Matt's Mormon Thread

[Sir Bugsy]

I was honestly curious about how Lutherins viewed that passage from the Epistle of James, as well as what he thought about those statements by Martin Luther. I've asked those questions before and nobody has really answered them. If somebody else besides Bugsy knows the answer to that question, please feel free to chime in.

Which passage from James? I'm not seeing a quote.

Oh, and I don't think Luther was only an anti-semite at the end of his life. Like most Christians of his time, he was an anti-semite all of his life. Does that invalidate his logic? I don't think so.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Correct me if I'm understanding this wrong: Our works have *NO EFFECT* on whether or not we are Saved. All we have to do is have faith in Jesus Christ. OK. This is where I get lost. Having faith is an *action*. It is something a person *does*. I would find that viewpoint easier to follow if people would say, "We believe that having faith is the only work that can allow Jesus's Grace to save us."

I promise I'm not "attacking" on this, I'm just honestly curious what you make of that selection from the Epistle of James that I posted. The part about "Faith without works is dead" and all that. I'm assuming you have at least a plausable take on that, or you wouldn't believe as you do...

Alright, I found it. I didn't go back far enough.

Now this is going to sound a little nuts, but hang with me.

Having faith is an action but not a "works." We believe that faith alone is required for salvation. Here is the KJV quote from Ephesians 2:8 again. This time I'll add verse 9 &10:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained F5 that we should walk in them.

BTW, I hate the KJV. But I'll quote it for all the Mormons out there. I use the New Revised Standard which is a little easier to understand for those of us who haven't studied Elizabethan English very much:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

We Lutherans love to quote the first part of that passage. The second part tells us that we are here to do good works. We believe that good works help spread the Gospel. That by living a Christ-like life we can spread the good news of Jesus Christ. However, those good works are not required for salvation.

Historically there is a contradiction between James and Paul. James was Jesus' brother. He was raised as a strict orthodox Jew. The Jewish law required works. James' ministry was to the Jews. Paul's ministry was to the gentiles.

Does that make those who insist on doing works wrong? Not in my opinion. They are setting an example and spreading the Gospel. They have faith and believe. In my opinion as backed up by Ephesians 2:8, they are saved by grace through faith.

 

[Neomega]

I know tons of Mormons, all my best friends in high school were mormons.

My favorites quit being mormons.

Here is what I know about Mormons:

When they get married, they get secret names for eachother so they can find eachother in heaven

Mormons, in general, dislike sex and find it sinful, except in the case of procreation. One priest, a friend told me had an obsession with knowing whether he masturbated. every time my friend would go in to talk to the priest, he would ask..."Do you mashterbate?" Mormon priest find masturbation sinful, and suggest recreational activites like basketball or homework instead...

Mormons believe a whole bunch of stuff, like Jesus came to America, and the native Americans are the bearers of the mark of cain, and all the white people were wiped out by the dark people.

Mormon chicks are hot.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I know tons of Mormons, all my best friends in high school were mormons.

My favorites quit being mormons.

Here is what I know about Mormons:

When they get married, they get secret names for eachother so they can find eachother in heaven

Mormons, in general, dislike sex and find it sinful, except in the case of procreation. One priest, a friend told me had an obsession with knowing whether he masturbated. every time my friend would go in to talk to the priest, he would ask..."Do you mashterbate?" Mormon priest find masturbation sinful, and suggest recreational activites like basketball or homework instead...

Mormons believe a whole bunch of stuff, like Jesus came to America, and the native Americans are the bearers of the mark of cain, and all the white people were wiped out by the dark people.

Mormon chicks are hot.

Most of that is not true.

We don't use secret names as part of the marriage ceremony, and no one is going to have trouble finding their spouse in heaven.

Sex, between a man and a woman who are married, is a good thing not just for procreation but as a way of bringing them together and increasing the emotional connection in the relationship.

We do not have confession, as the reference to masturbation suggests. We are opposed to masturbation. Although, like I said, there is no sacrament of confession, youth between the ages of 12 and 18 have a twice-annual interview with the bishop (leader of the congregation) or his councilers. He is unlikely to ask specifically about masturbation but will ask if the youth in question is following what we call the law of chastity, which covers all of our sexual morality.

We do believe that Christ did come to America after his resurrection, and that he visited people who had both light and dark skin. The dark skin was not the Mark of Cain, however.

Mormon girls, are in fact, more attractive than non-Mormon girls, on average.

 

[Neomega]

Mark of Cain - A mormon girl explained it to me as so, (or perhaps it was a story similar to cain and abel, I do not remember,), but anyways, she stopped when I started to laugh at the inherent racism, I tire dto keep a straight face as she explaiend her religion some more, but she got frustrated and quit because I kept brewing with laughter at how ignorant it really was.

Secret name thing was actually explained to me later by a different Mormon, so I am surprised to hear you say it is not true. I also heard from yet anotehr Mormon something abotu a special garment women were supposed to wear to bed, but did not mention it, because I was not too sure of it's authenticity.

opposed to masturbation.

I just find that funny. Of course mormon chicks only look hot. If a girl can't masturbate, I'm not interested.

Some more things about Mormons:

+They have huge families
+they LOVE basketball. I mean every temple has an indoor basketball court
+they LOVE ketchup... I don't know why, but all my mormon friends put ketchup on everything
+Their humor is clean, and quirky, and even funny sometimes, but mostly cheesy
+They are smarter than the average person
+allthough their missionaries annoy me by making me answer the door, mormons in general are way less preachy and pushy about their religion than evangelical Christians
+They have to get up 2 hours earlier to go to seminary every morning... which meant my friends were all getting up at 5AM to go to some sort of Sunday School before school... bleh!
+Mormons did not allow black people until the early 80's.

 

[Methos]

A couple questions I've been meaning to ask for a few days now:

1.) What is the significance of the holy longjohns that Mormons wear? I know thats not the correct name but it is the best description I can give.

2.) When I went to a Mormon church there were two Sunday school classes. One of the same sex, and the other mixed. What was the significance of the two? I believe it dealt with the different outlook or 'works' each gender was supposed to do.

3.) I've been to the site in Independence but am a little confused by it. From what I recall it is where the Mormons believe Jesus will come to when He comes back to Earth. If that is the case what is the significance of the site in Nanoo? Probably way off on my memory of what that site is called. I believe its in either Iowa or Illinoise.

I had more questions but they have slipped my mind. I'll try and recall them later.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@methos:

1. They are called temple garments, and are discussed earlier in the thread.
2. That's pretty much it. The first hour is Sunday School, with youth up to age 18 in age-based class and adults together (although new members have a separate class). The second hour is divided into Relief Society (the women's organization) and priesthood (in the LDS Church, the priesthood is given to all worthy males).
3. Independence is identified as the site to which Christ will first return at the Second Coming. Nauvoo, a city on the Mississippi River in Illinois, was headquarters of the church from 1839-1846.

@neomega:

1. New names, which are not supposed to be told to others, are part of LDS ritual, just not at weddings.
2. The dark skin mentioned in the Book of Mormon was only used to distinguish two groups, not to imply that anyone was superior to anyone else based on the color of their skin.
3. It's true that many Mormons have large families, but this is a cultural thing, not an actual rule.
4. Our chapels (the Sunday meetinghouses, distinct from temples, which have other purposes) do usually have basketball hoops, at least in the US.
5. I think they only do that in Utah. Mormons in Utah have different cultural characteristics from Mormons outside Utah (such as myself).
6. A lot of Mormon humor makes fun of Mormon culture and is thus somewhat obscure and can't be understood by outsiders.
7. I haven't noticed that, although I flatter myself that I am somewhat more intelligent than most (I probably just know more because I read a lot).
8. Answering the door isn't that much of a hassle, and I met a lot of people on my own mission who were glad for a chance to talk about religion with us.
9. Seminary is a scripture study program for youth in high school; in Utah they skip a period in class but outside Utah it is held at 6am, which makes it more valuable in my opinion (I only did it my senior year, but it proved to be an enriching experience).
9. Not quite true. What happened was that, for reasons no one really knows, blacks (specifically of African descent) could not hold the priesthood (which was otherwise available to all worthy men) between about 1845 and 1978. They could join the church, though few did. In 1978 the leadership of the church decided unanimously to extend the priesthood to black males, and since then the church has grown in Africa to a large degree.

 

[ironduck]

We are opposed to masturbation.

That's even more disturbing than your view of homosexuality being a sin. It's almost unfathomable for me that such large groups in modern society are opposed to masturbation.

Do you have women priests?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I can't imagine why you would think opposition to masturbation is 'disturbing'. I have never masturbated in my life and I am as well adjusted as anyone. We just think it is a misuse of sexuality.

We don't have a proffesional clergy. The priesthood - which we see as the power of God delegated to man - is only given to men, as far as the ordinances of the church go. However, women also have roles in some of the rituals and ordinances. In addition, women are teachers, ministers, and preachers in the church as much as men.

 

[downtown]

Some more things about Mormons:

+They have huge families
+they LOVE basketball. I mean every temple has an indoor basketball court
+they LOVE ketchup... I don't know why, but all my mormon friends put ketchup on everything
+Their humor is clean, and quirky, and even funny sometimes, but mostly cheesy
+They are smarter than the average person
+allthough their missionaries annoy me by making me answer the door, mormons in general are way less preachy and pushy about their religion than evangelical Christians
+They have to get up 2 hours earlier to go to seminary every morning... which meant my friends were all getting up at 5AM to go to some sort of Sunday School before school... bleh!
+Mormons did not allow black people until the early 80's.

-yeah, a lot of Mormons do have big familes. It isnt required, its more of a cultural thing. My family is pretty small...i only have two sisters. But i'm different than a lot of mormons

-i havent really noticed a love for basketball above other sports. We do love sports (BYU has one of the best athletic departments in the country, and most churches have rec sporting leagues). They do manage to support an NBA team in Salt Lake, so maybe there is some truth to that

-what? i thought jello was the mormon food.

-Mormons who lvie outside the "mormon corridor" (Utah/Arizona/Idaho) often do wake up extra early to go to seminary. I did it all 4 years in high school. It was helpful, but im not gonna lie, i slept thru it sometimes. it was pretty early.

 

[downtown]

That's even more disturbing than your view of homosexuality being a sin. It's almost unfathomable for me that such large groups in modern society are opposed to masturbation.

disturbing? Not masturbating is disturbing? ooooook.

I bet that this is something that not a lot of kids follow to the "T" however. I suspect that we oppose it mostly because it usually involves porn, which is a big no-no. Just a guess though.

arent catholics opposed to masturbating too?

 

[Neomega]

Are you allowed to masturbate in front of your wife?

 

[Neomega]

disturbing? Not masturbating is disturbing? ooooook.

I bet that this is something that not a lot of kids follow to the "T" however. I suspect that we oppose it mostly because it usually involves porn, which is a big no-no. Just a guess though.

arent catholics opposed to masturbating too?

yeah, and supposedly they don't masturbate either.. (yeah right!)


Masturbation does not require pornography, in fact pornography, if ever introduced, comes much later in life.

Masturbation among many begins at a very young age, many times even too young to understand church principles, and once you start there really is no stopping. It has been shown time and time again that EVERY healthy male masturbates, it is unanimous, in secret surveys, every male admits to it, maybe the surveys are just dodginf the mormons and catholics, but I doubt it. masturbation, especially for males, is quite natural, but even for females, can be natural, even hough many times guilt keeps them to a level of only "fantasy play"

I find the anti-masturbation thing a synbol of mormon's distaste for sex. I made the statement, and I stand by it, Mormonism oppresses sexuality.

EDIT: I will also add, that statistics show that those of the Moromon faith do not defy the divorce trend in America. So it really does not affect in any way the love 'tween man and wife.


http://killdevilhill.com/conservativechat/read.php?f=35&i=56&t=56


Note, atheist and catholic marriages are the most stable, at 21%, mormon 24%, baptist the worst, at 29%, and undenominational christian... 34%.

Also note, this study was funded by a Christain organization, it is not some liberal attack job on fundies.

 

[ironduck]

I'm really surprised that you mormons don't realize how messed up it is to forbid masturbation.

Masturbation is a way of discovering one's own sexuality. Apparently you are living in the Victorian era where the children were admonished if they didn't sleep with their hands on top of the blanket. Viewing masturbation as something sinful flies straight in the face of everything we've learned about human sexuality over the past century. Oppression of sexuality leads to a lot of problems, apparently that's not obvious to you.

And no, masturbation in no way needs to be linked to pornography - some people use pornography, others don't. Most women don't, for instance. But since you seem to think pornography is a big no-no, do you also think that erotic literature is a no-no? How about drawings?

As for catholics - are you sure that's the kind of policy you want to be compared to? Official catholic policy strongly opposes contraception!

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Yes, comparing one's sexuality to that of the Victorian era proves that it's maladjusted.

You need to do more than that to actually explain to me why it is somehow harmful to not masturbate. In the church we believe in 'free will' - which means that no one from the church is going to tie my hands together if they think I'm masturbating. And I don't view women as objects, I'm not a violent person, I live a good life despite, apparently, the fact that I don't masturbate. I have a question: do you know of any actual correlation between how well-adjusted a person is and whether they masturbate?

 

[Neomega]

Yes, comparing one's sexuality to that of the Victorian era proves that it's maladjusted.

You need to do more than that to actually explain to me why it is somehow harmful to not masturbate. In the church we believe in 'free will' - which means that no one from the church is going to tie my hands together if they think I'm masturbating. And I don't view women as objects, I'm not a violent person, I live a good life despite, apparently, the fact that I don't masturbate. I have a question: do you know of any actual correlation between how well-adjusted a person is and whether they masturbate?

Let's put it like this, you obviously are planning on getting married quickly, (as do most mormons). If you are 35, unmarried, a virgin, and never masturbated, you will be crazy, I mean insane asylum crazy.

The male drive to procreate should not be discounted, especially if it is a male eating more than 1200 calories a day, (which the average American is well above).

If you have never experienced an orgasm, the first time you do, you will be hooked for real, and want it every day. That is natural and part of life, and everyone male and female, has had the same experience. I mean EVERY healthy person that EVER lived.

Your wife, however, may not be as ecstatic, especially if she has not had an orgasm. It is proven fact girls who masturbate have an easier time reaching orgasm during sex.

So you have male, feeling for the first time (as I said doubtful, but I'll play the game) and female getting "closeness" out of the deal. 2 years into the marriage, you gonna have problems.

The mormon attitude towards sex is very negative, worse than catholic, (which has hard dogma, but in reality is practiced quite loosely and forgivingly)
I would say it is the worst of them all, which is why I mentioned it in my first post. The mormon families I saw lived in what I would consider a sexual nightmare. One of my friend's parents slept in separate beds. They had nine kids, but had always slept in separate bed. Crabby old people too. To me, this is a sign of mental castration, and therefore a life dedicated to a church, and not a family, not a spouse, not to life and living, and not to enjoyment of one's humanity.

Like I said, most of my close mormon friends actually left the church, or in one case, were ex-communicated. The kid whose parents slept in separate beds had premarital sex with his highschool girlfriend (non-mormon), and I know he masturbated because of the way he acted about sex. I am sure he isn't a mormon anymore either.

Bah... I could go on and on about how unhealthy and immature mormons were about sex.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I could point out that sleeping in separate beds is an extreme exception. I have never even heard of any other LDS couples that did that.

I have had orgasms before. I woke up in the middle of wet dreams (it just occured to me that I am disclosing an awful lot about my sexuality to strangers but oh well) so I know what it is like. What I don't know is how exactly not masturbating is supposed to warp me. Almost all the Mormon couples I have known have had, from what I can tell (which admittedly isn't much) as healthy a sex life as any non-Mormon couple.

And I don't see what's so wrong with being 35, unmarried, a virgin, and having never masturbated. If that's what happens to me, so be it. I'm sure I'll manage. I've known some screwed up people in my time and I'll bet a lot of them masturbated.

 

[Neomega]

What I don't know is how exactly not masturbating is supposed to warp me. Almost all the Mormon couples I have known have had, from what I can tell (which admittedly isn't much) as healthy a sex life as any non-Mormon couple.

So they can masturbate in front of eachother?

And I don't see what's so wrong with being 35, unmarried, a virgin, and having never masturbated. If that's what happens to me, so be it. I'm sure I'll manage. I've known some screwed up people in my time and I'll bet a lot of them masturbated.

wel, when you are 35, unmarried a virgin and never masturbated, you won't understand the rubber walls then either.

EDIT: I'll put it like this, if they can keep young horny boys from masturbating (which I doubt, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) then they can definitely keep girls from masturbating. Girls who do not masturbate, do not have orgasms in general, which is a shame, and means they do not get the full benefits of a healthy sex life.

BTW, that is what every mormon boy says, but wet dreams occur during sleep, and in most instances, only the nasty side effects are left when waking up, which many times can happen directly after, but rarely occurs mid-orgasm. In fact, if one were to wake a breif second or two before a wet dream, the orgasm would not continue. I have heard the mormon "wet-dream" thing plenty of times to know what they mean.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What's up with that first comment? Is it supposed to mean anything? And are you really saying that if I don't masturbate or have sex before the age of 35, I'll go insane?

What we have here, I think, is a bunch of people who haven't gone more than a week at most, since puberty, without masturbating, who are telling at least one person who has never masturbated that not masturbating is unhealthy. Now I realize that participating in a behavior is not necessary to condemn it (otherwise what would we do about murderers) but it seems to me that I should understand the long-term effects of not masturbating better than any of you. To be honest (if maybe a little inflammatory), you sound a bit like those in ages past who insisted that masturbation led to insanity without ever having done it. Only in this case, it's not masturbating that leads to insanity.

 

[Neomega]

What's up with that first comment? Is it supposed to mean anything? And are you really saying that if I don't masturbate or have sex before the age of 35, I'll go insane?

What we have here, I think, is a bunch of people who haven't gone more than a week at most, since puberty, without masturbating, who are telling at least one person who has never masturbated that not masturbating is unhealthy. Now I realize that participating in a behavior is not necessary to condemn it (otherwise what would we do about murderers) but it seems to me that I should understand the long-term effects of not masturbating better than any of you. To be honest (if maybe a little inflammatory), you sound a bit like those in ages past who insisted that masturbation led to insanity without ever having done it. Only in this case, it's not masturbating that leads to insanity.

No, actually it's sexual release. life is a ling journey, and to try to live life without it... well, most catholic priests are not really celibate.... it is the church's dirty little secret.

and, let's just say, the more you talk, the more it becomes obvious you are "bending" the truth. There are little things that indicate you most certainly have before.