Math02: 100K with limited cities

[Mathias]

Economics? Navigation? What happened to Demo, Free Artistry?
This probably isn't a big deal, but if we wanted Econ and Nav first, then I wouldn't have picked up Press first.

I must have checked this just before Meteor posted. I don't have time now to look at the save or post further comments.

 

[MeteorPunch]

I looked back to see what science path we were going for, but couldn't find it. I could have assumed that we were going for Free Artistry, but that takes 2 extra techs to get to, whereas Adam Smith and Magellen were right there.

 

[Mathias]

We must either move the palace now, or not move it at all. Moving the palace after everything else is already build doesn't make much sense. KT can be complete in Murcia in 8 turns if we use the hill that is currently being mined.

After Nav, we can get Demo in 4 turns, then possibly FA in 4 turns after that without running completely out of money.

I would like to see screenshot of F1 screen before and after palace is moved.

 

[Methos]

I'm not finished yet but had a question. Democracy is done in 3, do we want to switch or not?

I switched Seville back to palace and Murcia to KT but unfortunately we lost KT by several turns.

Be done shortly.

 

[Mathias]

Republic to the end.

Hm... we're religious, might want to switch, but not immediately. We can discuss before next turnset.

 

[Methos]

Republic to the end.

Got it.......

 

[Obormot]

Of course we had to research towards Shake's, it gives much more culture then Magellan's and Smith's, but i think we won't loose many turns if we start researching democracy and FA now. (i cannot look at the save now), so it's ok.

I think we don't need to move the palace: we win only a small amount of culture by completing some wonders a few turns earlier, but we also loose some from doubling and we loose 300 shields.

I'm against switching to democracy: we loose 1-2 turns to anarchy, we get only a small decrese in corruption, since our territory is small and we'll have to pay for our units. Also as i said before we may need to do some fighting in the IA, and WW in democracy is a big problem.

 

[Mathias]

We'll have Demo and half of FA at the end of Methos turn. Palace will also be complete in Seville. Moving the palace is a real toss-up now, it should have been moved much earlier, even before anyone mentioned it.

 

[Methos]

Pre-Turn: Switch Seville back to Palace. Switch Murcia to Knight’s Templar as originally discussed.

IT: Madrid Worker>Courthouse.

1@660 AD: Adjust slider 4/6/0

2@670 AD: Zzzz

IT: Research Navigation>Democracy (70%). Salamanca switch to Magellan’s. Korean’s are building Leo’s. Viking’s completed Sun Tzu’s.

Santiago Bank>Smith’s.

3@680 AD: Zzzz

IT: America is building KT. America completes KT. Korea is building Leo’s. Persian’s are building Leo’s. Viking’s are building Leo’s.

4@690 AD: Murcia switches from KT to Smith’s.

IT: Hittites and the Vikings sign peace.

5@700 AD

Madrid Courthouse>Wealth. Valencia Courthouse>University.

6@710 AD

IT: Seville Palace>Marketplace. Toledo University>Marketplace.

7@720 AD

8@730 AD: Adjust slider 5/5/0

IT: Research Democracy>Free Artistry (70%)

Santiago Courthouse>Wealth.

9@740 AD: Valencia rushes University

IT: Valencia University>Colosseum.

10@750 AD: Toledo switched to Palace pre-build

-Switch Toledo to Shakespeare’s once Free Artistry is done in 3, that’ll finish the theater in 13 turns from the switch.
-Currently both Santiago and Madrid are on wealth as I wasn’t for sure what to build.

As of now counting only what has been completed we are looking at:

Barcelona- 20,745
Madrid- 21,028
Murcia- 10,366
Salamanca- 10,318
Santiago- 10,403
Seville- 13,875
Toledo- 13,716
Valencia- 7,992

Total: 108,443

According to CAII we’ll have 100k in 2022 with a 20k (Madrid) in 2031 and in Barcelona in 2037.

I’ve added a pic of the corruption differences both before and after the Palace swap. One note is that after Toledo finished its courthouse corruption dropped to 14%.

 

[Mathias]

It looks like the move gave us an average of 2.5% reduction in corruption and waste. Not sure what that amounts to. I would rather have seen the hard numbers, i.e. number of shields wasted and base commerce corrupt in each city.

Shake's goes in Seville with Cop's, wasn't that the idea?

 

[Methos]

It looks like the move gave us an average of 2.5% reduction in corruption and waste. Not sure what that amounts to. I would rather have seen the hard numbers, i.e. number of shields wasted and base commerce corrupt in each city.

I've added the saves below from both before and after the palace switch.

Shake's goes in Seville with Cop's, wasn't that the idea?

Sorry about that, forgot.

 

[MeteorPunch]

I think the NE city (Santiago?) should build Shakespeare...it has the highest population potential.

 

[Mathias]

Minimal benefit from palace move. Net +2 shields per turn, or 1.2% less waste nationwide. Net +7 base commerce per turn, or 2.1% less commerce nationwide, factoring out the uncorrupted tourism bonuses. If we estimate the effect a courthouse would have had in Seville, then we have 0.6% less waste and 1.3% less corruption.

Valencia and Santiago were vitrually unaffected, while Murcia and Salamanca were effectively swapped. Seville and Madrid were theoretically swapped as well, considering the lack of a courthouse in Seville. The net result is really limited to Toledo gaining twice as much as Barcelona lost.

I think that building Shake's in Seville will make the move worth it, as we are a good while away from hospitals. We will probably build Newton's in Toledo, because the culture may be too much for Seville. In hindsight, we should have made this move much earlier.

Notice: America has surpassed Scandinavia in total culture. We need to keep an eye on this to see how much faster they are growing.

 

[pindicator]

Definitely agree with building Shake in Seville. Having Cop's and Shake in the same town will be a big benefit.

We have a ways til we complete Shake's anywhere, but do we want to take advantage of the free hospital? Irrigating all the plains and working specialists as scientists? I'm thinking a large Seville with Cop and Shake could be a huge boost in commerce. And it won't have too much need for large production afterwards either.

btw, got it and will play tomorrow

Edit: Would like to hear a consensus or at least more conversation on Shake's before I play. I have seen two votes for Seville (Me, Mathias), one for Toledo (Methos), and one for Santiago (Meteor). I am pretty set on Seville, but my mind has been changed before.

 

[Obormot]

Agree to building Shake's in Seville. Irrigating cities that already built their wonders may be a good idea (others after we get hospitals), but remember that we may need some units production.

 

[pindicator]

Okay, playing now. Will put Shake's in Seville cause how I read it there is a majority for it.

Hope I didn't do too much with my trading, but here it all is

Inherited Turn:
Toledo switched from Palace to Market.
A thought here -- after getting Leo's we may consider modernizing, er upgrading, our army.

760AD
Vikings now have Gunpowder -- did I miss that before?

IBT
Toledo: Market->Bank

770AD
Science to 60% to prevent beaker overflow.
MM Salamanca -- was using an irrigated grassland over the fish tile.

IBT
Learn Free Artistry. Set to Gunpowder (only choice).
Seville: Market->Shakespeare's Theatre.

780AD
Persia now knows Gunpowder.
Trade for Scandinavian Gunpowder; we give Theology, World Map, 136g & 4gpt
Science to 70%, Chemistry due in 5 turns.
Trade around World Maps now. Couldn't remember any reason not to.
Korea: WM for WM + 48g +7gpt
Maya: WM for WM + 46g
Ottomans: WM for WM + 61g
Persia: WM for WM + 3g -- can now see Hittites have a scant few cities left.
America: WM for WM + 8g
Korea: WM for WM + 7gpt
Scandinavia: WM + 24g for WM
Please let me know if this was bad -- if the AIs had more gold I would have gotten more, but Korea was the only one to really be milked.
Science can now go to 80%, Chemistry in 4 turns.

We have saltpeter! One tile south of Toledo. And the Koreans indeed did pick up a saltpeter with their town of Ulsan. As soon as they learn the tech, that is. If we ever raze Ulsan the saltpeter will fall within Marcia's 21 tile radius.

790AD
Using our new-found cash I short-rush Colosseum in Valencia (via Marketplace). MM town to complete next turn.

IBT
Valencia: Colosseum->Marketplace.
We lose our Incense and Spice deals.

800AD
Trade Ottomans Monotheism for Incense, Spice, & 6g.
Trade Vikings Gems for Ivory + WM.
Science to 70%

IBT
Everybody loves the queen. I love Queen, too...

810AD
IBT
We learn Chemistry. Physics due in 5.

830AD
Trade Korea Saltpeter (they have yet to hook their's up) for 20gpt + 9g.

IBT
Toledo: Bank->Wealth

840AD
Science to 90% at deficit

IBT
Salamanca: Magellan's->Bank.


Physics will come in on the IBT, after that we're shooting for Theory of Gravity for Newton's.

CivIIAssist has us estimated at a 100k Culture win in 2015AD.

 

[Mathias]

First impression from reading turnchat: Awesome!

You may have looked already, but the Vikings did not have Gunpowder in 750 AD.

I hadn't really thought much about it, but Korea is a very nice neighbor to have. I'm not opposed to razing a couple of their cities before joining them in a war against America. We will need to do something about America. They are suddenly producing over 120 total culture per turn, averaging 117.7 during pindicator's turnset.

Checking on cities...
Why is Valencia still at +5 fpt? Marketplace in 2 turns instead of 3 at max prod.

If we mine some of the irrigated tiles in seville, we can move off of the forest and onto higher-commerce river tiles without losing any production. We could then clear the forests and irrigate those tiles for growth after Shake's.

We should set Madrid and Toledo up to make maximum use of river tiles.


Edit: We can now see where all the iron is. There are six sources in the northern half of the Scandinavian-Persian continent!

More edit: The Americans not only lack iron, but they have no saltpeter either! That's just too bad...

 

[Methos]

MM Salamanca -- was using an irrigated grassland over the fish tile.

Salamanca is maxed in pop and wasting food so I switched a tile to one with an additional shield. This caused us to lose one commerce and gain a shield but at least we weren’t wasting food anymore. Not sure if it was the right thing to do but I figured the extra shield would be better than a wasted food and one commerce.

 

[Mathias]

It was the right thing to do, you just moved the wrong citizen. At 750AD, a citizen was working a 3.0.2 (f.s.c) irrigated grassland tile, when she could have been working the 3.0.4 coastal fish tile.

Barcelona can give up the hill that it shares with Valencia and still pull 20 spt. Valencia can then also pull 20 spt if we irrigate one of the BGs.

We are 5 or 6 turns from Theory of Gravity. Toledo can begin prebuild with palace.

 

[pindicator]

First impression from reading turnchat: Awesome!

aw, gee...

Checking on cities...
Why is Valencia still at +5 fpt? Marketplace in 2 turns instead of 3 at max prod.

Ah! I was supposed to only set it on +5fpt for one turn to hit pop 12 and then switch it back.

The Americans not only lack iron, but they have no saltpeter either! That's just too bad...

That gives me thoughts