Matt's Mormon Thread

Eran of Arcadia said:
@El_Machinae: you may think (and ironduck clearly believes) that ending suffering in this life is more important than ensuring happiness in the next. But we are a religion, we do believe the next life is important, and thus we commit ourselves both to relieving suffering in this life and what we see as a greater goal, because its effects are much more permanent, which is helping people prepare for eternity.

I admit that I do struggle with the problem of evil, because it's the greatest weakness to believing in a Good God without giving him reduced abilities. MobBoss doesn't think that God is omniscient. Fallen Angel Lord doesn't think that God is all-powerful.

Personally, I cannot worship or forgive a 'Creator' if that Creator caused the suffering that I've witnessed. Also, because I cannot be convinced that God exists (such that worship is warranted or needed), I choose not to believe in God. Mainly because hating a theory is less productive than having alternate theories that make me happy.

The problem with suffering and religion, is that there are ways to reduce suffering in the real world that are forbidden in many religions. And I cannot accept inactivity regarding suffering as being the 'moral' choice, when one is evident to my senses and the other is a theory. And throwing in 'heaven and hell' as aspects of actions (not intentions) just confuses the issue even more.
 
One thing that makes the concept of "God" hard for us to swallow is our lack of ability to comprehend. Heck, I'll keep it simple. Lets look at Omnipotent (All Powerful). God is that, right? Well, the very word is a paradox! If something is Omnipotent, can it dig a ditch wide enough that it can't jump across? Can he lie? Before God even enters the scene we have set Him up for failure! We say he is something that can not exist in our limited understanding of our existence. Obviously, if an all powerful God exists, he is beyond our comprehension. We try to give him 'ranks' or ascribe abilities to him like he's some God from a Fantasy Role-playing Game. We try to quantify him with human words.

Lets be honest. Life on this earth is hard. Many people (myself included) have had a hard time coming to grips with suffering in this world. There are so many good questions. How did a perfect Heavenly Father (God) create imperfect children? *Man* that is a good question. You better believe there was a time in *my* life when I had to ask myself that question. The answer that I finally came up with was based around two concepts: Free Agency and Growth.

Free Agency is defined (when I speak of it now) as the ability to make your own choices and decide what you want to do. God gave us free agency. In doing so, he introduced into the world many of the problems that we see all around us. Yes, I understand that there are natural calamities and the like. Many of these have nothing to do with decisions made by mankind, but at the same time *many* of them have everything to do with the decisions that we make (on both a personal and global scale).

Growth is (in this case) the ability we have to become more like God. In order for us to grow stronger, we need to have opposition. Think of strengthening muscles... you need resistance. Well, we need resistance to grow stronger in more ways than just that. The resistance we face here on earth helps us to grow stronger (if we make the right choices). A verse in the Book of Mormon states:

"For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad."

Once again, I think that we try to put God in a cubbyhole (we humans love our cubbyholes) and say exactly what he can or can't do. We try to quantify him. We say, "He's perfect, so everything he makes must appear perfect in our eyes." We say, "He's all-powerful, so he can do anything." We say, "He's doesn't make mistakes, so how come there are earthquakes?"

I'm sorry for getting really deep here, but I'm trying to explain my take on a *hard* issue to come to grips with. The problem is not with God, but with our limited understanding of things like "Eternal", "Perfect", and "Omnipotent". We have these words that we tack on him. Why would he use those words to describe himself in the scriptures? Well, what other words would you recommend? We try to say what he can and can't do. That doesn't work with things that are beyond our comprehension. What is Eternal? What is Forever? When did it start? If God made everything, what made God? Or even if you are an atheist! Where did matter come from? What was it before it was matter? What was it before it was that? Where did it come from? We, as humans, have a really hard time grasping these concepts (that is, we *can't*). That leads me to the root of every religion: Faith.

We can't prove (or disprove for that matter) *anything* that is beyond the scope of our mortal existence. Even the atheists are out of luck in this category. Ever tried proving that there is NO God? We need to work on belief. I see where the people who say we are saved by our faith are coming from. Coming from the right perspective they are completely correct. Faith is the key to *any* religion.

What *I* believe is that God, our Eternal Father has spirit children. I am one of them. So is Jesus Christ. Jesus is SO much more though, because he is "the only begotten in the flesh", or in other words, he is the son of God not only in spirit, but in the flesh. He sits on the right hand of God the Father. My parents were (hehe) "less" than godlike. I believe that a few hundred years after the crucifixion of Christ, there was a "falling away" of sorts. The complete undiluted gospel of Jesus Christ was taken away from the earth for a time, as was prophesied in the bible. This period of darkness was not all bad. Much was done to prepare the world for the restoration of the complete gospel over the centuries. The reformation was very much inspired by god. It led to the Restoration. The first step of the Restoration was when God the Father and his son Jesus Christ both appeared to a 14 year old boy by the name of Joseph Smith. He was an instrument in their hands in bringing to pass the restoration of the gospel upon the earth, part of which included the translation of the Book of Mormon into English as he was guided by heavenly powers. His belief was such that when the time came to denounce his claims or die, he chose the latter. Most importantly, I believe that Jesus Christ is our savior. My savior. You, me, everyone. He loves us in a way we can only begin to comprehend. Sure we try to give it names and try to use words like "eternal" to describe it, but it's a pretty sad attempt to describe something we just can't understand.

Some would call me pompous. I would disagree. Pompous would be for me to say, "This is what I believe and everyone else is hosed." That is not my stance, nor is it the stance of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We believe that everyone will have an equal chance to accept or deny Christ and his gospel (gospel, by the way, means "Good News"). You may say, but I already *have* everything I need. Good for you. Congratulations. I'm far from it. I try to become more like God all the time. I fail more often than not, but I’m working on it. I believe I have faith, and that is what drives me to try to be more like Him. It's a lifelong pursuit. No, it's more than that. It's an eternal pursuit.

Wow. Sorry to 'wax philosophical' on everyone. I wasn't trying to get preachy, I promise. :). I just started going and before I knew it I had written all this.

Cheers. :)
 
Newawd said:
The answer that I finally came up with was based around two concepts: Free Agency and Growth.

That's what christians teach.

But what free agency and growth does a newborn baby with deadly birth defects have when it dies a few days later?

What free agency and growth does someone get out of being shot and killed in a random hold-up?
 
One thing that makes the concept of "God" hard for us to swallow is our lack of ability to comprehend.

No offense, but this is just hand-waving. You're implying that you're intelligent enough to 'get' God enough to believe in Him, and that I'm not. If I would just open my mind to the concept of Faith, I could see the light too.

That paragraph comes across as if I'm insulted, or that you're being insulting. I don't mean that at all.

Just because something is too complex or confusing to understand does not necessitate its existence - which is where the hand-waving comes it.

There are many solutions to the 'problem of evil', but none that meet my criteria of beliefs: that you exist and what I do matters. If I were to remove these beliefs (and it's somewhat reasonable to do so, but not enough for me), I could easily satisfy the problem of evil.

Free Agency does not require natural disasters to work. As well, Free Agency does not require that I actually harm others through my own sinning, only that I perceive that I am harming someone. Hence the problem with your Free Agency theory - natural disasters exist (which would have been preventable by man if we were given more resources), and I choose to believe that I cause harm to innocent people through my sins.

Your Growth parallel (to muscles) is a good one, but incomplete. One can make a strong bridge without opposing it. If God cannot make good companions without torturing them, then He is not all powerful. If He could, then torturing them is not Good.
 
I can't respond with much right now, but I wanted to El Machinae real quick on one point. I'm not implying that *you* are not smart enough to 'get' God. I'm saying that ALL mortals are not able to. It is beyond our scope. We can begin to, but that is all. That was the point behind my examples showing that the very words we use to describe God (Omnipotent, Omniscient, Perfect...) are in and of themselves paradoxes. There's no such thing as those things in the way we define them. The very words contradict themselves. By definition, they can not exist. We don't completely understand God because it is beyond our ability. This certainly does not prove the existence of any divine being. Such was not my intent. I was trying to show how it is *possible* for such a being to exist.

Keep in mind that as I get much deeper with some of this stuff, I'm stating my own opinion at times, and some of this stuff is not really 'standard church issue' so to speak. When I go to church on Sunday, nobody gets up and starts spouting about what infinity is, or that sort of thing.

I can see your concern though. Ironduck's statement really hit close to home. About the time my 2 year old daughter was born, my sister (who is also a Mormon) had a daughter. Her daughter was born with Down Syndrome and heart problems. She lived for a few months before passing on. She never made it out of the hospitol. It changed the lives of may people I am close to forever (including my own). One thing that helps me is to remember to look at things on an eternal scale. For baby Emma, her short stay here on earth was a blip on the radar screen of eternity. She will be resurrected. In that light, her death, while very difficult, is not tragic. Not when you truly believe with all your heart that she has moved on to a better place.

See, your analyzation of my Growth parallel is exactly what I was talking about. With the words we have, it is impossible to describe God. No matter what his nature. Those terms are paradoxes even before you apply them to a specific being. In those terms, God doesn't have a fighting chance!
 
New question for "Ask the Mormon" which may have been asked but I dont feel like going through the entirety of the thread just for this.

I dated a Mormon chick in college (for about 2 weeks) and she told me that Mormons do not drink either alcohol or caffeine, which pretty much ruled out m everything in my apartment. True or false? Is there some rule against booze and coke? Any other dietary restrictions?
 
If you cannot describe god at all, and even the words of 'growth' and 'free agency' are in fact meaningless because they don't mean what we expect them to mean, what's the point?

If god is so inadequate at putting across his point in a way that makes sense to us he cannot be very powerful. All this scripture and doctrine ends up being without meaning because we cannot fathom the real meaning of it anyway. If it's so hard to understand each person will have a different interpretation, and that leaves you with the problem that either all the interpretations are true, or most people don't have a clue even though they think they do.
 
Lol. I started out talking about what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe, and I am ending up defending Christianity. :) Woot!

Honestly though Ironduck, I don't see the dots you are connecting with that last statement. That's like saying that if you don't understand the most complex linear algebra equations that all math is a waste of time. We can describe God pretty darn well. We just can't undertand all of his complexities. At least, nobody I've ever met claims to be able to do so. :)

God is great at putting across his point. Do you not understand what Christ's basic message was? Here, I'll sum it up for you:

Love God.
Love your neighbor.

Once I've gotten those two principles down, I'll get right to worrying about whether or not God can dig a ditch that is too wide for him to jump across. :) When things start to get confusing is when you start to try to figure out what God's limits are. Frankly, and I think I speak for most Christians (even though some Christians would argue that I'm NOT in that group) when I say that I'm more concerned with trying to live a life like Christ's than I am about figuring out what God's limits are.

Imagine you have a friend for 10 years, but you never see him jump. Then somebody asks you how far your friend can jump. "Uh, I don't really know for sure." you reply. "Wow, why would you even bother to call yourself their friend?! You don't even know the first thing about that person." President Bush doesn't tell me every single thing that he can do. Does that make him any less real or less powerful? I know that's on a small scale... but you probably get my point.
 
Love God.
Love your neighbor.

I don't know if you deserve this. But generating affection for God or people can be done via brain damage or chemicals. In fact, the only way I could possibly 'love God' would be to undergo an operation. This is why I am an atheist.

However, I think that your statement:
I'm more concerned with trying to live a life like Christ's than I am about figuring out what God's limits are.

is perfectly acceptable. In fact, I certainly encourage everyone to become kind, peaceful, and generous. I'm not attacking Mormonism, because you guys seem to have a better grasp of morality than others. I'm just stating why I'm atheist.
 
@El Machinae: Interesting. Are you *truly* an atheist? As in you claim that no higher power of any kind exists? Or are you more the type that says, "Maybe something exists, mabye it doesn't. I just don't know, and I don't believe you do either."
 
Newawd, I have no idea how you get to the conclusion in that post to me. Everytime I tried to discuss the various aspects of christianity here I ran into a wall named 'we cannot possibly comprehend god's ways'.

My examples were really quite simple. I don't see how 'growth' and free agency plays a role in those examples. And then you replied that the words just don't explain it. Fine, but then how am I supposed to understand what the heck you're talking about?

It's really quite fundamental.
 
I'm glad you didn't take offense. You should know that I work with schizophrenics who are extremely certain about their faith and their place in God's Plan - and I can tell you that some are quite dangerous. And since most faiths judge holiness based on 'faith', and faith can be generated with brain damage, I don't consider it to be a proper measurement of holiness.

Honestly, I consider myself an agnostic, because I don't preclude that God can exist. However, I cannot think of a way to convince me that He does. A lot of people talk of miracles, but sadly, most miracles can be generated through sufficient technology and resources (and thus aren't evidence of a higher power). For example, Moses may have actually been there when the Red Sea was parted at his command, but that's not sufficient reason to believe that God exists or cares - heck, that 'miracle' could also have been performed by a supercomputer from the future for its own reasons, or aliens, or whatever other absurd agent.
 
@El_Machinae: That is, perhaps, where faith comes in. I cannot eliminate the possibility that forces other than God have caused the effects that I personally have witnessed that have led me to believe in Him. Heck, I can't even prove that you exist. But I think that His existance is the best explanation for what I have perceived. The faith part is that I act as though it is the case.

@ironduck: it is perfectly consistent with our worldview that there are parts that we don't understand. We believe in a God who is much smarter than us, so of course there will be bits we don't understand but He does, such as why some have to suffer more, or even in a shorter time. But it makes sense that if there is an answer, we wouldn't understand it. That may leave you in the position of not being able to accept it, but it is at least logically consistant. And it is true that unlike muscles, a bridge can be made strong without opposing force; but unlike muscles or our souls, a bridge cannot grow.

@joycem10: The rule is that we cannot consume alcoholic beverages ('strong drink'), use tobacco, or consume 'hot drinks' which are specifically termed to be any coffee or non-herbal teas. This is know as the Word of Wisdom. Since we believe in ongoing prophesy, the unclear use of the term 'hot drinks' has been clarified. While coffee and many teas contain caffeine, they are prohibited not for that but for being 'hot drinks'. Therefore, it is not caffeine that is specifically forbidden (and conversely, decaf is out). However, many Mormons see caffeinated beverages as violating the spirit if not the letter of the law and so refrain, but any Mormon who does drink caffeinated soda is not seen as violationg the Word of Wisdom.
 
El_Machinae said:
In fact, I certainly encourage everyone to become kind, peaceful, and generous. I'm not attacking Mormonism, because you guys seem to have a better grasp of morality than others.

Even as a Non-Denominational Christian who holds Catholic Beliefs. I oftenly feel like I have failed as a christian for holding homophobic views, constantly only looking into teachings that are against homosexuality, judging others and not liking people who are a different sexual orentation. I feel that this has taken a toll on my own spiritual and emotional well being. I certanly wish to be kind, peaceful, generous and a better grasp of morality. I often wonder if Mormons struggle with these issues that non-Mormons also face. Since I feel like I am the only person that is going through these strugles :(.
 
The Christian concept of the Trinity is virtually incomprehensible. There is only ONE God. That one God has three persons (Father, Son, and Spirit).

OH BTW, the "saved by Grace" card is the basic tenant of my faith. I am a Lutheran. I do not believe there is anything I can do to get myself into heaven. When Jesus died for my sins on the cross, there was nothing left to be done except believe. Does that mean I get to be a flaming A$$***e to the world? Actually if I want to be, yes. yes, it flies in the teachings of the Messiah if I do. I know, that logic seems a little off-base. But it is the core of the New Testament.
 
Newawd said:
I believe that a few hundred years after the crucifixion of Christ, there was a "falling away" of sorts. The complete undiluted gospel of Jesus Christ was taken away from the earth for a time, as was prophesied in the bible. This period of darkness was not all bad. Much was done to prepare the world for the restoration of the complete gospel over the centuries. The reformation was very much inspired by god. It led to the Restoration. The first step of the Restoration was when God the Father and his son Jesus Christ both appeared to a 14 year old boy by the name of Joseph Smith. He was an instrument in their hands in bringing to pass the restoration of the gospel upon the earth, part of which included the translation of the Book of Mormon into English as he was guided by heavenly powers. His belief was such that when the time came to denounce his claims or die, he chose the latter. Most importantly, I believe that Jesus Christ is our savior. My savior. You, me, everyone. He loves us in a way we can only begin to comprehend. Sure we try to give it names and try to use words like "eternal" to describe it, but it's a pretty sad attempt to describe something we just can't understand.
The King James Version was translated during this "period of darkness." Yet, that is the only version Mormons will read.

I would like to see some proof of this period of darkness, by the way.

As to the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's translation skills seem to be questionable. What about the "Book of Abraham" papyrus? He translated it before the Rosetta stone. A few decades ago it was found in Chicago and the translation is completely false. Using standard logic, if one translation by an individual is a falsehood, all other translations are placed in doubt.
 
First of all, the specific text that is in Chicago is not the same section that Smith translated, but from a different part of the papyrus. At any rate, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that he was not actually translating it literally - he always said that his gift of translation came from God, not his own abilities, and the papyrus may have only been an aid for God to reveal to him.

Also, what sort of proof do you want for this 'period of darkness'? (We call it the Great Apostasy.) We say that what it was was a period of hundreds of years in which the full truth of Christ's message was lost and his authority absent. That is not the sort of thing that can be verified logically. I would call your attention, however, to the fact that there was a great deal of religious conflict, violence even, and that some churches seemed to be acting in a political role rather than a spiritual one.

And yes, it was during the Great Apostasy that the King James Bible was translated. We know it is not a perfect translation - none such can exist since we lack the original documents for every book in the Bible, and each version has its strengths and weaknesses. We certainly have never claimed Biblical infallibility.
 
This concept of growth through resistance seems to be quite popular here. It's worth mentioning that resistance can easily be overdone and then it no longer leads to growth, quite the opposite. That is a very common thing in this world.
 
Sir Bugsy said:
I do not believe there is anything I can do to get myself into heaven. When Jesus died for my sins on the cross, there was nothing left to be done except believe.

The thing about this that has always left me a little puzzled (though this is the first time I've ever asked anyone) is how people don't recognize that this statement contradicts itself. I've had people get *so* upset at me (missionaries sometimes end up attracting fanatics of other faiths who somehow thing that if they speak loud enough it will make you accept their viewpoint) over this. Look. Correct me if I'm understanding this wrong: Our works have *NO EFFECT* on whether or not we are Saved. All we have to do is have faith in Jesus Christ. OK. This is where I get lost. Having faith is an *action*. It is something a person *does*. I would find that viewpoint easier to follow if people would say, "We believe that having faith is the only work that can allow Jesus's Grace to save us."

I promise I'm not "attacking" on this, I'm just honestly curious what you make of that selection from the Epistle of James that I posted. The part about "Faith without works is dead" and all that. I'm assuming you have at least a plausable take on that, or you wouldn't believe as you do...
 
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