Materialism and Consciousness.

[Bozo Erectus]

Bingo . The brain can be considered the "anchoring point" of some entity which can be called , for the sake of convenience , ignoring its other connotations , a soul . The same way that the terminal is not the internet , the brain is not the soul . It just connects it to the body .

The brain is the interface. Thats why the brain is the only 'organ' of the body that just gets weirder and weirder and more puzzling the more we learn about it.

 

[El_Machinae]

El, give to God what is Gods, and to Caesar what is Caesars. The meat belongs to Caesar.

In all honesty, you're quite frustrating, because you don't answer questions.

Why do you assume there's more to consciousness than an operating brain?

Thats why the brain is the only 'organ' of the body that just gets weirder and weirder and more puzzling the more we learn about it.

By this definition, you'd be my interface to CFC (kidding!)

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Why do you assume there's more to consciousness than an operating brain?

El, why do you think you can learn more about consciousness by studying MRI images of meat, instead of by exploring your own consciousness from the inside?

By this definition, you'd be my interface to CFC (kidding!)

How far down the rabbit hole you willing to go, Mister?

 

[aneeshm]

I would say it connects it to the senses. But all in all

Of course . The brain in a two-way street . It carries messages from the soul to the body , and from the body ( that is , the senses ) to the soul .

 

[aneeshm]

El, why do you think you can learn more about consciousness by studying MRI images of meat, instead of by exploring your own consciousness from the inside?

You , too , are coming closer and closer to Raja Yoga is you go down this path . I would recommend that you , too , read the book I linked to .

 

[cgannon64]

Well, first off, when you arrange a series of atoms properly, you get an object. A brain. Scissors. That's not so tough. You need iron atoms to get scissors, but you don't have scissors if you just have iron.

Consciousness is also a process. The brain needs to be 'on' to have consciousness. Materialists think you can turn a brain off, and then turn it back on (excepting damage) and still have a brain.

Can something other than a human brain be conscious? Sure. Just like something other than scissors can cut paper. Basically, consciousness is the action that a brain will perform (when used properly) just like cutting is what scissors will do when used properly.

I understand this. My question is, why is consciousness only associated with the brain? What about the brain makes it associated with consciousness?

If the answer to these questions is "I don't know": Is there any hope that these things can be known in the near future? Simply put, is there any hope for an explanation of why this very mysterious thing arises from very simple processes?

The brain is remarkably complex, but sometimes philosophers put too much into the questions - a lot of our behaviour is just chemicals running their courses. And so we extrapolate that ALL of our behaviour is due to chemicals running their courses.

I understand that that is the materialist viewpoint; it just seems a little inadequate. To claim that consciousness is just a bunch chemical reactions may be the only scientifically valid hypothesis, but it's pretty damn lame. It seems almost... unscientific to purport this enormous leap - a bunch of atoms flying to a bunch of atoms knowing they're flying around - and then fail to explain why that's happening.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You , too , are coming closer and closer to Raja Yoga is you go down this path . I would recommend that you , too , read the book I linked to .

Thanks for reminding me, Id forgotten to bookmark it. Ive been groping my way towards it on my own, in the dark. Ive read some about it, but admittedly not much.

 

[El_Machinae]

El, why do you think you can learn more about consciousness by studying MRI images of meat, instead of by exploring your own consciousness from the inside?

Would you be able to learn more about your wireless interface by taking it apart and studying it, or by playing with the internet (assuming you couldn't just google the information)?

If you wanted to make more interfaces, or augment your own, wouldn't studying the device work too?

PS: I do explore my own consciousness, and I let others too. Debating things like "how do I know I exist" and "can I control my dreams and heartbeat" are all valuable. But, if we're trying to improve things, we have to study the hardware. We're not going to cure Alzheimer's by smoking pot and listening to old radio shows. And Alzheimer's destroys consciousness.

 

[punkbass2000]

El, why do you think you can learn more about consciousness by studying MRI images of meat, instead of by exploring your own consciousness from the inside?

Thoughts are the sixth sense. To come to know consciousness is to explore without them.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

We're not going to cure Alzheimer's by smoking pot and listening to old radio shows.

Old radio shows?? How DARE you Sir!

edit: thanks PB Time for me to quit while Im ahead and go see about lunch

 

[punkbass2000]

I understand this. My question is, why is consciousness only associated with the brain? What about the brain makes it associated with consciousness?

Because, IMO, people identify themselves with their thoughts. Also, it is conveniently located between the ears and right behind the eyes, nose and tongue, giving it the illusion of being the central core of being.

 

[punkbass2000]

Thanks for reminding me, Id forgotten to bookmark it. Ive been groping my way towards it on my own, in the dark. Ive read some about it, but admittedly not much.

A guide is nice, but unnecessary. Do not rely on one too much, because you will have to go it alone at some point.

 

[punkbass2000]

PS: I do explore my own consciousness, and I let others too. Debating things like "how do I know I exist" and "can I control my dreams and heartbeat" are all valuable.

I would say you are exploring your thought by this, not your consciousness.

And Alzheimer's destroys consciousness.

I take from this you believe consciousness is dependent on memory?

 

[cgannon64]

Because, IMO, people identify themselves with their thoughts. Also, it is conveniently located between the ears and right behind the eyes, nose and tongue, giving it the illusion of being the central core of being.

I understand why consciousness is associated with the brain in people. I'm asking why, as far as we can tell, consciousness can't exist anywhere else except brains, or brain-imitators.

 

[punkbass2000]

edit: thanks PB Time for me to quit while Im ahead and go see about lunch

And there you have the answer to all.

 

[El_Machinae]

Er, memory helps it, but it's certainly not dependant. It's a tool or an augmentation (much like having an arm is good for you, but not necessary).

But, Alzheimer's ruins more than just what we consider memories. It also ruins parts of the brain essential for maintaining our lives. ie, it kills.

 

[punkbass2000]

I understand why consciousness is associated with the brain in people. I'm asking why, as far as we can tell, consciousness can't exist anywhere else except brains, or brain-imitators.

Because the brain is the interface. You have no means of detecting the consciousness if it's without a method of interacting. To borrow from BE, when your computer dies or your internet connection goes down, you have no means by which to see if the internet is still there. Doesn't mean that it is not.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm asking why, as far as we can tell, consciousness can't exist anywhere else except brains, or brain-imitators.

If we think of consciousness as a machine, we certainly think it can exist other than in a brain ... we just might not recognize it. I can certainly imagine planet-sized consciousnesses.

 

[punkbass2000]

Er, memory helps it, but it's certainly not dependant. It's a tool or an augmentation (much like having an arm is good for you, but not necessary).

But, Alzheimer's ruins more than just what we consider memories. It also ruins parts of the brain essential for maintaining our lives. ie, it kills.

But how does it affect consciousness itself?

 

[punkbass2000]

If we think of consciousness as a machine, we certainly think it can exist other than in a brain ... we just might not recognize it. I can certainly imagine planet-sized consciousnesses.

There is evidence of plants reacting in ways that could be considered consciousness, but I won't go into that here.