Meanwhile in Libya...

[Silurian]

The French have recognised the rebels who will follow

from Haaretz

France said on Thursday it recognized the rebel Libyan National Council as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people, an official at French President Nicolas Sarkozy's office said on Thursday.

The official said France would be sending an ambassador to Benghazi and receiving a Libyan envoy in Paris.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...3pDjBg&usg=AFQjCNGJSV4xC0VZ1FMDjSuK-73SWkD9GQ

 

[ZeletDude]

I saw that too! Very interesting And supposedly Portugal has recognized them as well, just no official announcement yet.

 

[r16]

ı have been humbled by Al-Jazeera by the revelation that they were laying siege to Al Jawad only with a single BM-21 on Wednesday . In my defence ı must say in Africa the Katyusha truck has been very famous ; Idi Amin's jet invasion of Tanzania was turned back by a single example too . Unfortunately this ain't Africa , where a single properly equipped infantry battalion is beyond the means of many a country ...

fully related to spin doctoring on satellite TV , the guy who goes around claiming he is the secretary general of NATO is posing the Alliance has no desire to get in . Many thanks to BBC that showed all the flags of NATO members in a well framed photo but omitted ours . Hmpfft , big deal ! Al Jazeera , considering its audience, had gone the simpler route of omitting the ones of US and UK , ours totally absent once again . In the preparation for a full size or half size operation . There is indeed only one Libya , dividing into sections is not cool with fools ; Bingazi is Redskin country as much as Trablus . But it won't mean anything , because the evil tyranny has gone out to stomp freedom , life , whatever and the ground situation is so bad that it is imperative that there should be an action . Just like Kosova . You ought to know , there are people here still wondering where are the mass graves of those 250 000 Albanians killed by the Serbs in 1999 . An imperative to act . Is it ? Hence this is the big day , the optimism of Wednesday has "disappeared" : while it was a nice show with those "unexpectedly competent" Tricolors firing rockets into billowing smoke clouds of burning diesel storage [fighting the darkness, oh the killing power of symbolisms ] , yesterday it was first "Ras Lanuf had fallen" then by night "no it had not" , never minding they must have been forced back from the environs of Bin Jawad by huge forces nearly a week ago , Bingazi apprehensive . Tricolors would be rather better off to start digging trenches at Al Alamein - with their sparkling advisors . There is nothin' goin' on , move on , ugly words indeed nevertheless business as usual ... Not only West wants a no-fly zone in which their jets must not be fired upon but they also want immunity for helicopters so that they can keep an eye on desert dwelling camel riding bandits . Peculiar suggestions are every single Allied pilot is entitled to become an ace . Chopper folk included . Even those flying Predators , since one had fired on a Foxbat back in the day . 'Nuff food on the table for everyone . Only to be followed by even weirder ideas that no occupied country will be allowed oil exports . There are lines of work that one does not survive long with underestimating people . Nobody underestimates the Libyans on either side , let's see how long they will fight for freedom . Nor the exact value of freedom for the West . We have quad 14.5s and the savages don't would make a nice sig someday .

 

[Tani Coyote]

France seems to have the most bold, interventionist leader in the free world.

Will they beat the US to actually funding the rebels? It looks like it.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Egypt, Tunisia and Libya had as common trait that their dictatorship stability was held by a leading partner:

In Tunisia, Ben Ali's leading partner was France, which didn't expect him to fall so fast. Once out, France decided to refuse asylum to him (as opposed to what was done in the past for men like Baby Doc or Bokassa).

In Egypt, Mubarak's leading partner was the US, which clearly dropped him under the voice of Obama. Mubarak's fall has been accelerated by Obama's action.

In Libya, Gaddafi's leading partner is Italy. And Italy has clearly done everything it could to SUPPORT him. Italy invited all European governments to warn them about the massive wave of immigration which could follow the fall of Gaddafi. Italy warns Europe about how the oil crisis and the potential rise of Al Qaeda threatens European security. And now, Italy yells against France saying that a support to the rebels is rejected by the EU.

45% of Libyan international trade is done with Italy. Libya has massive financial interests in Italy, participating to the capital of many big Italian corporations. Berlusconi actively helped Gaddafi's son to play in the serie A football team of Peruggia. Gaddafi had as a habit to visit Berlusconi every 2 months. Several sources also claim that Gaddafi participated several times to Belusconi's famous "Bunga bunga" party, and that he's even the one who inspired Berlusconi about the idea.


If Gaddafi falls, there are strong chances that he will bring Mr Berlusconi with him.

 

[J-man]

The three captured Dutch soldiers where released. I feared that they would be held captive for months. Thank god that didn't happen.

 

[innonimatu]

In Libya, Gaddafi's leading partner is Italy. And Italy has clearly done everything it could to SUPPORT him. Italy invited all European governments to warn them about the massive wave of immigration which could follow the fall of Gaddafi. Italy warns Europe about how the oil crisis and the potential rise of Al Qaeda threatens European security. And now, Italy yells against France saying that a support to the rebels is rejected by the EU.

It's not just Italy, the french dwarf is isolated within the EU and probably even within the french state apparatus. Support to the rebels was rejected. There's a lot of posturing but it seems to me to be meant for internal consumption only, for politicians to not "look bad" by not attacking (verbally!) Qaddafi, especially in Britain.

Sarkozy is betting on the wrong horse and others can see it. There is no easy change of government in Libya to be had. And this earthquake in Japan just gained the libyan government some two more days without media pressure. The rebels could potentially be of use, but they failed and will now be abandoned. Even the media discourse has shifted against them: news reports refer to them as "rebels", not as "freedom fighters" or "protesters". Certainly not as "the government of Libya", regardless of what the french dwarf states to the press. It's now officially a "civil war" and will not be meddled with.
I for one was getting tired of the bad media circus with incompetent rebels, invisible government planes and troops, on a background of foreign immigrant workers who were fleeing, not the government of Libya, but rather the rebels after random attacks against immigrants! Civil wars are nasty business. Qaddafi's (and his family's) obsession with power are one of the causes, but not the only one and not one which can easily be "fixed" - the guy is far too hard to assassinate.

 

[Marla_Singer]

It's not France which is a dwarf, it's the whole of Europe.
And the reason why Europe is a dwarf is because it wants to be so.


Europeans have no ethic, no moral. They are just hopeless soul slowly aging and waiting for death, with no purpose.

 

[emzie]

Well Gaddafi has to be liking the world's attention shifting elsewhere. I hope that this doesn't get completely shelved and left to an army rout of the rebels.

 

[Thedrin]

I'm betting it will be ignored. Darfur was finally getting the attention it deserved in the couple of months leading up to the the 2004 tsunami and then nothing for over a year.

 

[innonimatu]

It's not France which is a dwarf, it's the whole of Europe.
And the reason why Europe is a dwarf is because it wants to be so.


Europeans have no ethic, no moral. They are just hopeless soul slowly aging and waiting for death, with no purpose.

Just to be clear, I was referring to Sarkozy, whom I detest. And France has a history of looking for its interests first and foremost. I'm really, really, skeptical of any government of one country claiming to want to help another country.

Should europeans intervene in Libya? I'd be more willing to support it if past interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo hadn't resulted in protectorates which still exist, instead of independent countries. Foreign intervention tends to lead to foreign occupation with no end in sight, judging from recent history. And recent european occupation of North Africa ended in war and defeat, as the french should well know.

If the purpose is to build an empire and rule other lands. say so, you may get a surprising support, now that the generation defeated in colonial wars is passing away. If the purpose is to liberate anyone, you're going it the wrong way.

 

[Thedrin]

CNN have reported that the Arab League will back a no-fly-zone over Libya.

 

[Miles Teg]

I'm hesitant to give in to the instinct to "do something" in countries with internal problems, especially if that something is unilateral action, but based on the support of the Arab League, I think it's safe to say that it's time to intervene.

 

[Thedrin]

While I can see the benefit of intervention, the problems that arose after intervention in the Balkans are a serious drawback and I would lean towards no intervention.

The state is the body that holds a monopoly on legal force within a country (or some such). I'm having trouble right now building up a completely logical argument, but I have a strong suspicion that if the rebels need to use foreign military support to overthrow Gadaffi (even if it's only in a defensive role like a no-fly-zone) then there is no group within the rebels strong enough to assert its authority after Gadaffi falls and a civil war would continue after the initial revolution.

 

[amadeus]

I'm hesitant to give in to the instinct to "do something" in countries with internal problems, especially if that something is unilateral action, but based on the support of the Arab League, I think it's safe to say that it's time to intervene.

Ultimately, we should get the consent of the anti-Gadhafi rebels. If that were to occur, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to the U.S. intervening in a supporting role where necessary.

 

[Marla_Singer]

While I can see the benefit of intervention, the problems that arose after intervention in the Balkans are a serious drawback and I would lean towards no intervention.

Sarajevo is at something like 500km from Vienna? What were the benefits to wait during 3 long years before finally intervening? Tell me exactly what "better" situation could have resulted from non-intervention? 3 more years of war to reach the same point?

The state is the body that holds a monopoly on legal force within a country (or some such). I'm having trouble right now building up a completely logical argument, but I have a strong suspicion that if the rebels need to use foreign military support to overthrow Gadaffi (even if it's only in a defensive role like a no-fly-zone) then there is no group within the rebels strong enough to assert its authority after Gadaffi falls and a civil war would continue after the initial revolution.

In reading those lines, I just want to throw up.

The future of the world is at stake. It's not simply about few rebels and a mad dictator, it's about the relationship between the Arab World and Europe during the 21st century.

Gaddafi is a guy who invaded Chad, who funded multiple terrorists including Carlos and Abu Nidal, who directly organised the bombings of several civil aircrafts, who ordered Libyans to shoot on a crowd demonstrating in the streets of London. Gadaffi ordered air raids over his own people, and he pays mercenaries $10,000 by rebel shot.

If Gaddafi wins this war, not a single rebel will survive. He will shoot them all.

This is not Iraq, this is not Kosovo. This is about a single country that no one wants to divide which is ruled by a mad guy that everyone wants out. The rebels themselves ask for a UN intervention.

There is just no neutral way in here. No intervention is a direct support to Gaddafi. Establishing a no-fly zone is a direct support of the rebels. CHOOSE YOUR SIDE.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Ultimately, we should get the consent of the anti-Gadhafi rebels. If that were to occur, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to the U.S. intervening in a supporting role where necessary.

They already asked so! They asked for the UN to establish a no-fly zone over Libya. That's actually the reason why the French and British governments decided to behave this way.

 

[innonimatu]

Gadaffi ordered air raids over his own people, and he pays mercenaries $10,000 by rebel shot.

If Gaddafi wins this war, not a single rebel will survive. He will shoot them all.

I would really help the interventionist crowd if they could supply good proof of this.

This is not Iraq, this is not Kosovo. This is about a single country that no one wants to divide which is ruled by a mad guy that everyone wants out. The rebels themselves ask for a UN intervention.

There is just no neutral way in here. No intervention is a direct support to Gaddafi. Establishing a no-fly zone is a direct support of the rebels. CHOOSE YOUR SIDE.

If everyone wants him out, how come he's still in power? Clearly someone is fighting for him? Are those all "mercenaries"? Some will be, others not. The point is, a no-fly zone will not overthrow the current government of Libya. What it will do is commit all participants in its enforcement to commit, later, further resources (weapons and possibly troops) to do to bring that about, because it will be interpreted (given Qaddafi's track record) as a declaration of war, and he has a habit of trying to get even.

So, let's be frank: intervention means really intervening, not just doing something apparently risk-free such as that no-fly area. There is a case to argue for it in the UN if just about every government, including Libya's neighbors, wish to join. But do so honestly, admitting that it will most likely take an intervention on the ground, with the costs associated.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Gaddafi has been under-estimated by everyone during 41 years. Surprizingly, the only one who got Gaddafi right was Ronald Reagan, when he ordered the destruction of his palace. There's only one solution for Libya's relief: the death of Gadaffi.

 

[emzie]

CNN have reported that the Arab League will back a no-fly-zone over Libya.

Only "no" votes came from Syria and Algeria -- which I assume means yes votes from Egypt and Tunisia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12723554

For starters, much of Russia / China's objection to a no-fly zone were questions about regional support. I think that undercuts their argument there.

Secondly, they'll need to do more than just endorse an action. I expect Tunisia and Egypt to allow their airbases used for this, if they won't / can't participate in flights themselves.