MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster B

[MacBaldrick]

Oops - not paying close enough attention - contact but no territory or world map fooled me - they're asking too much gold as usual I assume.

When we finally go to war, might be worth having the odd worker near the action to act as bait for the enevitable counter-attack.

 

[AdrianE]

All will be clear after I finish and write up my turns ...
However we have full WM and are tied for tech lead (with Han, Mori, Tokugawa).

Short version:

IIRC, in 90AD Tokugawa had contact with the Han but we couldn't afford contact. 110AD (next turn) all AI civs had all contacts and we were 6 techs behind the leaders.

I bought contacts from Shimazu for old techs. I bought WM and Lit from Baejke for old techs. Then I bought Engineering from Mori and used that to get Monotheism and Feudal warlords. Then I used those to get Monarchy and Republic. Then I sold WM for as much as I could get.

 

[AdrianE]

50AD - status
Mori has Rep, Mon, Eng, 13G
Kuroda has 48G
Chogosabe has Rep, Mon
Takeda has Rep, Mon, 2G
Shimazu has 2G
Tokugama has Rep, Mon, Eng, 93G

trade WM around to net 28G
Kashima change to temple and pop rush
Otsu change horse to flagged
found New Ise in South

start westward redeployment of forces

70AD Tokugawa has communications with Han - we can't afford to buy it
I buy embassies with Takeda and Shimazu

90AD
Mori has Lit, Mon, Rep, Eng, Mono, FW and 4 contacts
Kuroda has Lit and 4 contacts
Chogosabe has Lit, rep, Mon,FW and 4 contacts
Takeda has Rep, Mon, 4 contacts
Shimazu has lit and 4 contacts, down currency, Shamanism
Tokugama has Lit, Mon, Rep, Eng, Mono, FW and 4 contacts

Trades
Shimazu gives 4 contacts, 2G, TM, Lit for Currency
Goguryeo gives 67G, TM for Shamanism
Baejke gives WM and 2G for Currency

Han has Rep, Mon, Mono, FW and Eng
Korea has Mon, Rep, FW and Mono

Buy Eng from Mori (best deal) for Wine, Dyes, ROP, WM,16GPT, 204G

I thought about this a great deal. As long as we have peace with Kuroda for 20 turns we'll be fine. I'm also building some harbours!

Buy Monotheism from Korea for Eng, WM, 3GPT
Buy Feudal Warlords and WM from Chogosabe for Eng and WM
Takeda gives Monarchy, 8G, WM for Monotheism
Shimazu gives Furs Ivory and WM for Mon, Eng (might as well be us who benefits)
Takeda gives Republic for WM and Eng

I sell the map for more gold

Revolt! to Republic
Switch prebuild to Sun Tzu's

IBT
Mori bribes Tokugawa (with our $) to attack Takeda

110AD - redeployment and WM trading, most of Takedan forces in our empire turn around and march west

130AD - watch Tokugawa and Takeda fight in our territory, our forces march west

150AD - more of same

170AD - found new Kuromo

190AD - trade Monothesim to Chogosabe for 74G, silks,4GPT

I note there seems to be a problem with the Flagged Samurai - they are only 1.2.1s not 1.3.1s. I had built a couple for defense. If they are really 1.2.1s then we are way better off with Kensai

210AD - Steady stream of Mori marching west through our territory.

230AD - Mori, Chogosabe, Tokugawa and Han have invention. I don't buy it.
- golden age ends

250 AD - where I leave it

We have a northern force of 7 Kensai, 9 horse, 1 Flagged Samurai, and 1 catapult in Yokkachi and 6 kensai outside Komaki. These guys are aimed at Yaizu.

In the center we have 8 Kensai , 2 horse, 1 flagged samurai aimed at Mishima

In the south we have 2 horse, 1 flagged foot, 1 warrior for local defense of Ichinomia. There is 1 kensai and 1 settler on the southern galley. Another settler is headed south. The little island will be ours.

Score 687.

Let the destruction of Tokugawa begin.

>SAVE<

 

[mad-bax]

Looking good Adrian.

Gormdragan: Time to show your warmongering credentials. You are UP

 

[gormdragan]

Err....got it...not sure if I am up to the task. In any case I am up in 2 SGs at once so I might only play this tomorrow.

 

[MacBaldrick]

We must take care as Tokugawa has alliance with Mori against Takeda. Will attacking him trigger an attack from Mori (not a good idea with so many Mori units all over our central core) ? He doesn't seem to bribable into an alliance against Tokugawa.

I've added 250 AD map.

 

[AdrianE]

We have a ROP with Mori and are giving Mori wines and dyes. I did this to cut down the cost of engineering. We are also paying them 16GPT. I doubt Mori will want to break those deals. However we could renegiotiate peace with him as insurance.
We also have current deals with Shimazu and Chogosabe. The eastern front is fairly secure IMO. However we may wish to keep a eastern reserve. There are some horsemen and Kensai as garrisons over there. We just need a few defensive units there too. If we divert some production over there as well they can demolish the rest of Kuroda in 10 turns.

Tokugawa is rich and may be able to buy someone in to a war against us. It will likely be a far away Korean country.

 

[Peanut]

From Peanut's Strategy Desk : If Tokugawa is in a war with Takeda then all his offensive troops are probably busy away in the south. Massing Kensai & Horse and advancing quickly may let us capture his capital (and the Pyramids I think) before he can regroup.

To do this we will need to divert workers to connect up border city conquests to speed up the flow of reinforcements as they are built.

We can then negotiate peace from a position of strength, perhaps pick up a few techs & cities, and pick our next target (the rest of Kuroda maybe ?).

Mori may have a trade deal with Toku which he won't break (at least for what we can afford).

On the other hand the offensive may stall, Toku may sign peace with Takeda, Mori and the rest of the loveable Japanese gang could join him in the fun, and we could be squashed flat - but we will have died trying !

So go for it Gormdragan - bite Toku on the ankles & kick him on the shins. It may just bring him crashing down.

 

[MacBaldrick]

Thanks for clarifying the situation AdrianE.

I agree with Peanut - the main strike should in across the more open ground in the North aimed at the capital. Take out Yaizu from the hills to the south (avoiding the river defense bonus), push on to Lida and then on Hamamatsu. A few blockers on the moutain W of Yaizu can protect us from any interference from Owase. A few horse should be used to tear up the roads behinds Hamamatsu before any troops can return from the southern front.

Take out Mashima & Ina only to remove possible platforms for any counter attack. Ditto new Fuji which will move the border up to a mountain chain which should withstand any counter-attack on that front with minimal defence.

 

[Peanut]

Sound like a good approach MacBaldrick. Our objectives should be to secure the wonders in Toku's capital and maybe a neighbouring city or two to the south as a buffer. The north-west approach down the coast will also be easiest to road up after our victorious advance. Any other wins will be a bonus, and if the going is good we should keep going to fish for leaders and to strengthen our bargaining position. Who knows - we might get an army and an FP out of this effort !

At this rate we armchair generals will have the war won from our backseat vantage point well before Gormdragan takes the wheel

 

[gormdragan]

Preturn:
One and only one comment: Mis-matched troops. Don't mix 2-move troops with 1-move troops, they will just slow down the advance.

I declared war on Tokugawa.

Wake up all our troops at Tokugawa front.

BTW, did you notice Mori has Kensai Odas too?

Kensai Oda means Oda (Nobunaga)'s Swordsman. So how can Mori have Oda's swordsman? Nuts :crazy:

260:
I feel like Heinz Guderian opening the floodgates of the german war machine on France.

Yaizu is ours, hmm, Yaizu has 6 defenders.

Mishima is ours, 2 defenders.

Since flagged sams gives us no advantage, I am swapping to horseman.

No trade possible.

270:
Koromo makes Kensai, starts horseman
Ogaki makes kensai, start horseman
Moriyama-ku makes horse, starts catapult

Owase is ours, 2 defenders.

New Fuji is ours, spawns GL. 2defenders. I will rush our Sun Tzu.

Ise switch to marketplace.

Ina is ours. 3defenders.

280:
Azuchi makes horseman, starts horse.
Ise makes market, starts horse.
Yokkachi makes kensai, market.

We make Sun Tzu in New Fuji, starts warrior.

Ichinomiya makes war, starts war.

290:
Lida is ours, 3 defenders.

New Handa founded, starts worker.
New Yokkachi founded, starts cat.

300:
Koromo makes horse, starts horse.

310:
Azuchi makes horse, starts kensai.

320:
Kuroda declares war on Takeda.

Ogaki makes horse, starts horse.
Hikone makes flagged footman, starts war.
New Azuchi makes temple, starts horseman.

Shimada is ours, 4 defenders.

Okazaki is ours, 3 defenders.

Stupid Takeda!!! units block my path to New Kofu. Need 1 more turn to reach it.

Hamamatsu is ours, 7 defenders. We get Pyramids, starts war.

330:
Chosogabe makes peace with Takeda.

Ise makes horseman, starts horse.
Koromo makes horseman, starts horse.
Handa makes cat, starts cat.
Kita-ku makes horse, starts horse.
Komaki makes kensai, starts horse.

340:
Azuchi makes kensai, starts kensai.
Yaizu makes worker, starts horse.

New Kofu is ours, 2 defenders.

350:
Fuji is ours, 3 defenders, we get Hanging Gardens, starts worker.

Kumano is ours, 4 defenders, starts cat.

Summary

(1) I have split our forces into 4 groups. (see screenshots). The decision was made because I noticed the terrain in the north and southern front had little mountains while the center front was full of mountains. Taking advantage of horsemen's mobility, I decided to reorganise our troops and strike at all fronts.

(2) Techwise...it is quiet.

(3) score is 857.

(4) I would kill off Tokugawa now. We have too many of his cities and we can't afford flips. Tokugawa is totally out of gas and we will walk over his cities.

(5) If you noticed, I built mainly horsemen and avoided our UU Kensai. In Vanilla, Kensai is a deadend unit. We should start producing horsemens as they can be upgraded to sams and then cavalries.

Next better player.

The Save

 

[Peanut]

Crikey Gormdragan ! What a corker of a war ! The laurels of victory are yours - Azuchi will stage a triumph for you. Us backseat armchair generals have had a great ride this time.

I agree with your view on the horses - although they have only 2 attack, they can retreat. Plus the upgrades should see us dominating Japan and probably paying a "social call" on our overseas neighbours before they are obsolete. So the more horses the merrier I think, and keep prosecuting the war.

Sun Tzu is a good choice. Should we go for an army or FP next time (assuming the RNG gods give us another leader this war) ?

Perhaps when we finish Toku and reach Takeda we can sign up a MA with Mori (to keep him on our side) and plough on into Takeda ? That opens up the possibility of having lots of Mori's troops concentrated in the south ... far from home ... just waiting for us to decline to renew our ROP with him.

That means a slow and exposed walk for his troops back through our territory, giving us time to rearm position ourselves and to open a new front in the north against Kuroda and then ... on to visit our friend Mori ?

 

[mad-bax]

Nicely played Gormdragan.

I have known for a couple of days that the Flagged Samurai has ADM values of 121 instead of 131. This affects 2 civs in the 1.29 version. In other words we don't have a Pike equivalent. The other vanilla team discovered this first and I didn't think it was fair to inform you until you had built a couple, the same as they did.

Alweth: You are UP.

 

[mad-bax]

Peanut: If you are around anytime soon could you post the score from the end of your last (beautifully played) turn please. I am at work and can't open the save, and I would like to update the score graphs.

Thanks

 

[gormdragan]

I usually prefer to make warriors as defensive units, hence you will notice most of the captured cities are making warriors instead of flagged footman. The flagged sams is merely an inconvienience to me.

Here are some of my thoughts after the Tokugawa annex.

Striking Mori is not preferable, strategically undesirable. Not only is he weaker than Takeda, he is also on the other side of the continent. I would rather strike at Takeda.

This could be achieved by starting a build up of "Takeda Shadow Force". Basically, we assemble a force (preferably horsemen for quick movement) and "shadow" (or follow) the movement of the Takeda troops in our borders.

From what I can see, none of the 4 "army" groups really needs any reinforcing. The one needing the most would actually be the north "army" group, as this is the group that has to take the most cities and yet has the "weaker" (I disagree) horseman. Casualties are highest in this front. The problem is sort of solved as we have Sun Tzu.

Instead we can assemble all future-built horsemen (and other units) to "shadow" Takeda's army in our territory. This frees up our troops in all the fronts to strike directly at Takeda. The battle is likely to be tougher than attacking Mori but we are wasting strategic time to re-mobilise our current forces to the east (which we later have to mobilise back to the west).

The short version is Takeda after Tokugawa and if the going is well against Takeda and reinforcing does not seem necessary, an East Front "army" group can then be assembled with freshly produced troops (part of this can come from "Takeda Shadow Force"). Clean up our western front beyond thought and then turn east.

A further plan would be to start constructing galleys (or more advanced troop carriers) as soon as we are done with Takeda (or when we are confident of victory) so that by the time Mori is finished off, we will have sufficient troop transports to strike at the 2 other continents northeast of us. These transports can be filled with the West front troops returning from destroying Takeda and Tokugawa and leave our Mori War party free to destroy Mori.

It is would be IMHO strategically efficient if we can plan in such a way so that the war on Takeda starts right after (in other words on the same turn) Tokugawa dies, Mori right after Takeda is destroyed. And ships loaded and ready to move right after Mori is terminated (with Kuroda along the way ).

This is how i vision our future at the end of my turns. My 2 cents.

@ Peanut

I do not intend to let this game reach industrial ages, or at least not much into IA. Cavalries are all I expect needed for us to close this game up. Hence horsemen are better investments. I would make our next GL our FP or if we get invention by then, Leo (of course unless Takeda or Mori builds it for us) as we have mass upgrading coming up with chivalry. I would think making an army at this point is cosmetic and of no significant value, I would go for hurried production instead. My 2 more cents .

 

[mad-bax]

I agree with all your comments Gormdragan.
I would put our FP in the Pyramid city, forget its' name. I would continue west with the current war until we have driven the AI into the sea. New units should open a second front in the East, and we should conduct the war on two fronts.
Building horses rather than Oda is important, and I favoured them on my turns. However, with this type of terrain some of the advantage is lost without roads, so we need to organise some road building parties, and churn out another dozen or so workers quickly.

I think the time to start building ship transport is now. All our coastal cities can be dedicated to this.

If we are really clever, we can research to military tradition and avoid learning Education. If we do it right we can take the "Korean" city with the Great Library and get well educated rather quickly.

Mainly though, wars should be continuous, without a break. The FP needs building ASAP. The next leader won't be long in coming, and we need to build a navy so we are not hanging around for a few boats when our landmass is cleared. At current rates that will be within 30 turns.

I only wish I could open the save... only a few more hours.

 

[AdrianE]

Nicely done.

Maybe we should reduce Tokugawa to one city and then make peace for techs? We might also want to rush a few temples in the new Oda to stop the others from poaching.

I like Kumano for the FP as it is in the center of the landmass. Hammatsu is't bad but it will benefit fewer cities.

I think Takeda is the next logical target. Then I don't know. It will take a very long time to march across our lands to get to Mori. Note that its a short hop to the Korean lands from the western most point of Tokugawa.

The Han could be a real problem if left alone too long.

 

[gormdragan]

We have too many cities that used to be Tokugawa's. Tokugawa has to die, tech is not important.

I agree with the temple rush (was trying to stockpile $$$ for mass sam upgrades).

Han is powerful but is beyond us until we at least get navigation. So no point worrying about them.

I like to emphase that i think Leo is more important than FP. Please consider that possibility b4 rushing our next GL. Remember we are gearing up for a mass upgrade once we get chivalry.

I think that the 2 front war suggested by mad-bax sounds good. In that way, the troops moving back from western front can assemble onto troop transports for invasion of the 2 other northern continents. BTW, our road system to the front is actually in pretty good shape. every worker we captured were used to connect our new cities. So the time taken to move our troops back may not be that bad. My 2 cents.

 

[Peanut]

Originally posted by mad-bax
Peanut: If you are around anytime soon could you post the score from the end of your last (beautifully played) turn please. I am at work and can't open the save, and I would like to update the score graphs.

Thanks

Oops I forgot to do it - I will fix when I get home tonight.

 

[mad-bax]

Since Alweth has not posted a "Got it" within the 24hrs required he is skipped.

MacBaldrick: You are UP