Math02: 100K with limited cities

[pindicator]

Playing now. Got our first military leader on my first turn Will use him to smite accordingly.

 

[pindicator]

-ing Americans awaits!

Inherited Turn
Sell Persia Free Artistry for 67g, 48gpt, WM, & Silks.
Change Salamanca, Seville, Toledo, and Santiago to build Knights.

IBT
Crusader redlines, then kills Knight
Crusader retreats knight
Longbow loses to knight
Longbow loses to knight
Longbow retreats knight [2-1]

1160AD
Elite knight attacks spear and...

Lose knight to spear in Seattle, no damage
Taking a look at what I have left for Seattle, I decide to retreat those forces. Next turn we will have an army and in two or three more after that there will be no problem with taking down cities; no need to waste soldiers on a rushed attack now. I move all units out of American territory. Besides, no point in attacking with Elites until we get that army made.
Group south of New York fortifies; our winning knight is sent back to the homeland to join our first army.

IBT
Redlined crusader loses to knight
Crusader redlines, then kills knight
Longbow redlines, then kills knight
Americans settle 2 towns in the IBT; another settler spotted. 2 Korean settlers also spotted moving to the neutral zone.
Valencia: Factory->Universal Suffrage [4-4]

1170AD
We can buy Military Tradition from Scandinavians and Persians
Trade Persian Economics for Mil Trad, WM, 47g, & 6gpt.
Cordoba builds an army in Toledo.
Upgrade every knight I can find; an army of cavalry will be very nice.
Short-rush a cav in Santiago

IBT
Santiago: Cavalry->Factory. Will switch all towns to factory now, in fact. Cavs plus the army should well be enough.

1180AD
Upgrade all non-elite knights from Seattle front (they have made their way back to Toledo).
Army deploys northward.
Trade Mayans Incense for Education
Science to 70% to get Medicine a turn earlier; we won't need to rush or upgrade much more.

IBT
Americans settle two more towns back in; a final settler is spotted south of New York.

1190AD
Conquistador kills longbowman and promotes.
Army kills two spears in Seattle.
Cavalry kills Crusader that made its way into Korean territory.
3/5 Elite knight kills longbow and Bartolome joins our ranks. Second army?
We can put the to anybody now.
Science to 60%

IBT
A friendly reminder to build some small wonders appears. Duh.
Pollution in Seville. [9-4]

1200AD
Forgot about free pillaging before, but not this turn!
Cav Army attacks Seattle, killing a spear, and...

Rush factories in Murcia and Barcelona.

IBT
Persia demands Navigation. First reaction is to give in, but we have cavalry, armies, and rails. Sure enough, they declare.
Crusader kills a knight
Longbow loses to a knight
Longbow loses to a calvary; cavalry promotes.
Korea captures New Orleans in America's northeast.
Medicine comes in, set sights next on Sanitation -- due in 6 at 70% science. [12-5]

Madrid: Factory->Wealth
Barcelona: Factory->Military Academy
Murcia: Factory->Heroic Epic

1210AD
Army pillages a path towards Washington
Cavalry kills Crusader (on a hill!) flawlessly.
Trade Ottomans Chemistry for Spices + WM. [13-5]

1220AD
Cav Army kills 4 spears in Washington with minimal damage.

IBT
Koreans raze American town of Memphis. [17-5]

1230AD
Cav Army kills 3 spears, goes yellow, and then...

Cavalry kills longbow.
Cavalry kills longbow, -1HP.

IBT
Longbow kills Cavalry [22-6]

1240AD
Army is at 7/14, so it fortifies to rest up this turn.
Cavalry kills longbow, -1HP.
Buy 2 workers from Korea for 206.
Science to 60%.

IBT
Toledo: Factory->Wealth [23-6]

1250AD
Workers have all the fun this turn.

Closing Notes

-Valencia is optimized with railroads for size 12.
-Group of cavalry are escourting slaves and a captured treb back to Korean lands.
-Army is fortified, but at 11/14 it should be good to go. I'll let Obormot have the fun of picking what to kill with it. Don't forget your free pillages!
-Workers have been working to improve cities one at a time. I started with Valencia, because it was building the wonder, then I did Seville and Toledo because they had Newton's and Cop's. I don't know if there are any more priority targets next.
-Forgot to do hospital pre-builds. Toledo and Madrid are now set on Coal Plants; they are hospital pre-builds. Sanitation is due in 2.
-Our leader is in Barcelona. We can either build a second army (my recommendation) or rush a wonder / important building. 8 non-elite Knights are also at Barcelona; we have enough gold to upgrade all 8 of them if we choose, or disband them if we decide we have enough military.
-Haven't seen anything yet from Persia. Expect some Cavalry landings ... eventually.
-Korea is hitting the Americans pretty well. They razed a town and captured another during my turnset. Their troops are also advancing pretty well on the Americans, so I tried to resist the urge to kill every American military unit I saw. I recommend the same for the next player.
-Do we consider attacking the Koreans once our deals are up to hopefully restore the balance of power on our continent a bit?


American Culture Count:

1160 .... 9397 (+137)
1170 .... 9534 (+137)
1180 .... 9663 (+129)
1190 .... 9792 (+129)
1200 .... 9921 (+129)
1210 ... 10036 (+115)
1220 ... 10151 (+115)
1230 ... 10266 (+115)
1240 ... 10358 (+92)
1250 ... 10450 (+92)

I'm guess that razing New York will put them down around 85cpt. We make 256cpt and are still due to hit 100k in 1998.

I tried to save you some fun, Obormot Maybe if you're lucky people will want to knock up Korea a bit, or Persia will come knocking.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Solid destruction, nice. Maybe we should think about hurting Korea next?

 

[Obormot]

Good job, pindicator.

It's very good to get a leader for the HE, it has a very high culture/shield count.

I got the save, but i'll wait for some advice before playing.

I vote for destroying some Korean cities too and using the MGL to rush a small wonder.

 

[Mathias]

Inherited Turn (1150 AD)
Sell Persia Free Artistry for 67g, 48gpt, WM, & Silks.
....
1200AD
....
IBT
Persia demands Navigation. First reaction is to give in, but we have cavalry, armies, and rails. Sure enough, they declare.

Looks like Xerxes got the better of you...

Besides that, everything looks good. I would probably have rushed HE with the second leader. It's ovbiously too late for that. Building our second and final army seems like the best choice, but we can use the Academy for that. Other option would be to save him for Battlefield Medicine.

Hopefully Korea won't want to cancel our RoP before we get our units home. I think the alliance reduces the cost of RoP, so don't cancel that until all of our troups are back in our territory. Don't start any new deals with Korea. I want to go ahead and smash a few of their cities, just the three nearest our borders.

 

[pindicator]

Solid destruction, nice. Maybe we should think about hurting Korea next?

Maybe just a little bit

My thinking is that the balance of power on our continent (not counting our omnipotence of course) has Korea on top and America reeling. Especially if Korea doesn't let up, then we need to attack them just to keep them from getting too strong.

Our leader hasn't been sitting in Barcelona long; I think he and his escort made it back safely around turn nine. I could have gotten him back quicker, but I was escorting a bunch of slaves as well and didn't want to split up my defenders. As for the second leader, I think the second army is the way to go. Without a doubt it is better than 3 cavalry units individually. Battlefield Medicine is only going to take about 10 turns to create. And Seville could make it, seeing how they don't really need to build a hospital themselves.

With two cav armies we should be set militarily, unless the AI manages to get to mechs.

Haha! I didn't even realize I had done that Gpt turn until even now! He did get the better of me! Now I want to go send an army or two his way

 

[Obormot]

pre-turn:
- I think we are too carefull with escorting slaves, i decided to send some more units to the front instead.
- I looked through the civilopedia, and it seems that non of the small wonders are really worth an MGL, so i crated

another army.

IBT
- Korea captures Dallas

1255
- Seville: Factory->cav

1260
- Sanitation is discovered, Electricity next in 8 turns at 80% and -35gpt
- HE completed
- Building Hospitals everiwhere
- New York is razed and we get another leader. Now it's time to deal with Korea, but we have to wait untill our RoP and

MA end, so i think there is time to destroy Philadelphia, just for fun
- The leader is stored, since we cannot support another army

IBT
- Korea captures Cincinnati

1265
- Salamance: Factory->Hospital
- Philadelphia razed

1270
- Madrid: Hospital->Galeon
- Toledo: Hospital->cav

IBT
- Korea captures Los Angeles

1275
-

IBT
- Korea captures Cleveland

1280
- Some gpt deals end, our incomde drops, i start wealth in some cities, so that we can continue research
- Our treaties with Korea end, i declare war on them and make peace with America
- 5 Korean cities, including the capital razed, we lost 2 cavs and 2 elite knights (both to spears) in the process.

IBT
- loose one cav

1285
- Cincinnati razed

IBT
- loose one more cav to Koreans.
They have cavalry, but not much, since saltpeter was cut off in the first turn of the war.

1290
- BM leader-rushed in Murcia
- Raze 2 more korean cities, including the new capital

IBT
- Persians land 3 immortals

1295
- Electricity->Sci Method, start ToE prebuild in Santiago
- Workers finished imrovements, so i joined native ones, which brought us to 4-turn research and we have a horde of

slaves to clean the pollution
- New korean capital razed

1300
- US is complete
- One more korean city razed (should have been 2, but bad luck with the RNG)
- I give peace to koreans

 

[Methos]

Unsure if getting rid of all our native workers was the right thing to do. As I recall it takes six native workers to remove pollution from a tile that same round. With seven cities with pop 20 or more (soon to be all eight cities) we are going to have major problems with pollution. We have a lot of slaves (what, around 20 or 30) but I'm not for sure how well they will be. I'm guessing 12 slaves to clean a tile in one turn?

Man our production is awesome! Just took a quick glance (sorry, 4400 is on) but we seem to be doing pretty good.

 

[Mathias]

Let me just say that I am rather annoyed by the way Korea was decimated. My intentions for warring with Korea was to take only the three cities nearest our borders. Ulsan, for the extra saltpeter. Taejon, for the gems. And Cheju, just because. Razing a few of there core cities may have been good to prevent them from annihilating America, but that should have been discussed more. Also, trading on the handoff turn is generally frowned upon. I certainly would not have made peace with Korea before razing Taejon.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Mathias: Maybe you should've been more clear. Why just those 3 cities? Clearing the entire continent would be nice if we could, imo. That way we can set up colonies everywhere without worry. Then surround the colonies with units so no one can build cities near them...and attack them if they try.

 

[Obormot]

I razed so many korean cities, because otherwise they would have eliminated the americans and claimed most of our continent for themselves. Razing only 3 cities doesn't make any sense, i don't think we really need that extra gems and saltpeter. Clearing the entire continent as MP said would have been even better, but i made peace because we'll soon need to do the same with the other continent, Persian and Viking culture is growing. I'm sorry for trading in the last turn, i actually forgot it was last when i signed peace with Korea.

It does take very long to clear the pollution with slaves - 12 slaves before RP and 6 after, but right now we have more then 60 slaves and more are coming. This is another good reason for razing many korean cities. Native workers in this situation were useless and we were paying huge gpt for them (I would also disband our outdated units - trebs, pikes, etc). The IA wonders are scarce, and 4 turn research rate will allow us to build Modern Age wonders sooner. I would even join some slaves to other cities (at least after RP), to keep with 4 turn research when the techs become more expensive.

 

[Mathias]

I didn't want this to become a pseudo-conquest game where we destroy opposing culture in order to claim victory. I don't know what to do now, so I'm not going to play tonight. I apologize for disrupting our game. I'm really at a loss for words here, too. I guess I was just hoping for a more peaceful cultural victory, and hadn't seen Korea as so much of a threat that we needed to hit them so hard.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Mathias: When the game began, I actually had thoughts of a dual-100k/conquest victory game which I believe is possible given the lack of cultural improvements in the IA.

 

[Obormot]

I think you should have said about it in the variant rules, i just did what seemed to be the most logical in this situation. Anyway, i think that a peacefull victory in such conditions is not possible even on monarch, some of the AIs will certainly reach 50K by the time we win.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Maybe it should've been all or nothing...war or no war, not little wars. Either way this has been a fun game that I wouldn't mind playing again on a slightly different variant...Emperor?

 

[Methos]

Originally it was stated exactly what American cities were to be razed (Post #227) and how many cities we were to raze in Korea (Post #245). It was stated, just overlooked. Either way that doesn’t matter now, instead we need to figure out how to continue.

One thing we need to consider is stopping any AI’s (other than America and Korea) of settling on our continent. I believe we should attempt to have both America and Korea settle evenly to keep them equal.

We don’t need the additional war with Persia so we should look at ending it.

I don’t have the time to look at it more.

Either way this has been a fun game that I wouldn't mind playing again

It isn't over yet, just had a slight turn.

 

[Obormot]

Originally it was stated exactly what American cities were to be razed (Post #227) and how many cities we were to raze in Korea (Post #245). It was stated, just overlooked.

I did not overlook that post, but it was not the only one. We were talking about balancing Korea and America all the time too, and many people were talking about more then 3 cities. After destroying those american cities it became clear that razing just 3 korean cities was not enough to preserve the balance, as koreans were about to settle all that land and capture the remaining American cities. I didn't know that we were playing a peacefull game as this was not stated anywhere as a variant rule and i just don't understand why is destroying halve of Korea is worth then destroying halve of America.

 

[Methos]

Remember why we attacked America in the first place? It was because they were gaining culture quickly and would impede our 100k date. We attacked and razed American cities to slow their cultural progress down.

Edit: Not for sure why we attacked Korea, unless it was to stump them just a little.

 

[Obormot]

If Korea grabbed all our continent, they would have started to gain culture even more quickly then the Americans. I checked MapStat, they were already close to 1/2 of our cpt.

If we didn't want to go to war with koreans, then alliing Korea against America was a mistake, we could just raze a few American cities and let them resettle.

 

[Methos]

What if we used our military to make a 'hard border' between America and Korea, forcing them so that they cannot pass. This wouldn't allow them to settle in lands we don't want them too. Same concept as putting units along an islands' edge so the AI can't land.