Matt's Mormon Thread

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. We believe that God more or less gave His approval on the books of the Bible that we use, but that it wasn't overwhelming (see my above quotes). Certainly it was not inevitable that we would end up with the books we have, while excluding others (in fact, even more modern Christians such as Luther wanted to exclude some books) and there are some books that seem to be lost entirely, but we have the Bible we have, and despite all the contradictions and seeming contradictions, there are great spiritual truths found therein.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@cmonster - so there are now a whopping 3 Mormons on CFC? I see from your location that you're in Idaho; having never lived in the 'Mormon corridor' (except the MTC) I have no idea what it would be like to be surrounded by Mormons all the time.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

bah. the nicene creed explains what catholics think. not the rest of us. I dont really care what those fellows drew up together thousands of years ago.

Funny, I'm Lutheran and I believe it. You confirm that the LDS Church is not a true Christian church, despite the fact that "Jesus Christ" was added to the title of the church.

The beliefs expressed in the creed are the basic tenants of Christianity. Other than Mormons, can you name one denomination that doesn't believe these things? Baptists? Presbyterians? Methodists? Episcopalians? Greek Orthodox? Calvinists? Antioch Orthodox? Nazarenes? Russian Orthodox? Pentecostals? They all believe these basic tenants.

That Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. That He is the Messiah who's coming was foretold in the Jewish Scripture. That He was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered and died for the redemption of your sins, then rose from the dead on the third day.

I am not slamming your faith. You have as much right to worship as you see fit. All I am asking is that Mormons stop masquerading as something you are not. Be up front with your beliefs. Tell people that you believe that ONLY a Mormon baptism is valid. That because of this belief you regularly baptize the dead. That we are all sons and daughters of God. That there is much more than a Trinity. That we will all be gods in the Mormon heaven of celestial planets creating new celestial children.

Just be up front about it.

 

[downtown]

i believe most of it. I dont belive in the concept of the *trinity* which is alluded to in the creed.

doesnt everybody think their own baptisim is valid? catholics do. they wrote the thing.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

If you ask the any mainstream denomination if they accept baptism from other churches they will say yes. So long as you were baptized "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." as it says in the new testament.

The fact that Mormons do not believe in a Trinity is one indication that they are not a Christian denomination.

How about ten others?

1. Mormon theology teaches that "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
2. Mormon theology teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
3. Mormon theology teaches that there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God,
4. Mormon theology teaches that Jesus atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, not by dying on the cross.
5. Mormon theology teaches that God is a man of flesh and blood living on a planet near a star called Kolab.
6. Mormon theology teaches that God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus.
7. Mormon theology teaches that after you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god.
8. Mormon theology teaches that God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children.
9. Mormon theology teaches that Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins.
10. Mormon theology teaches that if it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, one question I had. Is it the Mormon theology that wrote "By their works, ye shall know them"? As a way of telling Christians from non-Christians? I always had trouble with that line; though telling a Christian from a non-Christian would be a handy trick.

 

[cmonster]

@cmonster - so there are now a whopping 3 Mormons on CFC? I see from your location that you're in Idaho; having never lived in the 'Mormon corridor' (except the MTC) I have no idea what it would be like to be surrounded by Mormons all the time.

LOL it is no different than living any where else. On my street there are 9 mormon families not counting me. I think it is a great place to live, my neighbor is a paster of a christian church and we talk a lot. I consider him a good friend, we have even had football games between some of his members (football is huge here) and some from our church. I didn't join this forum to get in religous debates. Your free to think what you like about the church that is your right. Any ways I hear to talk about civ 4 not my religion, I know I know should not have posted in the first place.
Cheers!
cmonster

 

[Newawd]

Two things.

First, I lived in Sao Paulo, Brazil for a few years, and it just so happens that most of the churches down there taught that if you were from one church, and you moved to another (not just locations, but denominations) you should be be baptized again into the church you were moving to. Maybe it's just a South American thing.

Second, I don't think that we can debate the meaning of the word Christian. I know a guy who knows *tons* about meanings of words though. His name is Webster. You may have heard of him? . Seriously though, on one of his website (www.dictionary.com) you can find the 'official' definition of the word "Christian". It goes like this (the Noun):

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

What's interesting is that nowhere in the myriad of definitions that are compiled there is the Creed mentioned. I didn't see anything about the Trinity either. You're probably right though. That Webster guy probably doesn't know what he's talking about. . I say we throw out his definition and go with the definition of someone who is much more savvy:

"Additionally it has nothing to do with 'leading a Christ-like life.' It is entirely based on belief."

Hope that didn't "Bug" anyone. . We're all friends here, right. .

I find it interesting that those "Mormon" folk are often considered much too self centered because they believe people should be baptized in a very specific manner, but then those same people who complain about that tell everyone that Christianity is a private club, and that nobody invited those pesky Mormons (who have the audacity to not believe just as the *real* Christians do). We don't need their Lime Jello and Minivans in our club *anyway*!

 

[GenMarshall]

The beliefs expressed in the creed are the basic tenants of Christianity. Other than Mormons, can you name one denomination that doesn't believe these things? Baptists? Presbyterians? Methodists? Episcopalians? Greek Orthodox? Calvinists? Antioch Orthodox? Nazarenes? Russian Orthodox? Pentecostals? They all believe these basic tenants.

Jehovah's Witnesses are a nomination that does not believe in the trinity and the creeds.

Catholics, Protestants, Christian Orthodoxy, and Coptic Christianity all beleve in the trinity and the nicene creed.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

1. Mormon theology teaches that "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
2. Mormon theology teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
3. Mormon theology teaches that there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God,
4. Mormon theology teaches that Jesus atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, not by dying on the cross.
5. Mormon theology teaches that God is a man of flesh and blood living on a planet near a star called Kolab.
6. Mormon theology teaches that God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus.
7. Mormon theology teaches that after you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god.
8. Mormon theology teaches that God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children.
9. Mormon theology teaches that Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins.
10. Mormon theology teaches that if it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.

1. Yes, we believe that more than mere belief is required; read the epistle of James, he said the same thing.
2. Yes, we believe that Jesus, Lucifer, and everyone else (no one ever mentions that) are spiritual brothers; so what?
3. Joseph Smith's mission was part of God's overall plan, which we will have to accept; if he really was a prophet, there is no reason to deny it any more than to deny that Moses was a prophet.
4. First of all, we believe that both places were part of the atonement. Second of all, so what?
5. We believe that God has a physical body; so what? And Kolob is defined only as 'the star nearest to the residence of God in Abraham 3:9. it's not a major point of doctrine, and non-Mormons tend to make oa bigger deal of it than Mormons.
6. That is an opinion held by some early church leaders; it has never been doctrine.
7. Darn straight it does. As I have said already in this thread, if God is all loving and has the ability to do so, why wouldn't He? Anyway, we are not the only Christians to believe this.
8. Yes, we are his spirit children. So what?
9. I have been Mormon for 23 years and that is news to me. Unless you mean his sacrifice can't overcome blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (a very rare sin), but then he himself said it was unpardonable. (Don't have the exact verse.)
10. Huh? No, like I said, Joseph Smith and the Restoration were part of God's overall plan, like calling Moses and Abraham as prophets.

You confirm that the LDS Church is not a true Christian church, despite the fact that "Jesus Christ" was added to the title of the church.

No, we have been saying we are Christian for the entire history of the Church. And the last time we changed our name was in 1838; even before then, 'Christ' was part of the name.

That Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. That He is the Messiah who's coming was foretold in the Jewish Scripture. That He was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered and died for the redemption of your sins, then rose from the dead on the third day.

I've said it before on this thread, and I'll probably have to say it again: Mormons believe all of that.

The beliefs expressed in the creed are the basic tenants of Christianity. Other than Mormons, can you name one denomination that doesn't believe these things? Baptists? Presbyterians? Methodists? Episcopalians? Greek Orthodox? Calvinists? Antioch Orthodox? Nazarenes? Russian Orthodox? Pentecostals? They all believe these basic tenants.

Well, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't. But it doesn't matter if anyone else does or not; no one has explained to me yet why a council of Catholic bishops 300 years after the beginning of Christianity should be the ones to decide, once and for all, who is and isn't Christian. You are using what is known as the 'True Scotsman Fallacy'. ('All Scotsman drink whiskey'.' I know a Scotsman who doesn't'. 'He can't be a true Scotsman, then because he doesn't drink whiskey and all true Scotsman drink whiskey'.) It is also known as circular reasoning: you say that all Christians accept the Nicene Creed (without saying why this should be so, other than the fact that most do) and declare that if any don't, they can't be really Christian.

 

[ironduck]

So god does have a wife after all? I've been saying that all along, but no one's been listening

What do you know about her?

 

[Newawd]

From what I understand, Mormons belive that the we (people) are the children of god. Unless I'm mistaken, that's a pretty basic and common tennant priniciple amongst churches that claim to be Christian. I'll spare you looking up places in the bible that state that unless somebody claims that the bible says no such thing.

Now, if I could ask a few basic quesitons for everyone...

What do baby dogs grow up to be?

What do baby cats grow up to be?

What do baby fish grow up to be?

If we are the children of God, what would we grow up to be?

Those are just questions. I'll let people answer them for themselves. IMHO, that's not some crazy philosophy... That's common sense. Keep in mind that I didn't make a claim, I just asked some questions to get people thinking. Thinking is good. I try to do it at *least* twice a week.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The Family: A Proclamation to the World issued in 1995 says that we are descended from heavenly parents. In addition, previous prophets have said that we have heavenly parents. That is about the sum total of what we know of our Heavenly Mother. I can see why our Heavenly Father would withhold details; given both the blasphemy said about Him, and the evil done in His name, there is no reason for Her to have to go through all of that.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Newawd: Thank you. We don't consider the fact that we can become like God to be some obscure, esoteric doctrine, but rather the logical conclusion of many things that God has said.

 

[Newawd]

@ironduck - You stated everything that Mormons claim to know about God's wife when you asked the question: She's God's wife.

Ever noticed that those crazy Mormons are all about family? They believe that families can be forever (none of that "Til death do us part" stuff). In all things they try to emulate their Heavenly Father.

The whole "Heavenly Mother" concept is something that Mormons don't talk about much. They figure that if they were supposed to deal with the subject of God's Wife, He would have revealed a lot more about her. I can see where they're coming from too. If you really want to upset somebody, talk smack about their wife. It's a topic better left 'out there' IMHO.

 

[Methos]

3. Mormon theology teaches that there is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God,

3. Joseph Smith's mission was part of God's overall plan, which we will have to accept; if he really was a prophet, there is no reason to deny it any more than to deny that Moses was a prophet.

That doesn’t answer his statement at all. Do Mormons who do not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet gain salvation? Yes, I realize the humor in that statement. Christians do not have to accept Moses as a prophet to gain salvation, so I do not see your reasoning to your statement.

7. Mormon theology teaches that after you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god.

7. Darn straight it does. As I have said already in this thread, if God is all loving and has the ability to do so, why wouldn't He? Anyway, we are not the only Christians to believe this.

First I’m curious as to what other Christians believe that they can become a god? Second, does not it state in the Bible that:

”You shall have no other gods before Me.” Exodus 20:3
” Thou shalt have none other gods before Me.” Deuteronomy 5:7
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"..” Isaiah 44:6
"Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" Isaiah 44:8
"For there is one God" I Timothy 2:5
"One God and Father of all" Ephesians 4:6

There are many more scriptures that I could quote, but you get the picture. As to why wouldn’t He? Simple, He is a jealous God (Exodus 20:5). When God states there is no other god several times in both the Old and New Testament how can you than believe that you yourself are able to become a god? Do Mormon’s ignore the teachings of the Bible if they do not concur with the Mormon bible?

 

[ironduck]

The Family: A Proclamation to the World issued in 1995 says that we are descended from heavenly parents.

I just read that thing. It says at the end:

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

Sounds like one of those 'the world is doomed if gays are allowed to marry'. I hope I'm wrong about that. Also, many families disintegrate all the time, but the calamities foretold by various prophets have not come true. Further, many families are best off disintegrating (divorces) because people sometimes grow apart and are miserable if they have to stay together.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

To accept Joseph Smith as a prophet is, implicitly, to accept all of the things that God did hear on earth, just as to accept Moses is to do the same. Now I don't think God is going to ask us specifically if we accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, but if the claims Mormonism make are true, then there is no reason not to accept him as a prophet.

What other Christians believed we can become gods? CS Lewis used the term a number of times in his work. I also saw a Catholic publication that mentioned the idea, although it was a long time ago and I don't have the quote. In the Bible:

John 10:34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Romans 8:17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Revelations 3:21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

These verses (there are others as well) say that we will obtain what Christ has gotten from the Father. You seem to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) that God won't allow us to become divine because He is jealous. Doesn't seem to be all-loving. We aren't saying that we will be Gods in the exact same sense that He is God, but He is secure enough in His divinity to allow His children to grow up to become like Him.

Yes, the Bible says there are no other Gods like God; we don't ignore the teachings of the Bible (incidentally, what is the 'Mormon bible'? Do you mean the Book of Mormon, which no Mormon has ever called the 'Mormon bible'?) because when we speak of godhood we mean fulfilling our destiny as children of God.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I just read that thing. It says at the end:

Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

Sounds like one of those 'the world is doomed if gays are allowed to marry'. I hope I'm wrong about that. Also, many families disintegrate all the time, but the calamities foretold by various prophets have not come true. Further, many families are best off disintegrating (divorces) because people sometimes grow apart and are miserable if they have to stay together.

They mean the disintegration of the family as a basic social unit, not of individual families (which disintegrate all the time; usually this is a bad thing but sometimes it is a necessary evil). The calamaties don't mean tsunamis or hurricanes but increased misery, separation from God, things like that.

The Proclamation refers more to the collapse of the family as a heterosexual institution; it only briefly mentions homosexuality. The Church (myself included) says that homosexual marriages are morally wrong; but I have no problems with it as a legal institution. The bigger problem is that heterosexuals no longer value the family, and don't place a good relationship with their spouse and children as a high priority.

 

[Methos]

These verses (there are others as well) say that we will obtain what Christ has gotten from the Father. You seem to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) that God won't allow us to become divine because He is jealous. Doesn't seem to be all-loving. We aren't saying that we will be Gods in the exact same sense that He is God, but He is secure enough in His divinity to allow His children to grow up to become like Him.

This statement is very different than the above one towards Sir Bugsy. In that statement you make it sound as if it is definite you could become gods. In the paragraph above and your quoted Scriptures it sounds more like eternal salvation, rather than becoming a god. There is a big difference in the context of both statements.

This has been discussed before (not here mind you) that Mormons who are good enough can in affect become gods, or their own Adam and Eve. In other words both yourself (in general, not you per say) and your spouse would be the Adam and Eve of another planet. Is this something that is false? If not, please explain it.

You seem to be saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) that God won't allow us to become divine because He is jealous.

That is not how it was meant, but I can easily see how it would be interrupted that way. My mistake.

because when we speak of godhood we mean fulfilling our destiny as children of God.

The above statement is something IMO you should have stated in your reply to Sir Bugsy. This makes things a lot more easier to understand. Understand that from your prior statement I misunderstood you as saying that Mormon’s could in fact become gods. This new statement explains that when you state godhood you are talking about your destiny. Do I understand your destiny as meaning your eternal salvation?

The confusion on the god statement really threw me off. Please, if possible, clarify those so us non-Mormons understand better what you are saying.