Mayor problems for team Roadkill

[CreeDakota]

I am surprised by the cottage arguements. I imagine will will be running as many specialists as we can since we need GPPoints. Also I am not sure how long we will be in bueacracy. During my set I will likley only have enough worker turns to do like on or two improvements anyway so we may not need to make the decision now. I think I will likely make one farm especially since we dont have pottery yet anyway.

I agree we should continue to aggresively pursue wonders, even ones that are often not considered top tier, just for the GPPoints. Math seems like a good choice I think Killroyan has persuaded me to go there right after alphabet.

Also the city site in Killroyan's first Screenshot is the city site I endorsed as well.

Since this map is so low on commerace a 'lake city' may make a mediocre commerace site?

Yatta recommends holding onto alphabet if it is a minority tech. I personally would likely trade as much as I could to back fill for stuff like: poly, med, monothesim, sailing, ironworking, and pottery. there is a chance we can get alot of that stuff with out giving up alpha though. It is hard for me to judge how ahead we may be from our great scientist.

 

[yatta77]

you could just press enter twice like I did

I didn't because Killroyan decided to play with events on, you know, butterfly effect...

iirc, don't we have to boost the culture slider to get any use from theatres for happiness?? or dye, which i don't think there is any on boreal maps.

True. But in our case, with coming entirely from specialists, and the need to grow the cultural borders of the city to reach the Domination %, this is actually positive IMO.

also, re: farming at the capital. it might be better to cottage them. I think we'll find that there is terribly low commerce tiles on this map, so we might need to take every advantage we can.

Sorry about disagreeing here also, but with:
- low maintenance from low number of cities
- high need of specialists to generate GPs
- low food map (tundra almost everywhere, except for specials)
- low health and happy resources
- running REp almost the whole game
I personally wouldn't build not even one single cottage on the flat grasslands located in our cities CFC, I would rather have 3 food tiles (4 food after Biology) and run 1 extra scientist each 2 tiles (or 1 each tile after Biology)!

i'm also pretty sure that you can't build lighthouses on lake tiles, they already have the extra food that ocean doesn't.

In this case CreeDakota option gains some extra weight IMO.

edit: and, wow ~ almost 100 posts and only one set played

And a lot of interesting points of views!

how about this for a second city?

It is just outside the third ring and will have 5 food resources.

Yes. This is the spot me and CreeDakota where talking about. Thanks for the Scree Shot and the dot-map!

I also agree on cottaging the grassland tiles. Commerce is incredible low on this map so this will give us an edge. The capital is not food high but perfect for a bureaucracy cap. So commerce and production. I say keep focussing on wonders in the capitol.

As said above, I personally disagree. Commerce (mostly ) comes more than enough from Rep specialists, and we need badly +6GGP from an extra specialist in city more that few more row commerce. We will likely prefer feudalism to bureaucracy IMO. Caste system and multipliers are a most. While most of the other buildings will be just useless IMO. I would rather build wealth or wonders either for GPPs or fail gold in case of fail.

Imho we should get the warriors out and the settlers. Set the capitol after that on hamam and hanging gardens. Instant bigger cities and more health. We do need to tech math though.

Altogether it is a good plan. And opens up to Music. We have to tech Math witch I would prefer trade, and give up on something else while following this plan. CreeDakota was more EE oriented, with a CoL beeline, witch was another good point of view.

We can't do all. The player who is up must take a side. Hanging Gardens for example, it is better or worst than Great Library? If you ask me, it is better the Great Library (and maybe the Parthenon) on this situation, so I would skip the other.

We need to start wars soon, we can't put too much production in wonders.

Ah... for got to mention: cottages get pillaged in defensive wars, while scientists doesn't!

Just my opinions, as always, whatever the player up choices it is just fine with me.

Also because after all it is often the best choice. I noticed that seeing people trying to give - often unwelcome - advices to chess players while playing: they talk like the player missed something obvious, but often THEY miss something deeper and more important the player instead noticed. I mean compare opinions prior the next turnset is nice, but after that, I personally give full confidence to the player up.

- yatta

 

[yatta77]

I am surprised by the cottage arguements. I imagine will will be running as many specialists as we can since we need GPPoints. Also I am not sure how long we will be in bueacracy. During my set I will likley only have enough worker turns to do like on or two improvements anyway so we may not need to make the decision now. I think I will likely make one farm especially since we dont have pottery yet anyway.

Exactly. My previous post cross-posted yours!

I agree we should continue to aggresively pursue wonders, even ones that are often not considered top tier, just for the GPPoints. Math seems like a good choice I think Killroyan has persuaded me to go there right after alphabet.

I still believe researching Aesthetics or Currency would be the best. We will easily trade Math in after that.

Also the city site in Killroyan's first Screenshot is the city site I endorsed as well.

Yep, we agree on being a very strong option. We are in 4 already I believe... So, good call! I guess

Since this map is so low on commerace a 'lake city' may make a mediocre commerace site?

Not really, if you ask me. This is teh game a FIN trait would be close to useless IMO, commerce comes basically just from Rep specialists IMO.

Yatta recommends holding onto alphabet if it is a minority tech. I personally would likely trade as much as I could to back fill for stuff like: poly, med, monothesim, sailing, ironworking, and pottery. there is a chance we can get alot of that stuff with out giving up alpha though. It is hard for me to judge how ahead we may be from our great scientist.

Yes, I would skip trading Alpha and wait for it, once they all trade each-other, bye bye tech lead. However, just the way I would do it, free to trade how you think it is the best!

- yatta

 

[yatta77]

Btw, what turn do we plan to win the Liberalism race?

 

[CreeDakota]

Btw, what turn do we plan to win the Liberalism race?

whoa I have never thought this way or planed ahead this way! How would you ever calculate or anticipate this?

What I do often do is try and target what tech I want or can get from liberalism. My first thoughts are:

1) nationalism for earlist possible liberalism. Nationalism may end up being a nice civic for us, Taj mahal is our only way of getting a Golden Age, and hermitage may end up being useful to try and grab more land for domination.
2)Astronomy with a goal of early scietific method and therefore the free Greatpeople techs of Physics and Communism and biology which I think will be powerful on this map.
3)or chemisty as an alternative path to Scimethod. Not as poweful to me since I forsee very few workshops
4)Replaceable parts-I can foresee potential for both alot of lumbermills due to poor hammers (plus what else can we really do with flat non riverside forested tundra) and windmills due to poor food. Potentially alot of hammers for us in this tech.

 

[pholkhero]

i thought we were going to be running specialists in the GPFarm ~ every GP from somewhere else will make the cost go up globally for the next one.

there's quite a few 1F tiles out there, and once we cross a certain threshold pop-wise, extra food is going to be eaten up by these tiles, leaving less and less extra for specialists. i don't see us using caste system a great deal, actually, due to the food issues.

though, due to happiness issues, we may not have many high pop cities ~ i don't know

i think our cities will become pretty production heavy in the late game, and perhaps we'll be using more GGs then anythign else to get new cities.

 

[yatta77]

whoa I have never thought this way or planed ahead this way! How would you ever calculate or anticipate this?

- Think you have 0% slider. Started wars, it will be at 0%, and we won't care.
- Count 6 each scientist, plus 9 each city (a bit less with a settled GSpy or GG)
- count +25% from libraries.
= You have a rough output in bpt.

Count the cost of the techs you plan on self tech, estimating the ones you will need to trade in as 0. Not too far away...

What I do often do is try and target what tech I want or can get from liberalism. My first thoughts are:

Excellent!

1) nationalism for earlist possible liberalism. Nationalism may end up being a nice civic for us, Taj mahal is our only way of getting a Golden Age, and hermitage may end up being useful to try and grab more land for domination.

You need: Aesthetics (self Tech), Literature (self tech), Music (self tech), Education (self tech). To trade in: Meditation (trade), Currency (trade), CoL (trade), Theo or CS (trade), Paper (trade or self tech if trades goes bad), Philo (trade).
You don't even need Pottery!!!
However on Emperor you can research up to only 1/4 - 1/5 of the needed for all the prereq techs.
And on Emperor you can easily add Nationalism trading it in from Education and get MT from Liberalism.

2)Astronomy with a goal of early scietific method and therefore the free Greatpeople techs of Physics and Communism and biology which I think will be powerful on this map.

You can skip Music, research Philo. But the best it is have monopoly on both (i mean be first to both). However, here you just have to make sure you have optics and calendar in time. You usually trade them in in time, sacrificing Philo or Music or in unlucky cases Education. AIs are stupid, the majority they always go Monarchy >> Feudalism >> Guilds... path. Yuk! And good for us!
AIs never prioritize Education really early for some reason.

In this game Astronomy it is a great alternative beelining Biology (another really good tech to have monopoly on it).

3)or chemisty as an alternative path to Scimethod. Not as poweful to me since I forsee very few workshops

On Emperor you can also risk for Steel, but with some bulbs maybe. But I agree this is not the path we want.

4)Replaceable parts-I can foresee potential for both alot of lumbermills due to poor hammers (plus what else can we really do with flat non riverside forested tundra) and windmills due to poor food. Potentially alot of hammers for us in this tech.

Another good call. Even Printing Press I would take it over Nationalism speaking for myself on this game.

However, the process is he same: see how many you must self tech, considering who is willing to trade with you and what you will get for free; be aware of XYZKQW limits (don't know the sequence of letters, however, after some limit the AIs doesn't trade anymore); however if you handle tech trading well, you really feel like doing some robbery to the AIs!

Not sure all this makes sense in English, however, this is the silly way I do it.

Cheers!
- yatta

 

[yatta77]

i thought we were going to be running specialists in the GPFarm ~ every GP from somewhere else will make the cost go up globally for the next one.

If you ask me: GP farms. We should pump out GPs in at least 4-6 cities IMO. Running each at least 4-5 specialists, sharing the wonders between them. Not all will have a NE of course, but they will all at least generate a couple of them!

there's quite a few 1F tiles out there, and once we cross a certain threshold pop-wise, extra food is going to be eaten up by these tiles, leaving less and less extra for specialists. i don't see us using caste system a great deal, actually, due to the food issues.

I wonder witch specialist oriented city we will have won't be able to run 6 scientists under mercantilism.

though, due to happiness issues, we may not have many high pop cities ~ i don't know

IMO the slider doesn't count. Just raise culture and build theaters, which is also good for border pops.

i think our cities will become pretty production heavy in the late game, and perhaps we'll be using more GGs then anythign else to get new cities.

OK!

This is a path, and a very solid alternative. I still believe that to make it quite early turn wise it can't be over 33% of our cities to have a GG, but if you guys prefer give more importance to hammers and raw commerce, I'm curious to see the output now!

Let's do it your way! After all I already tasted both the power of GP farms only games and the power of many GGs in my previous Immortal Minimalism games.

And I0'm really interested to see how this would end focusing mostly on GGs; I would personally target at least 20 GPs not GGs, and about say 12 GGs. I don't know precise, those numbers are just to give an idea of what I mean.

Again, I would face it a bit differently, but I'm really interested in following your path and discover how far you can go on GG numbers, I think I never had like more than 20.

Cheers!
- yatta

 

[pholkhero]

forget it

 

[yatta77]

forget it

what!

After I just finished uploading the edited image on the hosting server...

However, we need health up to 12 to do this for example, this is why earlier I was giving importance to the lake fresh water!

Cheers!
- yatta

 

[LKendter]

I don't think this map lends to caste - I vote against it.

Our best bet is one or two cities for running ton of specialists / wonder hog to get more GP. To many cities with lots of specialist will dilute the pool to much.

I vote to cottage the capitol.

 

[CreeDakota]

we should do both Ideas! Capital cottaged And try and get great people from several, perhaps many cities!

1)The capital is going to produce great people whether we build cottages in it or not. I am fine if we cottage it as much as we can. It does seem like a good commerce site. I still may build a farm if I dont have something ready for the worker to do. I could road to next city instead....

2)I recommend we try and have a period were we maximize great person points and try and get one to pop from most every city. Imagine a period of Golden Age from Taj, in pacifism, merchanilism, Caste, and starving if needed. Then For most cities once they pop a Great person they stop focussing on it, grow to Maximum population, and work on units or what every specialization we want.

Meanwhile, the two or three best specialists cities which have NEpic and the most wonders/food focus on getting more in the later era where they are harder to get. IF you get a really good Great person farm you can really rock so many points that you just lap all the slow cities and they never pop a great person anyway.

Ok and how about late game we persue the great people points of a National Epic and National park combination city? I think this map is perfect for it!

 

[CreeDakota]

also do we really care about a dirty pool? Isnt any Great person awesome since it our only path to a new city?

since we can only settle, what GP are peoples favorite to run?

 

[CreeDakota]

ok I played a 19 turn set from 72-91

Highlights:

1)Edrine Founded with Mayor Claus Von Stauffenberg as its Great Spy Mayor!
2)Alphabet teched, Both it AND writing are monopoly!
3)Next Great Peson in around 10 turns depending on micro to time it with next settler whip in capital
4)library in capital.

 

[CreeDakota]

Turn Log

72 Anarchy!
73 Anarchy!
74 Running Rep citizenin captial and build warrior
75 chop carry over into Another one turn warrior
76 start settler
77 whip settler for 2 pop, imperalistic!
78 start library in capital, worker finshes gem and moved toward new city
79 moving
80 settler
81 into position
82 Darius completes stonehedge! we really need to kill him.
83 find english borders real close.
84 Found Endrine, starts worker.
85 notice Endrine costs us 3gpt in maintence
86 start to pasture sheep
87 discover victoria has horses very close to us.
88 blah
89 """"
90 library finished in capital, two scientist hired
91 Alphabet in!!

 

[CreeDakota]

screenshots!

Note the drama of our settlers march through the wilderness!

 

[CreeDakota]

Notice english borders!



all espinoge on Darius. We can steal tech very soon if we want, or if we war to lower culture.



Note how close English horses are.

 

[CreeDakota]

ok And ill put the trade screen here:

 

[yatta77]

Nice turnset CreeDakota!

And nice tech screen, if you guys manage it well, over 3-4 turns you can back-fill almost everything without giving up on the Alphabet monopoly.

I'll skip my following turnsets, I played enough in the opening and I prefer this way.

Good luck to all the remaining four, I'll be lurking this game till the end.

Remember to hit enter at the end of each turn!


@CreeDakota, Killroyan
The truth is that after many years I'm eventually a bit tired of it.
I believe you are better players than I am, the day you will defeat a deity game, please drop me an e-m@il and let me know, I would appreciate.
Don't let others impose you to play with their brains, and you'll be on your way to it.

Don't give away my e-mail please. Thanks for your friendship.


@NihilZero, Nina: if you ever read this, thanks for your friendship.


@Zechnophobe, Habitus, and all the other cheerful members I had nice discussions with: Thanks!


December 16th 2011, post 977+1
Bye. Sincerely,
Jack "yatta77", aka yatta

 

[Killroyan]

Wait what, Yatta, noooooooooo....... Oh darn too bad. I am not going to talk you out of it. I respect your choice. We had a good run so far and if you are getting tired of the game then it is time for something new. We will keep the game going.

Things to watch out for are:
1) When are great people born. Focus espionage points on them to investigate the cities so we can see whether they settled them or not. If they settled the GP then get the army going and conquer!!!
2) We need to know where wonders are build. Stonehenge only fell now. Grmbllll that is why I wanted it in my test game. Easily obtainable, cheap and gives good GP points.
3) The idea behind cottaging the capitol is to get commerce going which is very hard on this map. Specialists will help also but we do need at least a few commerce resources.
4) I will state it again, AI techs slowly over here and builds wonders slowly so this gives us a huge chance to get the most wonders. There is not a industrious civ in the map which is also good.
5) Pollution of the GP pool is not important. We just need GP's and a lot of them. So every wonder we get and every specialist we run is important. We still want a good religion so we can run pacifism. And I still suggest the capitol for the NE and TGL. It has the best production potential.