that can be toggled on/off. Has limited targets in Stack. Adept could enchant 2 blades, mage 4 and archmage 6, for examle.

 

[Sephi]

i just made this suggestion for story reasons, some magic spheres just don't seem to fit in those three categories. I don't know if i agree on dispel magic for all, it would make the schools less unique (you can have a similar effect but a different spell with different side effects). I will make as many spells as possible so that your argument will loose its weight

dispel magic will be very different

 

[Sephi]

fear my mind-reading powers

First two spells are ready:
Death I:
Eneveration:
-30% Resist
-Affects enemy living units
-applies promotion with the same name (-100% resist from death damage, -10% healrate, 50% chance to wear off, -10%combat strength)

Death II:
Black Fire
-applies promotion with the same name to all your units in the stack (-1 combat strength +10% strength, +1 death combat strength)

those spells are made to compliment each other. alone they are not that good.

Spoiler :

@sephi
if you like my suggestion in post #29 i can add those spells too


Edit:
Entropy II
Energy Drain:
applies promotion with the same name to enemies (-10% experience rate, -20%strength, 5% expire chance) if the enemy wins a combat he will gain this promotion again up to a maximum of three times.

Edit 2:
Meta Magic III
Anti Magic Shell:
gives the caster magic immunity

Edit 3:
@Sephi is it possible that you provide me with a tag for promotionsinfos that will trigger a specified damage type (and amount) each turn? (aka a dot) i could use this for fire III, death III maybe some other spells as well
for example:
each turn the unit lakes 5% poison damage

I will take a look at it later. First need to design the combat auras for the Summons