Maudoodi & The Mahdi

Rambuchan

The Funky President
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I am opening this thread because I believe we will all benefit from knowing a little bit more about these two men and their influence on Islam in both the 19th and 20th centuries, and today.

History is a living thing and the ideas that these two individuals developed whilst fighting British colonial rule are heavily involved in the more radical brands of Islam we see so much of today. When we claim to understand how radical Islam works today, we should really be considering these two and the ideologies they coined, developed and gave to the modern world.

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Please excuse:

a) The lengthiness of these posts. It's too significant and complex to reduce it down to a few paragraphs.
b) My quoting from Wiki, they just happen to have all the detail that would be needed.

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First up!

1) Sayyid Abul A'la Maududi ~ aka Maudoodi or Maududi:
Sayyid Abul A'la Maududi (سيد أبو الأعلى المودودي, alternative spelling Syed Maudoodi; often referred to as Maulana Maududi) (1903-1979) was one of the most influential islamic scholar of the 20th century and the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami (Islamic Party), . Maulana Maududi’s philosophy, literature, and activism contributed to the development of Islamic movements around the world. Maulana Maududi’s ideas influenced Sayyid Qutb of Egypt’s Jamiat al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun (“Muslim Brotherhood”) another leading Muslim scholar of the 20th century. Together, Maududi, along with Qutb, is considered by some to be one of the founding fathers of the global Islamic revivalist movements.
Early life

Maulana Maududi was home-schooled before attending Madrasah Furqaniyah, a famous high school in Hyderabad which is, despite being named "Madrassah", not an Islamic seminary. He attended college at Darul Uloom in Hyderabad but withdrew when his father became terminally ill. He knew enough Arabic, Persian, English, and his native tongue Urdu to continue his studies independently.

In 1918, at the age of 15, he began working as a journalist for a leading Urdu newspaper to support himself, and in 1920, he was appointed editor of Taj, published in Jabalpore city in what is now Madhya Pradesh state, India. By 1921, Maulana Maududi moved to Delhi to work as editor for the Muslim newspaper (1921-1923), and later for al-Jam’iyat (1925-1928), publications by the Jam’iyat-i ‘Ulama-i Hind, a political organization of Muslim scholars mainly associated with Deoband. Under Maulana Maududi’s editorial leadership, al-Jam’iyat became the leading newspaper for South Asian Muslims.

Maulana Maududi participated in the Khilafat Movement and Tahrik-e Hijrat, South Asian Muslims organizations opposed to British colonial occupation. He urged India's Muslims to migrate en masse to Afghanistan to escape the British rule. During this period, Maulana Maududi began translating books from Arabic and English to Urdu. He also authored his first major book, al-Jihad fi al-Islam ("Jihad in Islam") published serially in al-Jam’iyat in 1927 and as a book in 1930. al-Jihad fi al-Islam is still considered one of Maulana Maududi’s literary masterpieces.

In 1933, Maulana Maududi became editor of the monthly Tarjuman al-Qur'an ("Interpreter of the Qur'an"). He wrote extensively about Islam and, in particular, the conflict between Islam and external forces of imperialism and modernization. He interpreted Islamic solutions and presented an Islamic perspective to the everyday problems faced by Muslims under British rule, on the problems of Western military domination over South Asia and on the influences of Western culture on Islamic society.

Together with the philosopher-poet Allama Muhammad Iqbal, Maulana Maududi established an academic center named Darul-Islam in Pathankot city of Punjab province. The goal of the academy was to train scholars in the political philosophy of Islam. Maulana Maududi developed a highly critical perspective of Western concepts, such as nationalism, pluralism and feminism, which he viewed as imperialist tools to undermine non-Western societies and enforce Western domination over the lives of Muslims. He proposed that the Muslim world should purge itself of foreign elements and wage jihad ("struggle") until all of humanity was united under Islamic rule. He translated the Qur'an into Urdu and wrote prolifically on numerous aspects of Islamic law and culture.

Political emergence

By 1941, Maulana Maududi founded Jamaat-e-Islami to promote an Islamist agenda in South Asia. Maulana Maududi was elected as the Jamaat’s first Ameer (President) and he was re-elected every year until 1972 when he resigned for health reasons.

Maududi strongly opposed the idea of creating Pakistan, a separate Muslim country. But after the independence in 1947, Maulana Maududi migrated to Pakistan. He began working to build an Islamic state and society. He relentlessly criticized the secular policies of the nascent state and berated Pakistani leaders for failing to create an Islamic political order. Maulana Maududi was arrested and imprisoned for advocating his political beliefs through his writing and speeches. In 1953, Maulana Maududi’s pamphlet criticizing the Ahmadis as un-Islamic resulted in widespread rioting and violence in Pakistan. A military court sentenced Maulana Maududi to death for sedition. He refused to apologize for his actions or to request clemency from the government. He demanded his freedom to speak and accepted the punishment of death as the will of God. His fierce commitment to his ideals caused his supporters worldwide to rally for his release and the government acceded, commuting his death sentence to a term of life imprisonment. Eventually the military government pardoned Maulana Maududi completely.

Maulana Maududi’s goal was to make Islam the supreme organizing principle for the social and political life of the Muslims. The primary concept Maulana Maududi’s propounded was Iqamat-i-Deen, literally "the establishment of religion." According to this principle, society and the state are totally subordinate to the authority of Islamic law as revealed in the Qur'an and practiced by Muhammad. This concept is one of the main reasons why he was against the partition of India and hence the creation of Pakistan. He believed that the creation of Pakistan would cause the citizens of Pakistan to put the interest of the state above the demands of religion ie Islam.

Maulana Maududi interpreted religion to be the central frame of reference for all human activity. He did not believe that religion was simply a private choice, as it is viewed in secular societies. He believed that religion must be manifest in all social, economic and political spheres of society. In Islamic societies, this meant that Shari'a should be the law of the land for all citizens, replacing non-Islamic civil and criminal law.

Maulana Maududi traveled extensively between 1956 and 1974 to spread his message to Muslims throughout the world. He delivered inspirational lectures to Muslim communities in Cairo, Damascus, Amman, Mecca, Medina, Jeddah, Kuwait, Rabat, Istanbul, London, New York, Toronto and many other cities. He made a pilgrimage and research expedition through Saudi Arabia, Jordan (including Jerusalem), Syria and Egypt in 1959-1960 to the locales mentioned in the Qur'an. On September 22, 1979, Maulana Maududi died at age 76 in Buffalo, New York. His funeral was held in Buffalo, but he was buried in an unmarked grave at his residence (Ichra) in Lahore after a procession thronged by teeming multitudes of followers.

Philosophy

Maulana Maududi is a seminal figure in contemporary Islamic thought. His critically important contributions are:

* His development of Shah Waliullah’s conception of Islam as a complete, closed system and as the only universal civilization. It is on this basis that Maulana Maududi makes a distinction between Islam and Jahiliya (ignorance).

* His conceptualization of Jihad as a permanent revolutionary strategy and rejection of the view that Jihad is a defensive war for national liberation.

* His total rejection of Western epistemology and insistence on the position that no new interpretation of Islam is needed to deal with contemporary problems and challenges.

Maulana Maududi’s goal was to make Islam the supreme organizing principle for the social and political life of the Muslim ummah. The primary concept Maulana Maududi’s propounded was iqamat-i-deen, literally "the establishment of religion." According to this principle, society and the state are totally subordinate to the authority of Islamic law as revealed in the Qur'an and practiced by Muhammad.

Maulana Maududi believed that the entire course of Islamic history was a continuous struggle between Islam and different brands of ignorance. Islam was not guaranteed victory in every battle, but Maulana Maududi believed that if Muslims were true to their religion, Islam would eventually triumph over ignorance. In his incrementalist vision, the construction of an Islamic state originates from within pious individuals who transform society from within. First, Islam spurs individual transformation. Pious Muslims develop communities of faith. These communities, in turn, mass into ideological movements that generate peaceful social change. The end result is an Islamic society and true Islamic state based on the will of the people.

Criticisms

- Maududi has been an intensely controversial figure. Criticism has come both from secularists and from within the Islamic religious establishment. Many of the Ulema who were involved in the founding of the Jama`at-e Islami left shortly afterwards in protest against Maududi's policies and leadership style. Both Barelwi and Deobandi ulama have accused Maududi of having turned Islam upside down.

- From the Barelvii side, a representative critique is that offered by Shaikh al-Islam Sayyid Muhammad Madani Ashrafi who authored a series of books on Maududi's misunderstanding and abuse of traditional Islamic terminology. Foremost amongst Deobandi scholars who have written formal refutations of Maududi is Shaikh Muhammad Zakariyya Kandhalwi, the late hadith scholar and influential figure in the Tablighi Jama`at. Kandhalwi's book "Fitna-e Mawdudiyyat" begins with a mention of how Maududi was expelled from his madrassah studies for insubordination. Both authors concur that Maududi's self-education led him to develop a distorted understanding of Islam. They claim Maududi and his movement urge Muslims to take up religious rituals (prayer, etc.) in order to prepare for acquiring state power, whereas some other Aalim's (professor) understanding is that the rituals of Islam are the purpose of life, and state power is a means to establishing the worship of Allah. The critics also point out that Maududi seemed to have no control over his pen and an unlimited sense of his own importance. He repeatedly denigrated the traditional ulama and the sufis, and, more grievously, defamed the prophets of Allah in his "Tafhim al-Quran" and elsewhere, and the Companions of the Prophet in "Khilafat wa Mulukiyyat."

- Secular and Muslim critics say that Maududi's political theory, like that of Sayyid Qutb in Egypt, is more influenced by Stalin or Mussolini than by the Qur'an and Hadith and the example of seventh-century Madina, while the majority of Muslims regard this view as completely borne out of ignorance and a hatred of Islam.

- Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi, the Amir (Head) of Jamaati Islami, devoted himself to the study of theology in 1927. Despite his great learning, immense knowledge and forceful style of Urdu, his critics — especially ulema of the Deoband and Lucknow schools — say that his lack of training in theological discipline was his great weakness. He criticized the Jamiyat Ulamai Hind for its composite nationalist theory which exposed Muslim India to the serious dangers of religio-cultural absorption into Hinduism, yet simultaneously attacked Muhammad Ali Jinnah’s Muslim nationalism as no less dangerous than Congress nationalism. There was no difference to him whether the irreligious Muslims of India survived in the form of Pakistan or not (Musalman or Mau Judah Siyasi Kashmakash (Muslims and present political tussle) , Pathankot, 1946, 6–7). It is in the tradition of medieval Christianity, and not of Islam, that Maulana Maudoodi developed the original ideals of Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and the Khairi brothers’ Hukumati Ilahiyya. St Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes provided him with the non-Islamic concepts of orthodoxy, dogma and heresy — and also with the rhetoric of intolerance age.

Dr. Haider Maudoodi, the son of Maulana Maudoodi, has openly denounced the actions of Jamaati Islami, the very same Jamaat his father formed and a Jamaat that is following his example to the letter. He stated in The Nation on 1/27/99 that his father would not allow his children to go near Jihad, but would sell this idea to millions of others; he would never allow any of his children to read any of his 80 books. While Jamaati Islami was encouraging an uprising by Kashmiri’s against the Indian occupation, Haider Maudoodi stated, “Islam does not allow them taking up arms against the State” and praised Pakistani’s for not allowing religious extremists like Jamaati Islami members from attaining many seats in the National Assembly of Pakistan. “My father though he could only use the people who came to him. But in his old age, he did get a taste of his medicine. When he was on his deathbed, these Maulana’s treated him as dirt.”

- Maududi was a key source of the extremism which caused the persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan, and the passage of highly problematic "blasphemy" and "Hudood" laws that have led to many human-rights violations being committed against religious minorities and women. This fact is well documented in the Pakistani newspapers of the time.
 
Next up!

2) Muhammad Ahmad ~ aka The Mahdi.

Muhammad Ahmad ibn as Sayyid Abd Allah (otherwise known as The Mahdi or Mohammed Ahmed) (12 August 1844–June 22, 1885) was a Muslim religious leader, a faqir, in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. He declared a jihad and raised an army after declaring himself the Mahdi in 1881, and led a successful war of liberation from the Ottoman-Egyptian military occupation. He died soon after his liberation of Khartoum, and the state he founded fell victim to colonial maneuverings that doomed it to reconquest in 1899.

Early life

Muhammad Ahmad was born in 1844 on Dirar Island off Dongola, the son of an indigent boat-builder and a member of an 'Arabized Nubian' family from Dongola. They moved to Khartoum for better prospects for his family, and all of Muhammad's brothers entered the boatbuilding business, following their father. Muhammad instead focussed on religious studies like his great-grandfather, a respected sharif.

Muhammad Ahmad learned the Qur'ān in Khartoum and Karari and later studied fiqh under Shaykh Muhammad Khayr. He was interested mostly in Sufi teachings. In 1861, he approached Shaykh Muhammad ash-Sharif, the leader of the Sammaniyya, to join his students and learn more about Sufism. When Shaykh Muhammad ash-Sharif realized Muhammad Ahmad's dedication, he appointed Muhammad Ahmad shaykh and permitted him to give tariqa and Uhūd to new followers.

In 1871 his family moved again to Aba Island in western Sudan, where he built a mosque and started to teach the Qur'ān. He soon gained a notable reputation among the local population as an excellent speaker and mystic. The broad thrust of his teaching followed that of other reformers, his Islam was one devoted to the words of the Muhammad and based on a return to the virtues of prayer and simplicity as laid down in the Qur'ān. Any deviation from the Qur'ān was therefore heresy.

Over the next ten years, Muhammad Ahmad travelled widely to Dongola, Kordofan and Sinnar. During his travels, he was struck by the hatred for the Ottoman-Egyptian rulers and found that as soon as anyone educated and well-spoken appeared, the local populations would declare him Mahdi "Saviour" and hope for deliverance.

Muhammad Ahmad was joined on his travels by Abdallahi ibn Muhammad, a Baqqara from southern Darfur, whose organizational capabilities proved invaluable. On his return to Aba Island in 1881 Muhammad Ahmad proclaimed himself al-Mahdi al-Muntazar or "the Expected Saviour" and began raising an army. Muhammad Ahmad used a V-shaped gap in his teeth to prove he was the Mahdi.

In Egypt

An understanding of the British role in these events is important. In 1869 the Suez Canal opened, and to defend the waterway Britain sought a greater role in Egyptian affairs. In 1873 the British government supported a program where an Anglo-French debt commission assumed responsibility for managing Egypt's fiscal affairs. This commission eventually forced Khedive Ismail to abdicate in favor of his son Tawfiq in 1877, leading to a period of political turmoil.

Ismail had appointed Charles George Gordon Governor-General of the Sudan in 1877. Soon after he arrived he started to end the slave trade, which at that point dominated the economy which was controlled by the tiny minority of Arabs. Before his arrival some 7 out of 8 blacks in the Sudan were enslaved by the tiny minority of Arabs; the native Africans formed well over 80% of the overall population. Gordon's policies were effective, but the effects on the economy were disastrous, and soon the Arab Social Ascendancy came to see this not a liberation from slavery, but a modern-day European Christian crusade and Muslim and Arab social dominance. It was this anger that fed the Ansars' ranks.

Upon Ismail's abdication Gordon found himself with dramatically decreased support. He eventually resigned his post in 1880, exhausted by years of work, and left early the next year. His policies were soon abandoned by the new governors, but the anger and discontent of the dominant Arab minority was left unaddressed.

Although the Egyptians were fearful of the deteriorating conditions, the British refused to get involved, "Her Majesty’s Government are in no way responsible for operations in the Sudan", the Foreign Secretary Earl Granville noted.

The Rebellion

Even after the Mahdi proclaimed a jihād or holy war, against the Egyptian Ottoman government, Muhammad Ahmad was dismissed as a religious fanatic. The government paid more attention when his religious zeal turned to denunciation of tax collectors. To avoid arrest, the Mahdi and a party of his followers, the Ansār "Helpers" (known in the West inaccurately as "the Dervishes"), made a long march to Kurdufan. There he gained a large number of recruits, especially from the Baqqara.

Muhammad Ahmad also wrote to many Sudanese tribal leaders and gained their support, or at least neutrality, and he was also supported by the slave traders who were looking to return to power. They were also joined by the Hadendowa Beja, who were rallied to the Mahdi by an Ansār captain, Usman Digna.

Late in 1883, the Ansār, armed only with spears and swords, overwhelmed an 8000-man Egyptian force not far from Al Ubayyid ("El Obied") in the Battle of El Obied, and seized their rifles and ammunition. The Mahdi followed up this victory by laying siege to al-Ubayyid and starving it into submission after four months. The town remained the headquarters of the Ansar for much of the decade.

The Ansār, now 30,000 strong, then defeated an 8000-man Egyptian relief force at Sheikan, captured Darfur, and, in 1883, took Jabal Qadir in to the south. The western half of the Sudan was now largely in Ansārī hands, and this state of affairs lasted for several years.

Their success emboldened the Beja, who wiped out a smaller force of Egyptians under the command of Colonel Valentine Baker near the Red Sea port of Suakim. Major-General Gerald Graham was sent with a force of 4000 British and defeated Digna at El Teb on February 29th, but were themselves hard-hit two weeks later at Tamai. Graham eventually withdrew his forces.

The Mahdiyah

With Sudan now in Sudanese hands, the Mahdi formed a government. The Mahdiyya (Mahdist regime) imposed traditional Islamic laws. Sharia courts enforced Islamic law and the Mahdi's own commands. He also authorized the burning of lists of pedigrees and books of law and theology because of their association with the old regime and because he believed that they accentuated tribalism at the expense of religious unity.

The Mahdi modified Islam's five pillars to support the dogma that loyalty to him was essential to true belief. The Mahdi also added the declaration and Muhammad Ahmad is the Mahdi of God and the representative of His Prophet to the recitation of the shahada. Moreover, service in the jihād replaced the hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca) as a duty incumbent on the faithful. Zakat (almsgiving) became the tax paid to the state. The Mahdi justified these reforms as responses to instructions conveyed to him by God in visions.

Six months after the capture of Khartoum, Muhammad Ahmad died of typhus. The Mahdi had planned for this eventuality and chosen three deputies to replace him, in emulation of the Prophet Muhammad. This led to a long period of disarray, due to rivalry among the three, each supported by people of his native region. This continued until 1891, when Abdallahi ibn Muhammad, with the help primarily of the Baqqara Arabs, emerged as unchallenged leader. Abdallahi, referred to as the Khalifa (Caliph, lit. "successor"), purged the Mahdiyya of members of the Mahdi's family and many of his early religious disciples.

The Khalifa was committed to the Mahdi's vision of extending the Mahdiyah through jihād, which led to strained relations with practically everyone else. For example, the Khalifa rejected an offer of an alliance against the Europeans by Ethiopia's Nəgus "King", Yohannes IV. Instead, in 1887 a 60,000-man Ansar army invaded Ethiopia, penetrated as far as Gonder, and captured prisoners and booty. The Khalifa then refused to conclude peace with Ethiopia.

In March 1889, an Ethiopian force commanded personally by the Nəgus marched on Gallabat; however, after Yohannes IV fell in battle, the Ethiopians withdrew.

ˤAbd ar-Raħmān an-Nujumī, the Khalifa's best general, invaded Egypt in 1889, but British-led Egyptian troops defeated the Ansār at Tushkah, the first battle the Mahdiyya lost. Further attacks into Equatoria were stopped by the Belgians and in 1893 the Italians repulsed an Ansār attack at Akordat (in Eritrea) and forced them to withdraw from Ethiopia.

The Return of the British

By this point British interest in the area was once again growing, due to the interest of the French and Belgians in nearby areas. As each of these forces moved up the Nile, the British felt they required a presence in the Sudan in order to validate their claims to it via Egypt's annexation. In 1892 Field Marshal Horatio Kitchener had been promoted to the post of commander in Egypt, and in 1895 they started plans for the re-conquest of the Sudan.

Kitchener's forces, the Anglo-Egyptian Nile Expeditionary Force, consisted of 25,800 men, including 8,600 British regulars, and a flotilla of gunboats. They reached and fortified Wadi Halfa in 1895, and started south at a very slow pace the next March. In September Kitchener captured Dongola, and constructed several rail lines to ensure supplies. There were small battles at Abu Hamad and Atbara, both times the Ansar were defeated by the massive English firepower which now included Maxim machine guns. Kitchener then marched on Omdurman.

On 2 September 1898, the Battle of Omdurman opened with a frontal assault by the Mahdiyya's 52,000-man army. Over the next five hours, some 11,000 Mahdiyya forces would be killed against about 40 of the Anglo-Egyptian forces (and about 400 wounded). The Mahdiyya ended at this point and the British once again took control of the Sudan.

The Khalifa escaped and reformed an army, but this was defeated in 1899 at the Battle of Umm Diwaykarat and the Khalifa was killed.

During their short reign, the Mahdiyya had destroyed the Sudanese economy and about half of the population died due to famine, disease, persecution and warfare. Their efforts to wipe out the former tribal differences left few loyalties intact, and internecine warfare was common. In general the country welcomed the fall of the Mahdiyya.

"The Concept and Prophecy of the Mahdi"

The Mahdi (Arabic: مهدي‎ ​ transliterated Mihdī, also Mehdi; "Guided One"), in Islamic eschatology, is the prophesied redeemer of Islam, who will change the world into a perfect Islamic society before Yaum al-Qiyamah (literally "Day of the Resurrection").

The exact nature of the Mahdi differs according to Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. For a more in-depth Shi'a account of the Mahdi, see Muhammad al-Mahdi.
 
Yes, it's a lot of information, but this material goes to the heart of many of the global Islamic movements that we find operating today. Please take your time, have a good read, and post your response to this information.
 
Far too large a post for me to tackle, Id have a nervous breakdown barely a third of the way through.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
Far too large a post for me to tackle, Id have a nervous breakdown barely a third of the way through.
Then let me pull out an interesting section for you :)

Together, Maududi, along with Qutb (of the Egyptian “Muslim Brotherhood”), is considered by some to be one of the founding fathers of the global Islamic revivalist movements.

[..]

He wrote extensively about Islam and, in particular, the conflict between Islam and external forces of imperialism and modernization. He interpreted Islamic solutions and presented an Islamic perspective to the everyday problems faced by Muslims under British rule, on the problems of Western military domination over South Asia and on the influences of Western culture on Islamic society.
Many more sections worth looking at, but this is something I believe is often overlooked in OT discussions on 'terrorism'.

Maududi's thinking is very much in evidence today and the context that he wrote in (British occupation of South Asia) is a situation many 'terrorists' identify with also, to some extent or another.
 
It's difficult to bring a subject to the masses which requires the understanding of context. That's not an attempt to sound superior, not everyone has the time or inclination to make the effort to understand on a deeper level that what the news tells us.

Kudos to ya Ram for the attempt. I'll be reading it as soon as work's done :goodjob:*

*All that effort and all you get as thanks is a bloody smiley. Demoralising isn't it ;)
 
Rambuchan said:
Then let me pull out an interesting section for you :)

Many more sections worth looking at, but this is something I believe is often overlooked in OT discussions on 'terrorism'.

Maududi's thinking is very much in evidence today and the context that he wrote in (British occupation of South Asia) is a situation many 'terrorists' identify with also, to some extent or another.
Well the British, and others, really stirred the soup up good, thats for sure.
 
PrinceOfLeigh said:
It's difficult to bring a subject to the masses which requires the understanding of context. That's not an attempt to sound superior, not everyone has the time or inclination to make the effort to understand on a deeper level that what the news tells us.

Kudos to ya Ram for the attempt. I'll be reading it as soon as work's done :goodjob:*

*All that effort and all you get as thanks is a bloody smiley. Demoralising isn't it ;)
It's demoralising to read folk pretending to know the ins and outs of radical and global Islamic movements, whilst also never knowing who these two people are and what they gave to Islamic movements around the world today.

These two sit right at the heart of the radical brands of Islam that the West finds itself fighting today.

But I am an optimist always. Some folk will read this, gaining a deeper understanding, maybe post about it, maybe tell their friends. There's always some value in trying.
Bozo Erectus said:
Well the British, and others, really stirred the soup up good, thats for sure.
Aha, do you think that anyone else is 'stirring the soup' today?
 
no time to read now.
skimmed it though... and me planning on looking up some earlier muslim philosopies too :D

will make a detailed report tomorrow. :salute:

[EDIT]
Aha, do you think that anyone else is 'stirring the soup' today?
i loves chickin sup massa ;)
 
You'll be glad to hear I've read it all.

You won't be glad that I still see no water to be held by your opinion.

Maulana Maududi’s goal was to make Islam the supreme organizing principle for the social and political life of the Muslims

Show me how this position is caused by British foreign policy. One might hold this position if Britain did not even exist.
 
The Swiss theologian Küng wrote an excellent book on the Islam (also on Christianity and Judaïsm) and the problems which the Islam is facing today. If you are really interested in the subject, then this is a good tip!

Thanks for the read Rambuchan. At the moment I have nothing to add...
 
Rambuchan said:
Aha, do you think that anyone else is 'stirring the soup' today?
Duh, I dont know Davey, I dont have the time or inclination to make the effort to understand on a deeper level[/Goliath].

No actually Ram, I understand perfectly. I just dont believe that bad things done by Europeans 150 years ago in any way excuses terrorism today.
 
JoeM said:
You'll be glad to hear I've read it all.

You won't be glad that I still see no water to be held by your opinion.

Show me how this position is caused by British foreign policy. One might hold this position if Britain did not even exist.
Agreed, one might hold this position if Britain did not exist. But it did exist and his writings display heavy reference to their existence. In reading his works, you can find a direct causation. The secularism, modernisation and westernisation that British colonial rule brought to the Indian Subcontinent were precisely what he was reacting against whe he proposed a return to religious ways of living. Here's a bit you must have read past...
Maulana Maududi developed a highly critical perspective of Western concepts, such as nationalism, pluralism and feminism, which he viewed as imperialist tools to undermine non-Western societies and enforce Western domination over the lives of Muslims. He proposed that the Muslim world should purge itself of foreign elements and wage jihad ("struggle") until all of humanity was united under Islamic rule. He translated the Qur'an into Urdu and wrote prolifically on numerous aspects of Islamic law and culture.
Anyway, I'm glad and grateful that you took the trouble to read through it all. Thanks. I hope it was of critical value to you.

Bozo: Like I said, history is a living thing. Those acts of 150 years ago are still happening today, maybe not in exactly the same ways, but they are happening. America has indeed inherited much of the British Empire. What I've posted here should provide some insight into where the reaction is coming from - ideologically.

Berrie: You're welcome and thanks for the tip! :)
 
Rambuchan said:
Agreed, one might hold this position if Britain did not exist.

Therefore it is irrelevant to talk about our foreign policy current or historic, when addressing the primary factor: the supremacy of Islamic law above all others.

I don't see how you can fail to see this: If you hold this position it matters not whether Britain sends love and kisses or bombs and ammo. We do not accept Islamic rule, that is their gripe and it's with anyone who does not concur.

Ergo, foreign policy does not cause reactionary terrorist activity.
 
JoeM said:
Therefore it is irrelevant to talk about our foreign policy current or historic, when addressing the primary factor: the supremacy of Islamic law above all others.

I don't see how you can fail to see this: If you hold this position it matters not whether Britain sends love and kisses or bombs and ammo. We do not accept Islamic rule, that is their gripe and it's with anyone who does not concur.

Ergo, foreign policy does not cause reactionary terrorist activity.
Doesn't explain then why we are the focus of their attention. Why not other parts of the world?
 
JoeM said:
Therefore it is irrelevant to talk about our foreign policy current or historic, when addressing the primary factor: the supremacy of Islamic law above all others.

I don't see how you can fail to see this: If you hold this position it matters not whether Britain sends love and kisses or bombs and ammo. We do not accept Islamic rule, that is their gripe and it's with anyone who does not concur.

Ergo, foreign policy does not cause reactionary terrorist activity.
I wish you'd stop quoting just the parts of what I say to you that suit your argument. I said a lot more than just what you've quoted and you've ignored it. That's why you're not 'seeing it'.
 
Rambuchan said:
Bozo: Like I said, history is a living thing. Those acts of 150 years ago are still happening today, maybe not in exactly the same ways, but they are happening. America has indeed inherited much of the British Empire. What I've posted here should provide some insight into where the reaction is coming from - ideologically.
This is why lately I dont like calling them 'terrorists'. The word dismisses all of that history and ideology and turns them into simple cardboard cut outs of evil villians. Im all for just calling them enemies instead. You can respect an enemy, but not a 'terrorist'. I dont think my idea will be catching on though.
 
I remember reading about the two in one of Gilles Kepel's books years ago, but your posts/the wiki articles go into far more depth. Thanks for sharing!
 
Rambuchan said:
I wish you'd stop quoting just the parts of what I say to you that suit your argument. I said a lot more than just what you've quoted and you've ignored it. That's why you're not 'seeing it'.

I have quoted the essential point that is the key to why your point of view is wrong.

The rest may well be interesting for other issues, but is not the essential point as to why you are wrong.

If you can fault my logic then we can continue the debate.


Otherwise, why should my opinion change? I have a logical arguement to which you have no counter. In your place, I would question my own point of view.
 
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