MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [civ3] Roster B

[mad-bax]

FWIW I think that these units can be used to give "worthless" corrupt cities something to do.

What if -- you get a food rich corrupt 1 shield city to size 8 (say), draft a rifle and disband it. The city is building a kamikaze. A disbanded rifle gets you 20 shields. Do the same next turn and Bobs your uncle.

My view. Keep all cities on rivers and lakes. Irrigate every tile, maybe even rush a granary. Get a free Kamikaze every three turns if you can get the city to +10 food.

Have I mad a mistake?

 

[Peanut]

The only complication I can see would be the unhappiness that's created by the drafting. It may make the town useless for a while after a few cycles. On the other hand with some obsolete troops as MPs and gaining access to the Shimazu luxuries this may not be a problem.

As for towns - we will have all the hopelessly corrupt former Tokugawa, Kuroda, Mori, Takeda, Chosogabe and freshly captured Shimazu towns all queueing to join the glorious war effort in this new way. Better for them than churning out 1 or 2 gpt on wealth and supporting a few scientists.

So look out Uncle Bob - looks like you're going to be very busy very soon.

 

[mad-bax]

On the same theme...
Since we have a conquest objective, we will be razing cities soon which will give us large numbers of workers. This will allow us to join native workers to cities for pop rushing/drafting purposes, with the side effect of reducing our unit costs.

We need to consider our financial situation carefully. We can effectively pop rush cruise missiles in corrupt cities, but this is not all we can do. My feeling ATM is that once we have flight and Mechanised transport we do not need to research anything else.
If we turn off research, we should be able to sell all our libraries and unis to save the upkeep costs, and maximise our net income, even hiring taxmen in corrupt cities even where slow starvation occurs.

By doing this we can generate enough income to start rushing and short rushing units. The increased rate of tank production will allow us an earlier finish and give us a shot at the top prize.

Finally, I would welcome everyones thoughts on arty production. If we are building Kamikaze, to what extent do we need arty? My opinion (FWIW) is that we can soften up targets with Kamikaze instead of arty. I would still build some, but maybe 25 would be adequate as opposed to the 100+ I usually build.

 

[AdrianE]

I think the Kamikaze's most useful role is to sink any ship that threatens our sea lanes or homeland assuming it has lethal bombardment. However once we get flight and build airports (including an airport in the Han continent), the sealanes become irrelevant (except for workers and artillery).

Railroads and artillery will still be more flexible and powerful over the long run. 80S build an artillery that should last forever. Or we could build 2x1 shot kamikaze's. I know what I'd rather have.

If the Kamikaze's have lethal bombardment then they can be used as finishers on redlined units.

Kamikazes can range 6 IIRC. In some limited cases a range 6 bombardment could be most useful. For example if the cultural borders are too big for artillery/rails.

We could prebuild Kamikazes in our corrupt towns, starting now and cash rush them when we have flight.

Our cash flow should drastically improve once we capture Smiths. Don't the Shimazu have it?

I don't like the idea of drafting as pop rushing as it creates unhappiness and that will affect the score in a minor way.

 

[mad-bax]

OK. Alweth still hasn't picked this up, so I will play tonight. I assume I can get it done in one sitting, though that may be a little optimistic. I haven't downloaded the save yet, but hopefully we are reasonably set to take on the Shimazu.

I am tempted to sign an MPP or MA with the Han since this may degrade the navies of both opponents, I'll have to think about it.

The Shimazu have a 1 tile city. I think it may be preferable to get this city in a peace deal rather than take the amphibious route.

EDIT: Re-reading Peanuts post I see the Han and Shimazu already have an MPP. Therefore I will do my best to sign an MPP with the Han and allow the Shimazu to attack first. I don't really fancy taking the Shimazu and Han together. It's doable, but it would be messy.

 

[AdrianE]

mad-bax

Be careful with the Shimazu and their MPP with the Han. I *think* peanut has our troops in Shimazu land already. That's if I read his report correctly.

 

[mad-bax]

Well, now I'm forced into an ROP Rape, but at this stage it's the least of our worries. I am also forced to allow the Shimazu the first blow as it were, but 10 infantry on a stack af arty should hold up OK.

The only real issue is being able to get an MPP with the Han. If we can't, they will declare on us which will make sea travel a little hazardous. The main reason I want the Han and The Shimazu at war is to degrade their respective navies. On the other hand, a 20 turn deal with the Han restricts when we can declare war on them (to some extent). We must do the Han after the Shimazu, and we will probably have to be at war with all the remaining civs soon in order to stop them backfilling the cities we raze.

It's swings and roundabouts really.

 

[Peanut]

Some additional and probably obsolete follow-up comments ...

Yes there is a beach head stack of 10 infantry + 6 artillery landed on a hill. It is intended to draw an attack from cavalry, and to give a safe landing point for the cavalry / artillery swarm following (they were waiting for a junk->transport upgrade).

I chose that landing area as a town settled on the southern Shimadzu coast can be placed a single transport ship voyage from our north-east coast - meaning with enough transports units can be built, railed, transported, unshipped and into action on the same turn !

Mad-bax : If you can get an MPP with the Han in your pre-turn then it may work our way. It is worth trying. But I suspect that if we refuse to leave Shimadzu that is a declaration of war which will will draw the Han in on Shimadzu's side. I don't know if it is the declaration or the first attack that triggers an MPP. If it is the first attack, is the defensive artillery round considered the first exchange of fire ? Hmmm ...

Anyway, a war with the Han will probably not be a very active affair as AIs rarely invade by sea in strength. Just keeping a half dozen or so cavalry+artillery for home defence should be adequate, supported in a pinch by our faithful but ageing Kensai. Who knows - we may get a leader from crushing the likely minor landings of cavalry / longbows/ etc.

The one thing I didn't do is to identify Shimadzu's oil, iron & (nore importantly) rubber supplies. These may be open to sea bombardment by ironclads or destroyers, cutting off their access to infantry. Best of luck - I have a feeling that the Shimadzu war will be a long, slow campaign as it is basically our Cavalry+artillery vs. their Infantry in 12+ cities with railroad access for reinforcements. Some pillaging may be needed to isolate besieged cities.

Oh yes - we may want to give away our one defenceless town on the other continent to someone harmless like Mori or Chosogabe.

edit - oops ... directions corrected - east is not west nor vice versa ...

 

[mad-bax]

Peanut: where a civ has a MPP with 2 other civs then it is not who declares war that determines the aggressor, but who is first to attack.

For example

1400AD: Preturn. Well Peanut has put a lot of effort into getting our house in order. The only thing I would say is that setting specialists to scientist with research set at 0% seems odd. I think getting tanks is important for us. The sooner the better, soI turn up science to 70%.

Sign MPP with Han for Free.

Hold on to your hats...

IBT:
Shimazu demand we leave. So war it is.
Han declare war on Shimazu.
Shimazu raze Azuchi 2
Grow some trees on our lawn.

1405AD:
I need to take this really slowly. Cancelling our deals with the Shimazu has cost us about 200gpt in total.

Disembark all troops onto the same tile as the others.
Bombard some shipping
Raze Karatzu without loss.
Change a load of 1 shield towns from wealth to Arty, as Kamikaze pre-builds.
Rebuild Azuchi2 to fill cultural void.
Bombard Kokubu down to size 12
No attacks possible with ground troops this turn.

IBT:
Korea Declare war on the Han.

1410AD:
The 20 arty bombardment of Kokubu is almost completely unsuccessful. Do I attack or would it be more prudent to wait? I can wait another turn I think. Even if I raze the city I will not be able to settle a new one this turn.

I fear for the interturn.

IBT:
Not much happened surprisingly. We killed one Kensai. We lost nothing.

1415AD:
Bombarded Kokubu again. A bit better this time. I guess I have to go for the attack sometime.

Kokubu
Vet Cav vs 2/3 inf wins
vet cav vs 2/4 inf wins and is promoted.
vet cav vs 2/4 inf dies
vet cav vs 2/5 inf dies
vet cav vs 4/4 cav wins
vet cav vs 1/5 inf dies. that stinks.
vet cav vs 1/5 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/5 inf wins taking city, which we raze.

Open ground
Elite cav vs vet cav.

Unloaded a SOD on the Saltpetre south of Miydonojo, only to realise most of the Infantry have no movement points left so I can't unload them. Could lose the unloaded units now as they are a bit weak.

Found Hikone2 on Shimazu territory.

IBT:
This is the most amazing inter turn I can remember. The Shimazu send everything they have against Hikone2. Their whole army is cut to pieces by our arty and our infantry.
Many die and there are 37 redlined units within our city radius. We didn't lose a single unit. Well done Peanut. I owe you big time.

1420AD:
I physically did not have enough troops to take out all the red-lined units. I left 2.
So I kill 35 units for the loss of one cav. That has to be useful. No leaders amazingly, though I have to say I didn't deserve one.

IBT:
A trade embargo between Korea and the Chesogabe against us ends.
The Shimazu want to talk. I'm not surprised.
The lux deal runs out with the Han. This hurts. We are one turn from Mass Production.
Again I don't know what to do.

1425AD:
Miydonojo.
Initial bombardment was reasonable. But still a few 3HP inf in the city. Still, it has to be done.

vet cav vs 3/3 inf wins
Elite cav vs 2/4 inf wins
Elite cav vs 2/4 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins taking city.

I can't remember if I have a settler in the stack. I risk it and raze the city. I do have a settler, but decide to move him first to get the ivory.

I am forced to revolt. Fair enough.

IBT:
Not Pretty. Lots of rioting. Bah humbug.
The Koreans Declare war on us. This means we will probably need the UN.

Even with shift-automated workers turns are taking an age. I'll finish tomorrow. I get the impression the Shimazu have shot their bolt now. It's just a question of patiently bombarding each city to pop 12 or less and getting the infantry garrisons to 2HP or less. This is the only way losses are acceptable using cav. Tanks are 10 turns away probably.

 

[Peanut]

Mad-bax : oops ... the scientists were left over from my frantic drive to Steel & Combustion, finished last turn. I forgot to switch them back to tax when I paused research to save cash for transport & artillery upgrades.

I suspected that landing lots of infantry + artillery would be useful for exhausting Shimadzu's attackers. Looks like you proved it. Also - good trick with the Han MPP. Well done.

Looks like a magnificently prosecuted war - jolly good show !

 

[mad-bax]

I'm pretty sure that I have taken out all of Shimazus cavalry.
The indefensible town on the Han continent is being defended beautifully be the Han. Shimazu have landed 12 cavalry next to that town so far, and the Han have killed them all. I hope the town survives since a rushed airport there will help a lot in around 15 turns time.

How many turns do you think are left in the game? 30 - 40 maybe? Hopefully less. This being the case then perhaps we can do without the UN. This means we can switch off research after flight, sell all the educational establishments and start an accelerated production programme.

Even if the Han start building th UN, I doubt they could finish it before we got to the city, and I doubt now whether they would win the vote anyway.

Unfortunately, cavalry against infantry is a slog, and I only expect to deal with around 6 more cities in my turns. Once we have tanks I will probably sacrifice many cav just to increase the speed of progress.

I'm rambling....

 

[mad-bax]

1430AD:
Founded Gormuchi near Nichinan to claim Ivory.
Bombard Nichinan down to pop12 and redline all garrison units.

I really want a leader for an infantry army so

Nichinan
Elite cav vs 1/3 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/3 inf dies
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins
vet cav vs 1/4 inf dies
vet cav vs 2/5 inf wins taking city, which we raze.

Hitoyoshi
Put a cav outside city so I can see the top unit in city.
Bombard the city pretty unsuccessfully.
Found Peanutozuki so I can get more arty in range.
Bombard again and this time reduce pop to 10 and red-line all units.
Can I get a leader this time?

Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins generating leader.
Build Infantry army to stack arty on.
Elite cav vs 1/4 inf wins taking city.

We keep this city until we get some more settlers.
I sell all improvements within it except rax, duct, market and hospital. Those buildings are just a drain on our income.

Deal with the unhappiness problems. Lux to 10% for two turns. Will hurry a harbour to get ivory on line nest turn.

No more attacks would be prudent at this time due to lack of arty.

A couple of infantry are outside Hikone 2. I decide to deal with them
Vet cav vs vet inf wins and promotes
vet cav vs vet inf retreats
vet cav vs 3/4 inf retreats
vet cav vs 3/4 inf retreats. Notice no auto promote when the attacking unit retreats
vet cav vs 3/4 inf retreats.
vet cav vs 2/4 inf wins.

IBT:
The Han destroy the Koreans.
Learn Mass Production, Research Motorised Transport in 10 turns
Battlefield medicine prompt. I think we will.
Port of entry prompt. What the hell is that? I'll look it up in the peadia.

1435AD:
Yatsushiro
Despite the large stack of infantry at my disposal the bombardment went poorly. I reduced the pop to 10, but the city is on a hill. This is going to be expensive. I am tempted not to do it, but how can we wait?

vet cav vs 2/4 inf dies (arty in city)
vet cav vs 2/4 inf dies
vet cav vs 3/5 inf retreats
vet cav vs 3/5 inf retreats
vet cav vs 2/4 inf dies
vet cav vs 2/4 inf wins (hurrah)
vet dav vs 2/5 inf dies
vet cav vs 1/4 inf wins
vet cav vs 1/5 inf dies
vet cav vs 1/5 inf wins
vet cav vs 1/5 inf wins taking city.

Again we must keep it.

Join 2 workers into Peanutozuki and hurry settler
Hurry harbour in Gormuchi
That does it for this turn. We need much more arty.

IBT:
Killed a couple of infantry for no loss.

1440AD:
Omura
Again, I put a cavalry next to city so I can see whats going on.
This city is on Grassland thank God.
Bombardment again was less than I hoped for.
Rather than lis every single battle I'll just give an overview from now on.

2 cav die taking city. We now have 2 more arty.
Again I keep the city.

The next target is Kunamoto. This contains Smiths and will be very heavily defended.
Must wait till next turn due to lack of arty. It's on a hill too
Both the Han and Shimazu are in communism BTW.
I have to lower science to allow settler rushing. This is a pain. Tanks would be so useful right now.

IBT:
Yatsushiro flips back for the loss of 4 infantry. I will have to retake it as I won't be able to get troops to the front without it. This means the assault on Kunamato will be delayed a turn.

1445AD:
Retake Yatsoshiro for the loss of one cav
Hurried a settler in Peanutozuki
Bombarded Kunamato. Reduced from pop 21 to 17 and got the Rax. Will try again next turn.

Thats about all I could do.

IBT:
Chosogabe declare war on the Mori.

1450AD:
Found Adrianoya.
OK, so Kunamoto
Bombardment OK ish. Down to size ten, most of garrison red-lined a couple are 2HP.

Lost 8 cavalry (2 elite) taking out 9 defenders. But at least we now have Smiths.

That's all folks.

Our Score is 4611.

Notes for the following player.
We are running a defecit to get to MT as soon as possible. From time to time it is worth turning down the slider to make a few gold pieces to rush a settler in Peanutozuki. There is a supply of workers in this city. Just join a couple and rush the settler after the first turn. Don't rush from an empty shield bin. (Grandmother sucking eggs, yeah I know.

Keep the arty stacked on the infantry army. The AI will not attack it.
You have the choice of attacking Saiki or Isahaya next turn. I would go for Saiki since it is a more productive town and it gives our new lands a better shape.

There is a settler on a stack of infantry near Obi. The settler needs to move 1 tile closer to Obi and drop a town. This is to get within arty range.

The Han just researched Combustion last turn, so we are ahead Mass production. Radio is a useless tech for us. Do not trade with the Han at all.

The Shimazu have 6 useful towns left. Take them all. Personally then I would take peace. I don't care about the MPP with the Han at this stage. In the peace negotiations you need to get Sasebo and Nagasaki. These are island cities, and taking them by force will hold us up.

Production is arty heavy at the moment. We need to build around half a dozen more infantry, but arty are our most powerful weapon at the moment.

We need half a dozen more transports. Once the Shimazu war is over we need to get our arty to the city we have on the Han continent, and then we need to send over our troops. We will have around 100 arty and 100 other troops at this time. We need to perform the operation in two trips.

I'll post the screen shot and save in the next post.
BTW: It was just so much fun.

 

[mad-bax]

Here is the battlefield

The save is >>here<<

 

[mad-bax]

Adrian is UP. Have fun

 

[Peanut]

Strewth mate ! Sounds like you had more fun than you can poke a stick at !

But ... Peanutozuki ??? I am honoured ... never had a town named after me before.

Isn't port of entry the Crackerised Civ1.29 equivalent of the PTW commercial dock ? We would only build them in high cash flow coastal towns.

 

[AdrianE]

Got it

The Port of entry adds 50% to the cash of a city. I'll build a few of those if there are good spots. That will help with the deficit.

Adrian

 

[AdrianE]

Brief report :

The core Shimazu cities belong to the Oda now. Our economy is much better. Tanks are rolling off the assembly lines. The navy is moving our army across the ocean. Score is 4976 in 1500AD.

Full report to be added later.

Edited to add detailed report:

Preturn: Man what a corrupt mess our empire is. The King is not amused. We hire over 100 taxmen in corrupt cities. Many productive cities are not optimized. We have 100's of workers that are doing nothing valuable (ie mining mountains in corrupt areas). At least 100 of these workers are native Odan workers and their maintenance cost is choking our economy.

I micromanage many cities, changing tile assignments from mines to irrigationand vice versa. I join workers to slow growing productive cities. This helps with cash flow as each joined worker adds at least 1$ while not costing maintenance. Thats a 2$ swing each.

All the above takes about 2.5 hours and results in boosting research by 10% so that Motorized Transportation is due in 6 turns not 7 . Instead of a 65$ per turn deficit its only about 30$ per turn. I deliberately choose not to build many more Cavalry as tanks will arrive soon. We have enough to deal with the Shimazu.

Over my turns, I continue to micromanage cities to optimize production. We have size 12 cities with factories generating +12 food because they are working irrigated grasslands. Almost all of our productive cities are in the 30S range. This is inefficient for building artillery, cavalry and tanks. When I'm done, Azuchi builds 107 shields (a tank a turn) and 2 other cities can build 80S+ (artillery a turn) and dozens are in the 50 to 60 range (a tank or infantry every second turn). Sometimes this takes building courthouses or police stations to cross the 50S point.

I also order more banks, stock exchanges and ports of entry. Given that we now have Smith's this will help our economy greatly. At the end of my turns we an run 70% research with a 165$ positive cash flow. Before it was 70% and a 65$ deficit.

In the preturn I wake up our army and kill a Shimazu infantry and get a leader. He is used to build an infantry army. I lose cav to kill another Shimazu infantry. I also do some strategic pillaging.

IBT
lose 2 pillaging Cav

1455AD - take and raze Saiki and Isahaya. Get another leader who forms a Cavalry army

1460AD - take and raze Obi using a combat settler

1465AD - take Kagoshima. I keep it as it has Universal Sufferage. Dispatch 2 destroyers and 2 transports to Nagasaki area.

IBT we lose Tottori. Chogosabe lands 6 Cav beside our undefended Korean beachhead.

1470AD - renegotiate peace with Chogosabe (I figure now we can break deals as we see fit). I dispatch a transport with a couple of infantry to hold that town. We take Usuki. Two conscript riflemen kill 4 of our elite Cavalry in this battle.

IBT - Kunamoto flips. We lose Smiths!

1475AD - retake Kunamoto. take Izumi and Nishi-ku

IBT - Han reduce the defenders of Kanoya to a wounded samurai archer

1480AD - take Kanoya, take and raze Hizen. Shimazu not willing to give up Sasebo, yet

IBT learn about tanks, decide planes would be cool too.

1485AD- bombard Nagasaki into rubble, load up troops near it
and start redeployment of army to Korea. Rush a destroyer near Ichinomiya do deal with horde of damn Shimazu frigates.

1490AD - land troops at Nagasaki. Shimazu will give up Sasebo but I don't take it.

IBT - Shimazu frigates commit suicide attaking our destroyer near Ichinomiya

1495AD - take Nagasaki, make peace with Shimazu for Sasebo. Rush a transport at Ichinomiya.

IBT Chosi riots! (Its a size 12 city without a market place! - I order one to fix that problem)

1500AD - redeployment, score 4976

I left a continental defense force of a handful of artillery/cavalry on each of the big 3 islands. I woke them up so that the next player knows where they are.

The Han settled a small island on our northern coast. It occurs to me that this might be a job for paratroopers. If not just rush a transport. I rushed a temple, barracks and harbour in our Korean beachhead city. We have some workers over there to work on combat railroads.

We are currently at peace with the Shimazu. That won't last long as they are still at war with the Han. We have a battleship, destroyer and a transport near their little 3 city island. Keep them there to eliminate them. We are building lots of tanks.

We need more tanks and infantry in Korea before taking on the Han. Once we get flight rush an airport in Korea and build many in our homeland. That will be the best way to ship reinforcements in. Also rush build airports on the other big islands.

I carpeted some Shimazu lands with captured workers to stop AI's from landing in unclaimed territory. Maybe we should do this elsewhere.

Enjoy!

>SAVE<

 

[Peanut]

Adrian - Excellent work on fixing the economy as well as running the war. You are more patient than I am, and I didn't realise what a good trade-off there was for the investment. This SG is full of new insights for me.

Speculating ... should we assemble a pillaging stack (infantry armies + infantry + artillery for defence and lots of expendable obsolete cavalry and /or suicide explorers), land it as close to Beijing as possible and then pillage to isolate Beijing ? Would that completely foul up the Han war machine, their economy and their war production, as well as burning up some Han Cavalry ?

 

[AdrianE]

We should look for the Han oil, rubber and saltpeter and take those out first. I haven't looked at their territory in detail so I don't know where they are.

The explorers would be a good option for pillaging.

Note we have a small window of tech superiority to the Han. We have tanks and they are still learning Mass Production. We have about 8 to 10 turns before the first Han tanks arrive. It will be about 5 turns before our army is fully tranferred to the Han continent.

The question is whether we strike now or wait until everything is prepositioned to disrupt the Han economy.

If we take out the Han oil this war will be over quickly as the Han can't build modern units. Maybe we should wait until we can hit the Han oil.

 

[Peanut]

Any sign of Gormdragan folks ? He said just before Christmas that that he was away "until next year", and he hasn't posted since then.