Discussion in 'Mafia/NOTW' started by topsecret, Dec 15, 2019.
*adds Snerk to revenge kill list*
I am surprised I wasn't night killed after I first claimed bodyguard. Every night I assumed would be my last, but the mafia never killed me even after Snerk confirmed my role. Also I didn't guard Rask because I was suspicious of the roleblock claim. I am glad I didn't because they deserved their fate for their incredibly bad roasting of I assume Csargo. If they actually targeted yako, then they deserved it even more.
it's on baby!
@Synsensa: it may have been frustrating but it was a win win situation for mafia. Tak bussing you allowed him to sail easily till mafia victory and you got us to lynch pzelda. well done.
@Csargo: I want a mafia victory gif!
It doesn't even matter, because I screwed the barracuda by being too subtle about my reverse psychology and inadvertently getting Rask killed by diverting Argon.
For a dip into plausible fantasy, imagine that moment at the end of N4 as a temporal inflection point, and imagine I had said nothing and stayed the course.
SOD5: *Logic is dead town. No other kill.*
Rask: I was actually a vig, and targeted Logic as you requested.
Monty: Damn, I thought you were going to block Logic. If I knew you had a vig I would have recommended Zack.
Argon: I continued protecting Rask.
Monty: This is kind of suspicious really. So the Mafia kill failed, and Argon lied about being a BG - he's supposedly a full doc? Could Rask and Argon be partners? Actually, let's tie Zack and Newyn today and prove ourselves.
Newyn: I'm Wario!
Monty: Three parties good, two parties bad. Leave Newyn alone. It's time, gentlemen. Time to liquidate Zack. Alpha strike!!!
Rask, Choxorn, Monty, + Argon/Jo/Newyn: *Vote Zack*
Zack: *Dies, flips scum*
Monty: We going hard after Csargo tomorrow, and if not him Tak. That's the immediate POE. Hopefully only 1 scum left. Argon, continue protecting Rask. They'll have to hit either you or me tonight.
Snerk: Actually I'm a copycat and I can protect.
Monty: Snerk, protect Argon. Rask, block one of Csargo or Tak.
SOD6: *Assume incorrect block target and Snerk dies*
Monty, Rask: We shall avenge the fallen. Tie Csargo and Tak.
Csargo/Tak: *Dies, flips scum*
Monty: Game's not over? Wow, so there's one more? Or is it Newyn? Argon, continue protecting Rask. Rask, block the lynch survivor tonight.
(*if Tak*) Since you blocked him once already we can clear him tonight - or unmask him.
Rask: *Blocks survivor of Csargo/Tak*
SOD7: *No kill*
Monty, Rask: Either Newyn is framing Csargo/Tak - unlikely, given that the lack of a kill grants us an extra round - or Csargo/Tak is just scum. Vote Csargo/Tak.
Monty: If this doesn't work we'll revisit Newyn.
Csargo/Tak: *Dies, flips scum*
Monty, Rask: *Buddy cop pose*
Rask, Choxorn: *Watching Bowser Jr. grow*
<insert appropriate media>
It would've been so great. I hate it when I almost singlehandedly doom my team, but that's the risk of shouldering responsibility.
?? OK, so I still don't understand - did I doom the town, or did Argon? You were originally protecting Rask N4 until I suggested otherwise, right? If you had protected Rask we would currently be on the way to lynching the final mafia.
More thoughts and the epilogue after 12 or 1.
Me neither... even scum Tak confirmed (together with pzelda) that I was a rôleblocker (@Takhisis: I saw you used that circumflex!) ... but hey, c'est la vie.
Sometimes I think that balance is a mythical, non-existent creature that doesn't exist and can't exist, at least in games with many roles. Regardless, here's a few thoughts on balance, and what i have learned on the subject.
The coin game was more balanced than I expected in some aspects and much less balanced in others.
The most important thing for the coin game was surviving. This is only natural - players that survive longer earn more coins. Earning power was varied, but I think some small tweaks may have been appropriate. Here's some things I noticed:
Coin giving powers are very powerful, but more for the recipient than the giver.
Coin thievery, as I expected, is powerful, which is why no one could steal three coins. Two was the limit and that was still really good.
One often had a choice between coins and game actions, and most players chose to help their team win over earning a few extra coins. This makes perfect sense, but I am glad I had the choice available if needed.
The major violation in balance here was Wario. He should have had a reliable method for earning coins that wasn't super high but eventually earned him some better powers. His powers were at first weak, and then they were unmatchable (although probably unreachable). Also, it's just plain difficult to balance 3P - they usually have to survive the whole game, which can be difficult (town/mafia don't have to live). If anyone has some thoughts on 3P balancing, I would enjoy a good read.
The game ended with a Mafia victory, but I still fear it was town-sided somewhat. The town's potential was never fully realized. They had more power than they used. In any case I've noticed a few general things about balance:
The mafia needed some generic coin powers. It was probably too obvious that they had all gameplay abilities while many of the town had simple coin abilities. I need to mix it up so that they had both. (Perhaps two coin powers and two "regular" powers...?)
Cover roles could have been more varied to allow better claims during a mass claim. For example, other abilities that helped them mix in. In this case, the above point would probably not be needed. The mafia could have gameplay powers but have coin power covers.
Town power roles could have been a bit different, but overall I am satisfied. I don't think, from an ability standpoint that it was too terribly unbalanced; maybe a little, but it was mainly a doctor, a role scanner (without town-locks, I think), and (with mislynches) a roleblocker. I think the main thing is not to include two roleblockers, because that raises too much suspicion. One roleblocker would keep the alignment more hidden.
To sum up that, my primary goal was to attempt to prevent a mechanical solve. While a mechanical solve did not happen, I think it was still possible. My aim is to leave enough doubt to prevent mechanical solves so that the town has to use vote and behavior analysis instead of cruising its way to victory on a spreadsheet. A tall task with role madness, but I contend it is achievable. I don't think the town needed less power. The mafia just needed a little more ability to conceal themselves. The mafia do not need to become the uninformed minority, or the game's broken - it's no longer fun or winnable for them if so.
Here's some behind the scenes on why I made certain roles the way they were.
The mafia's roles were intended to prevent mechanical solving, although I should have given them some sort of coin cover role. Who puts a protector, a hider, and a messenger on the mafia? Me. But next time I'll put something else you won't expect. They got those abilities to mess with people so that you would realize - hey, they have honestly good abilities that look townie, but could be guilty. And even though I think it might have been easy to push the mafia over, everyone was still kinda in doubt as to just exactly who they were. No one was 100% confident, and as a host I think that's important. Mechanical solves are fun if you do them, but if you get caught by them - boring!
Tanoomba's role was intended to be powerful, but not powerful enough to lock-clear townies. He could gain some really good powers, so I think he was too powerful overall, but it is still a fun role. Maybe a shapeshifting mafioso or 3P will appear in the future. (Or maybe I'll make it town again to mess with people reading into my hosting. ) Whatever I do with it, it won't be quite so powerful, although that "modified" key word did exactly what I wanted it to do: prevent lock-clears.
Bowser's role was intended to counteract a one-sided game if he survived. It was a good concept, and I think it will appear sometime in the future, under the right circumstances, with some modifications. Had things gone better for the town with protections and blocks, they might have pulled off an easy win.
Thwomp and Bandit were super powerful on the coin game because they both reduced others coins and increased their own. Thwomp was almost self-clearing with the coin thievery, so maybe it will not be so easy to notice next time.
Koopa Troopa could watch to see how many people visited, but it wasn't necessarily that useful. Under the right circumstances, maybe it would have helped.
The comparing roles (Bowser Jr. and Gold Goomba) could be difficult, but Choxorn played Bowser Jr. well. Dolbster got killed so I didn't see how that one worked.
If anyone else has thoughts, comments, etc. on balance, please post them; I would love to hear them! Keep it constructive please, as I am looking to improve, not just get trashed.
I've been wanting to do this theme for a long time - in fact, I thought it up several years ago, but I never tried it until now. There's so many role options that you can pretty much make any ability, because the Mario universe has countless characters. It was incredibly fun to write updates and make roles. I think when you enjoy a theme, it makes hosting and playing more fun. Lots of people like Mario anyway, so the theme is good overall.
Another good thing about the theme is that it is not too serious. Sometimes themes that are super serious can get the players even more serious. Sometimes a fun/light-hearted theme can help alleviate some of the tension to "do well." I feel like that the multitude of actions and things going on help make the game enjoyable even if there are design errors (which of course is impossible with me. )
This theme is so expansive that I can do much more games. I've already got some ideas, and as you can probably tell, Mario Mafia Two is already formulating inside my head. But we'll save some of that for epilogue.
One last thing I never explained is that the storyline for Princess Peach was unlockable. You unlocked certain parts by killing all the Gold characters. If there was one dead at Night One, you got the first part. If all were dead by Night Three, you got the next part. I had an alternate plan if the Gold players did not die; none of this affected the game, but it was fun for me. The Golden Mushroom at the conclusion was an allusion to the idea. I had a more complex system for it, but I remembered I removed the Golden Boo which ruined my other system; so you'll just have to wait to see what other flavor ideas I come up with next time.
Alright I've just realized I forgot to do the MVP votes.
PM me your votes. You can't pick yourself. Vote for your alignment only.
Mafia Vote Options
Town Vote Options
I am going to post the rest of the awards as soon as possible and release the MVP awards once the votes come in. You have until sometime tomorrow.
Tim was a real barn burner this game. I loved his posts. Can I defect and then vote for him?
Nah but you can perform persuasion of townies in-thread.
Have the most coins of anyone in the game.
Have the most coins of the Mario Bros. (Mafia)
Have the most coins of the Koopa Kingdom. (Town)
Have the most coins of the living players at the end of the game.
Have the least coins at the end of the game.
Money, Money Badge
Earn the most coins via day phase coin votes.
Timsup2nothin & RRRaskolnikov
2 Coins Each
LYNCH AWARDSGame Over
Be the first player lynched.
Receive the most votes at the End of Day over the course of the game without being lynched.
PLAYER AWARDSHero's Journal
Be the MVP of the Mafia team. (Voted by the Mafia team.)
Be the MVP of the Town team. (Voted by the Town team.)
Give the best Mario reference.
Best Joke of the Game
The irony being Newyn won the Game Over award without it being Game Over.
A bit of both… remember that Zack (or Zak, or Zach) was brain-fried enough to insist that we leave Lord Argon alive.
It's copied off Dookû. I'm seriously surprised that the players didn't pick up on my telegraphing my antagonist-who's-really-a-good-guy-ness.
But, I always write it as rôle when playing mafia games.
Nooooooo! We want backstory!
You forfeit your coins to the rest of the team.
I loved my role this game. Always exiting to gain new powers. It could perhaps have been OP had I been very lucky with my pick of targets. But the way it played out it was pretty balanced. It could only really alignment scan the doc. And not being able to re-target anybody limited my options.
I remember getting a very similar role in Visor's Red Dwarf game, but I got killed very early in that game so I'm glad I finally got to play around with a role like this.
You'll get enough backstory soon enough... The epilogue is coming.
More updates later this afternoon, including Gameplay Thoughts and the EPILOGUE.
No overall thoughts because you've had enough of me.
We pointed out in the mafia qt and pretty sure people in the thread pointed out Newyn's claim wasn't an active ability, so he was sort of obvious from a mass role claim perspective. I don't know what kind of active ability you could have given Wario though.
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