Making College Admissions more Meritocratic

What can we do to make colleges more meritocratic?


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downtown

Crafternoon Delight
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Saw an interesting article about Admissions policies at Amherst that I thought you guys may be interested in. It's a little long to quote the whole thing (2 pages), but I highly encourage you to check it out. Here is a snippet:

NYT said:
The last four presidents of the United States each attended a highly selective college. All nine Supreme Court justices did, too, as did the chief executives of General Electric (Dartmouth), Goldman Sachs (Harvard), Wal-Mart (Georgia Tech), Exxon Mobil (Texas) and Google (Michigan).
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Samuel A. Masinter/Amherst College

Anthony Marx presided over his final graduation at Amherst College on Sunday. He led big gains in diversity at Amherst.
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Like it or not, these colleges have outsize influence on American society. So their admissions policies don’t matter just to high school seniors; they’re a matter of national interest.

More than seven years ago, a 44-year-old political scientist named Anthony Marx became the president of Amherst College, in western Massachusetts, and set out to change its admissions policies. Mr. Marx argued that elite colleges were neither as good nor as meritocratic as they could be, because they mostly overlooked lower-income students.

For all of the other ways that top colleges had become diverse, their student bodies remained shockingly affluent. At the University of Michigan, more entering freshmen in 2003 came from families earning at least $200,000 a year than came from the entire bottom half of the income distribution. At some private colleges, the numbers were even more extreme.

In his 2003 inaugural address, Mr. Marx — quoting from a speech President John F. Kennedy had given at Amherst — asked, “What good is a private college unless it is serving a great national purpose?”

.....

When we spoke recently, he mentioned a Georgetown University study of the class of 2010 at the country’s 193 most selective colleges. As entering freshmen, only 15 percent of students came from the bottom half of the income distribution. Sixty-seven percent came from the highest-earning fourth of the distribution. These statistics mean that on many campuses affluent students outnumber middle-class students.

“We claim to be part of the American dream and of a system based on merit and opportunity and talent,” Mr. Marx says. “Yet if at the top places, two-thirds of the students come from the top quartile and only 5 percent come from the bottom quartile, then we are actually part of the problem of the growing economic divide rather than part of the solution.”


.....

The truth is that many of the most capable low- and middle-income students attend community colleges or less selective four-year colleges close to their home. Doing so makes them less likely to graduate from college at all, research has shown. Incredibly, only 44 percent of low-income high school seniors with high standardized test scores enroll in a four-year college, according to a Century Foundation report — compared with about 50 percent of high-income seniors who have average test scores.

“The extent of wasted human capital,” wrote the report’s authors, Anthony P. Carnevale and Jeff Strohl, “is phenomenal.”

This comparison understates the problem, too, because SAT scores are hardly a pure measure of merit. Well-off students often receive SAT coaching and take the test more than once, Mr. Marx notes, and top colleges reward them for doing both. Colleges also reward students for overseas travel and elaborate community service projects. “Colleges don’t recognize, in the same way, if you work at the neighborhood 7-Eleven to support your family,” he adds.

Several years ago, William Bowen, a former president of Princeton, and two other researchers found that top colleges gave no admissions advantage to low-income students, despite claims to the contrary. Children of alumni received an advantage. Minorities (except Asians) and athletes received an even bigger advantage. But all else equal, a low-income applicant was no more likely to get in than a high-income applicant with the same SAT score. It’s pretty hard to call that meritocracy.

.....

The effort starts with financial aid. The college has devoted more of its resources to aid, even if the dining halls don’t end up being as fancy as those at rival colleges. Outright grants have replaced most loans, not just for poor students but for middle-class ones. The college has started a scholarship for low-income foreign students, who don’t qualify for Pell Grants. And Amherst officials visit high schools they had never visited before to spread the word.


The college has also started using its transfer program mostly to admit community college students. This step may be the single easiest way for a college to become more meritocratic. It’s one reason the University of California campuses in Berkeley, Los Angeles and San Diego are so much more diverse than other top colleges.

Many community colleges have horrifically high dropout rates, but the students who succeed there are often inspiring. They include war veterans, single parents and immigrants who have managed to overcome the odds. At Amherst this year, 62 percent of transfer students came from a community college.

Finally, Mr. Marx says Amherst does put a thumb on the scale to give poor students more credit for a given SAT score. Not everyone will love that policy. “Spots at these places are precious,” he notes. But I find it tough to argue that a 1,300 score for most graduates of Phillips Exeter Academy — or most children of Amherst alumni — is as impressive as a 1,250 for someone from McDowell County, W.Va., or the South Bronx.

The result of these changes is that Amherst has a much higher share of low-income students than almost any other elite college. By itself, of course, Amherst is not big enough to influence the American economy. But its policies could affect the economy if more colleges adopted them.

Check out the full article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/business/economy/25leonhardt.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

basically, the Amherst Strategy meant that the university:
1) Devoted more of it's budget to providing grants and aid, even at the expense of physical university improvements
2) adopted a more liberal transfer policy (over 50% of their transfers came from Community Colleges
3) gave more credit towards good SAT scores from students in disadvantaged economic situations

What do you guys think? Do you feel the application process at top schools is meritocratic? Would you be okay with your school (or alma mater) taking the Amherst approach? What are other things schools could do? Do you agree with Mr.Marx?
 
1. Poor kids are far less likely to graduate high school
2. Poor kids usually get worse grades
3. Poor kids usually score worse on their SATs

You have three things to base merit on. The majority of the weight is given to grades in school and SAT/ACT test scores and also community service and extra-curricular activities. Rich kids do all three better. If you based it completely on Merit, it would probably be even more skewed to favor well-to-do kids. If it wasn't for affirmative action, the ratio would be even higher.
 
1. Poor kids are far less likely to graduate high school
2. Poor kids usually get worse grades
3. Poor kids usually score worse on their SATs

You have three things to base merit on. The majority of the weight is given to grades in school and SAT/ACT test scores and also community service and extra-curricular activities. Rich kids do all three better. If you based it completely on Merit, it would probably be even more skewed to favor well-to-do kids. If it wasn't for affirmative action, the ratio would be even higher.

Did you read the article?
 
We need something that can bridge the gap between potential/drive/intelligence, and the foundations needed to take full advantage of the education offered at selective schools. Wealthy kids get those foundations from having well-educated parents. Just getting lower income students into the schools in the first place is far from enough with high dropout rates even when controlled for financial problems.
 
The article doesn't say that affluent students are being accepted over less affluent students, just attending a lot more. It may very well be personal financial issues that makes the less affluent students choose cheaper options. It may be a case of these less affluent students not being able to attend unless they receive a full scholarship - simply being accepted isn't enough.

I think higher education is way too expensive to begin with though.

The article makes it seem like these colleges only accept students from wealthy families, but

top colleges gave no admissions advantage to low-income students, despite claims to the contrary. Children of alumni received an advantage. Minorities (except Asians) and athletes received an even bigger advantage. But all else equal, a low-income applicant was no more likely to get in than a high-income applicant with the same SAT score.

doesn't say that at all. It just says it gives no advantage to low-income students (but angrily does give advantage to minority students which to me is racist). A low-income applicant is no more likely to get in than a high-income applicant with the same SAT score. What's wrong with that? Why should a low-income student be more likely to get in? That would not be fair to the high-income student. The financial situation of the student should not be a consideration at all (and neither should race).

But all else equal, a low-income applicant was no more likely to get in than a high-income applicant with the same SAT score. It’s pretty hard to call that meritocracy.

I wonder what "financial situation" has to do with "merit". Again, if a person cannot afford to attend, it's not the college's problem, no matter how I feel about higher education being too expensive. I don't think they're looking at student family finances and basing their admissions decisions on them. "Oh this one will never afford it, but this one can."

And, umm, using Berkely as a good example is a bad idea. Isn't that the campus that didn't allow Marine recruiters? Yep, let's follow their example!

Financial aid helps, a ton. But I stress that admissions should not be based on finances, race, anything like that. If they want it to be based on merit, base it on merit. Advantages based on finances or race mean disadvantages based on finances or race for others.
 
Did you read the article?

Yeah I did, but it doesn't address the 3 points I posted above. If you want to base it on Merit, the three most obvious things are Grades/Test Scores/Extracurriculars. Well-to-do kids simply have more qualifications.

Admissions and financial aid should to totally separate. You have to meet the college's qualifications first and then they should look to see if you need financial aid or not.
 
Seems that this is an obvious conclusion, downtown. Those with the most money will be able to afford the most expensive education. Even financial aid only comes in the form of loans, which are themselves prohibitively expensive to repay.

My solution is simple: make higher education free (or at least with only some nominal fee). It's been done in other countries.
 
Taking income into account for admissions is the complete opposite of meritocracy. Admissions should be completely independant of such a metric.

If you want to discuss financial aid for lower income students AFTER acceptance for admissions, thats a completely different story.
 
but they don't have more qualifications because they have more integral merit, but have more "meritous" awards. So if a kid busts his ass to learn and do well, but has no good foundation, gets an average of 600 per test on the SAT coming from a background in which he didn't even know what the SAT was until some teacher in his high school talked him into taking it months earlier, that kid may have vastly more academic merit than the kid with 700s and AP courses etc. Just so long as the first kid can be quickly brought up to speed, he has more academic merit demonstated by his ability to perform in an environment antithetical, rather than directly supportive, of/to his academic achievement.
 
but they don't have more qualifications because they have more integral merit, but have more "meritous" awards. So if a kid busts his ass to learn and do well, but has no good foundation, gets an average of 600 per test on the SAT coming from a background in which he didn't even know what the SAT was until some teacher in his high school talked him into taking it months earlier, that kid may have vastly more academic merit than the kid with 700s and AP courses etc. Just so long as the first kid can be quickly brought up to speed, he has more academic merit demonstated by his ability to perform in an environment antithetical, rather than directly supportive, of/to his academic achievement.

But that's all theoretical what-ifs and fluff. There's probably a better chance that the kid with the 700 and AP courses is actually a smarter and better student with a better foundation in general knowledge.
 
I just want to say, trust Marx to talk about redistributing places to the poor.
 
Couple of things here:

1) We aren't just talking about "poor" kids being at a major disadvantage for these top schools, but everybody but the rich. At Michigan and Georgetown (and remember kids, UM is public), more kids came from 200,000K homes than the bottom half combined. Even at Ohio State (my alma mater) the average family income for admitted freshman is north of 80,000, (which pretty well off in Ohio). These are opportunities that are becoming increasingly closed to middle class families too.

2) Many aspects of "merit" are stacked against poorer students, especially the extracurricular portion (which Marx talks about). You won't have time to tutor poor kids in Africa if you have to work at the 7/11.

I personally agree 100% with what Hydro says. If a kid can get a 1245 on the old SAT while working through a bad HS, he'll be able to do difficult college work.
 
Taking income into account for admissions is the complete opposite of meritocracy.

I'd say it's vital. A straight-A teenager from a rich family with a private tutor hasn't achieved very much at all compared to a straight-A teenager from a poor family with no parental support.
 
Transfers from community colleges seems like the smartest way to go for Amherst and similar private schools, encourage students with potential to go through the year to two they need to prep and then transfer to the university.

However, what we really have here is a systematic problem that in large part is due to failing to do the right thing by many kids at high school or earlier. It can't be solved by colleges, at least not very easily, it would be a near impossible move to do something like displace the SAT and ACT with more comprehensive national tests like other nations have and we're tied up at the state level for high schools with inconsistent everything anyway. But to continue from the colleges' perspective

You know there's a funny thing, the kid from the Bronx with a 1200 (we'll say 600/600) SAT and the kid from some rich private school with the same SAT score both have the same name: Never going to be a scientist or engineer.

That's the real problem, and one that Amherst or other universities can't magic away. It would be great if you could go back in time and raise kids with potential from age 5 or whatever, give them the education they need and so on. The answer is that those students graduated out of high school and trying to start freshman year of college without decent background in high school, actually having studied some chemistry and physics and trig at least, and something like roughly around 700 at least on SAT math are not going to make it. Doesn't matter if they are rich or poor, black or white, male or female, or even Canadian, if they can't get those scores by the end of high school and some background in pre-university subjects they are not ready.

There's a good chance they will drop out.
There's a very good chance that if they don't drop out, they switch majors, so we have another sociology/mass communications/business major
And there's a good chance that even so, they won't graduate in four years.

Despite lofty ideals there's really a simple economic truth in that colleges can't afford to give scholarships to tons of kids who won't graduate in four years and at best in non-rigorous majors. (That's another discussion, that the US has more and more people graduating with degrees that really have taught very little and our whole economic system might be better off without pushing expensive and useless degrees for people who don't need them.) Public or state schools are often even worse off here compared to private colleges with large endowments. It's not their fault, but they can't change kids coming in without the background, study skills, or anything needed from high school.

So encouraging these students that need it, to go to community college first, saves everyone time, money, allows them to catch up to there peers so that when they do enter the four year university they are not hopelessly behind in remedial coursework, that's the best that a college can do.

What we really need of course is to fix the problems with high schools and college admission standards nationwide. We are finally perhaps getting there where, in the absence of federal mandates and standards which we can't do, states at least are aiming for some consistency so you don't have high school kids at one state completely not learning and incompetent in subjects that are widely taught elsewhere.

In a way I think encouraging a larger focus on more meritocratic tests can still work, the SAT and ACT are not perfect tests, but it's a start. If the whole focus nationwide shifted to encouraging performance on something real and measurable at the end of high school then at least we'd have something, and more importantly, the colleges would know for sure that admitting folks with at least good enough scores will be a good call, the students will learn and graduate. The problem now is that the SAT and ACT just aren't that good of metrics for average-ish students, but colleges could take some effort to encourage other things. For instance, colleges really miss out on AP/IB scores as often students, if they take any of these courses, are most likely to have the most their senior years. But admissions decisions are decided before students take AP tests, so colleges don't even get to consider final scores. A push to get everyone who has the potential and willingness to try a couple AP courses, say for starters US History, English, or AB calculus, and then the scores on the tests would contribute to more meritocracy across the board and these tests indicate a student's ability to at least study and learn stuff at the college level much better than the SAT/ACT. Otherwise, I agree the current trend of random sports/activities/community service that admissions folks and students obsess over is bad and not meritocratic as the article points at. The poor student even at a bad high school, if talented and hard working, could score well on national tests, and the rich kid with a tutor can't entirely cheat it. At any rate, it's better than "Mmyess, I see here you were on your high school fencing team, what a delighted interesting young individual, welcome to our university." (of course, the fact that nobody anywhere has high school fencing but probably some rich schools is just an aside for non USians.)

edit - Holicannoli has one good point though, and that's that scholarships/aid packages (again, if the college can afford them, which is a problem now anyway, an example school like Michigan probably cannot) would be great to encourage matriculation of poor students who are ready and able for a four year university, and just couldn't afford it on their own, which probably is part of the discrepancies at some private colleges. Acceptance without those students actually enrolling is a problem colleges can address internally. But it doesn't change the real problem of students being simply unprepared nationwide and the four-year college experience being incapable and inefficient for educating these students.

So there should also perhaps be a summary of a large part of these discrepancies, which probably holds true especially at various small private colleges. When you have two kids, where neither are ready to study most serious academic subjects at a university, the rich kid can afford to pay full tuition for their degree, even if they goof off for more than four years, in mass communication/sociology or whatever liberal arts. It doesn't really help to give large scholarships to poor kids do to the same even if they have equal high school credentials but not enough to make it in a real major, that's not helping meritocracy and can't be afforded by colleges anyway.
 
The question is broken. Meritocracy is overrated. I'll be back later...
 
You know there's a funny thing, the kid from the Bronx with a 1200 (we'll say 600/600) SAT and the kid from some rich private school with the same SAT score both have the same name: Never going to be a scientist or engineer.

That's the real problem, and one that Amherst or other universities can't magic away. It would be great if you could go back in time and raise kids with potential from age 5 or whatever, give them the education they need and so on. The answer is that those students graduated out of high school and trying to start freshman year of college without decent background in high school, actually having studied some chemistry and physics and trig at least, and something like roughly around 700 at least on SAT math are not going to make it. Doesn't matter if they are rich or poor, black or white, male or female, or even Canadian, if they can't get those scores by the end of high school and some background in pre-university subjects they are not ready.

So only the tiniest top % of college applicants can become Engineers? The average Math and Reading scores are only a little north of 500 (according to USA Today).
 
Yes. Not percentile wise, but competency wise. I personally don't see a reason why all students couldn't score much higher on the SATs, it's not an extremely high ceiling and an average student who studies enough could score much higher than the averages now, which are brought down by students not even caring or trying. So it's not an absolute percentage thing - 600 is like a little less than 70th percentile, true. What it is is dirt pathetic as far as competency goes. As a rough indication of how competent a student is at that time, presumably by their senior year of high school, if it's really the best a student can do they're not ready for such studies in college.

So yes, I'd honestly say that if you can't score higher than that in SAT math you are extremely unlikely to make it through a technical degree at a four year college. You either need more time and remediation, go through community college etc. and in a year or two you'll be caught up to peers in science or math to start on the same level for a four year degree, or you simply don't have the academic ability.

edit - also wrote I story that I'll edit in for humor though I think dt and others get the point without hardheaded analogies, so don't bother if you don't want, however a few funny little things in here:

Spoiler :
Let's say there's a civilization on Mars and they have an excellent, really superbly designed standardized test called the Martian Trigonometry test that they give to students before they go to college and study calculus and other high maths. The test is an excellent measure of actual ability to do the math and not guessing or luck or anything else.

Now let's say that in one place, Marsville, 70% of students pass the Martian Trigonometry Test. In another place, Marsburg, only 3% do. Overall on Mars maybe it's 50th percentile to pass the test.

However if I were to say "If you can't pass the Martian Trigonometry Test you're not ready for college mathematics" that's a true statement. It's true regardless of the percentage of students who pass it. It's also true for humans who go to Mars and take their test in the equivalent way, even if, say, only 20% of all humans from Earth would be capable and the Martians' percentile distribution is not the same. But human or Martian, if you couldn't pass the test you're not really ready for college mathematics on Mars. Your education is only equivalent to a high school dropout there.

The problem is that Marsburg is simply failing to educate their students, some of them certainly would have the aptitude if the clock could be rewound and they got a good high school education, but they are not ready to be thrown into a college program where they will fail. It could even be that if Martians came to Earth, percentile wise, a larger proportion of Martians are smarter than humans and they could all be scientists or engineers by human standards. But those who can't pass the test, aren't ready, even if they might have had the potential had they been educated properly. And the Martian university system can't really do anything about the students who aren't ready.
 
Look, if you can't score above a 600 on that pathetic SAT I math section, your probably not going to make it as an engineer anyways. Engineering schools have like a 50% dropout rate because of the tough math and tech courses.

If you aren't really good in math, your chances of making it out of engineering school are slim.

Remediation isn't going to help that much. Going to college and going into it as a engineer(later dropped into business school), I can tell you a lot of it is just natural talent and intuition in Mathematics. I was one of the top math students at a very good HS and took and passed all the AP math courses but when it come to competing against the best in the engineering school(U of I at Urbana-Champaign), I was at best, about average. Didn't matter how hard I worked/studied, some of them were just much better than me at it. Mathematical and logical proficiency at high levels is a large part genetic. No amount of remedial education is going to help that.

Think about it, I bet all of the young people in this forum can start training hard in B-Ball, but how many of them do you think will ever be good as LeBron James?
 
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