They're finally drawing more lessons from Endless Legend than simply adding districts. Finally leaning into the asymmetrical gameplay with this release. This is way more exciting than R&F. Why'd they even make that expansion again?
Unique commercial district is powerful on itself, because of the cost discount unique districts have. Even with the production penalty, Mali can get a commercial district sooner, buy a market with faith,
Extremely gold-heavy civ, but gold can be the most flexible yield. They'll be reminiscent of Venice in Civ V, extra trade routes and trade route bonuses, with you buying your way to almost anything (instead of building).
The real damage will be wonders, you won't be able to buy those.
Well since Mali does get a lot of gold from mines, Mali could focus some trade routes on internal trades to counter production loss for wonders to a degree.
Obviously this makes them ill suited for religious victory. The video says they are good for all victory types, but I think you'll want to use your faith for other things.
They're finally drawing more lessons from Endless Legend than simply adding districts. Finally leaning into the asymmetrical gameplay with this release. This is way more exciting than R&F. Why'd they even make that expansion again?
As to Mali, I guess they're the CiV Venice of this game? Should be interesting to play, although I'm a bit dubious about their usefulness. I'll have to look at some of the numbers, but I doubt you'll have enough money to buy enough units to defend yourself on high difficulties that make up for the lowered production, as everything costs a ton of money in this game. So far, this is probably going to be the second civ I try, after the Inca
Hey. If they have a desert start bias (and why wouldn't they), getting as much as 6 Faith per turn right off the bat is going to give Mali first choice of pantheons. No one else will be getting Desert Folklore.
Unique commercial district is powerful on itself, because of the cost discount unique districts have. Even with the production penalty, Mali can get a commercial district sooner, buy a market with faith, then buy a cheaper trade route and establish trade routes faster than any Civ. they also get more trade routes form golden ages. That by itself already make up for the production penalty imo.
I really like it since it encourage to try a different playstyle, with less focus on production. It will struggle to build wonders though...
And I'm assuming projects as well. Meaning projects are normal cost. Otherwise spaceship parts would be brutal. As for space victory you will be going royal society and buying builders for sure.
Of course the mines hit will hurt getting districts up with production. Will definitely encourage keeping quarries on hills rather than harvest and mine them.
I can see its fun as Mali for role playing purposes to spam 4 pop cities surrounded by 6 desert tiles with just the Mali CH and Holy Site (purchased by Reyna), only working those +4 Gold mines. Hard to see this as an efficient strategy, though, because the lack of Science and Culture will kill them.
Gold based economy aside, the civ ability is potentially a massive boost in the early game/to new cities. Mali will often join Indonesia in getting faith from turn one but can get up to +6 instead of +2. This means a probable first pantheon and enough faith to be a major factor in great person races (or to make good use of bonuses like Valetta or the age bonus that allows civilian unit purchases, or to save up for Jesuit Education or Grandmaster's Chapel). The food will make for rapid growth to medium size cities and make it much easier to work non food tiles (mines on desert hills, for instance).
Hey. If they have a desert start bias (and why wouldn't they), getting as much as 6 Faith per turn right off the bat is going to give Mali first choice of pantheons. No one else will be getting Desert Folklore.
I might argue for god of craftsmen if you have a fair amount of iron, although you may be likely to get your pantheon before you can detect iron...
I wonder if Mali will have a bias toward mineable resources? It would make sense, but we already have one north african mining desert focused civ...
Alright, I’ll keep it real with you chiefs—I think this Civ is probably going to be bad. The production maluses are going to set you so far back in the early game that it doesn’t matter how much stuff you can buy once you get that unique commercial hub up.
If you get rolling, then yeah, this Civ could be very strong in a unique way, but I think this is easily the worst of the revealed Civs thus far. A little disappointed because they’re a cool design, but I think the cons of the Civ make them not really work.
Maori > Hungary > Inca > Canada > Mali
Which is also a tiny science/culture boost. However, you won't be putting too many cities in locations with large amount of desert, as such places aren't occurring that often and you still want to place cities to get luxuries or in strategic positions. So the ability will mostly benefit the capital and 2-3 other cities.
Alright, I’ll keep it real with you chiefs—I think this Civ is probably going to be bad. The production maluses are going to set you so far back in the early game that it doesn’t matter how much stuff you can buy once you get that unique commercial hub up.
If you get rolling, then yeah, this Civ could be very strong in a unique way, but I think this is easily the worst of the revealed Civs thus far. A little disappointed because they’re a cool design, but I think the cons of the Civ make them not really work.
Maori > Hungary > Inca > Canada > Mali
But it seems to be more fun (at least for me personally) ;-) If the AI is willing to trade you favors for all your gold, I can see this civ winning a DipV even when behind in development by far.
Yep, I do understand this.
However, gold doesn't buy wonders.
(But admittedly, it buys workers and they can chop forests or harvest ressources. But this has downsides and at least forests are not known to grow on desert tiles - which is, where you want 'Petra'.)
Obviously this makes them ill suited for religious victory. The video says they are good for all victory types, but I think you'll want to use your faith for other things.
They are bad for scientific victory as well, because the penalty from mines also applies to projects and wonders, unlike the 30% generic production penalty. You can't pray your way into space.
They only victory type I can see Mali excel at is domination, because they can field and maintain massive armies.
Hey. If they have a desert start bias (and why wouldn't they), getting as much as 6 Faith per turn right off the bat is going to give Mali first choice of pantheons. No one else will be getting Desert Folklore.
The adjecency bonus is only to flat desert and desert hills, not oasis or floodplains. So a start with +6 faith will probably be a bad one. (Incorrect assumption). But even with +2 or +3 they will easily found a pantheon as first or second.
-30% production hurts... especially in the early game. All the gold bonuses need time to kick in and really matter - you won’t be able to buy everything you want in the Ancient-Classical eras.
I think we need to play the game to get an idea of how well the gold bonuses offset the production malus. But IMO one thing is certain: you do NOT want to get invaded early as Mali. While your gold churner is not yet developed in the first dozens of turns, it means that you have to deal with:
Delayed scouts
Delayed archers
Delayed builders
Delayed monuments and granaries
Delayed first trade route
But once you get out of the early game hell, I’m pretty sure you’ll be balling out of control. Casual players will love it, while Deity speed-runners will walk away in disbelief that FXS could conceive such an “abomination”. I, for one, look forward to rolling in cash.
The adjecency bonus is only to flat desert and desert hills, not oasis or floodplains. So a start with +6 faith will probably be a bad one. But even with +2 or +3 they will easily found a pantheon as first or second.
Alright, I’ll keep it real with you chiefs—I think this Civ is probably going to be bad. The production maluses are going to set you so far back in the early game that it doesn’t matter how much stuff you can buy once you get that unique commercial hub up.
If you get rolling, then yeah, this Civ could be very strong in a unique way, but I think this is easily the worst of the revealed Civs thus far. A little disappointed because they’re a cool design, but I think the cons of the Civ make them not really work.
Maori > Hungary > Inca > Canada > Mali
I mostly agree. I think it all depends on start position though. If you get two good desert cities to start with, you can build up your advantage pretty well. But you have to survive the early onslaught of enemy units to set that up. I don't think Mali will be founding any religions with its early game dedicated to survival.
Problem is that the AI will be terrible at this Civ; and in multiplayer, your opponents will know that you have a 30% hit to early unit production. Mali will likely be eaten alive in MP.
It’s an interesting idea. And I like that FXS are adding these “unique mechanics but nasty malus” Civs. Probably the right time to be introducing these to the game.
But, yeah. Not a huge fan.
Basically, they just get a lot of gold - both directly (mines, adjacency, Trade Routes, unit kills) and indirectly (discount on gold purchases, Commercial Hub is half price). But there’s no real strategy to get said extra gold - just build cities in the desert.
The production Malus is... a bit tedious, really. Slow starts. Slow building walls (which you can’t buy with gold). Can’t benefit from % production cards. Projects are weaker. Chopping will be a pain.
The only interesting bit is Trade Routes from Golden Ages. Not massive, but different, and bit of an extra reason to grab Golden Ages.
Sorry, but really they just seem kind of boring. No idea if they’re OP or not (my guess is “not”). My problem is more I just don’t think they’ll be interesting to play.
They’ll be a disaster if the AI plays them. They’ll have no units, and when you war with them, the gold you get from peace will be nuts.
I’m also not convinced we needed another Desert Civ.
FXS might have done more with this. There could have been a lot more play mixing faith and gold. Maybe they could use gold in a way other can’t, and or just flat out couldn’t build units. Hmm. Well, not every Civ can be a winner.
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