Meanwhile in Libya...

[chad187]

Why should we intervene here and not in the Ivory Coast where protesters are being shot aswell?

 

[Thedrin]

Sarajevo is at something like 500km from Vienna? What were the benefits to wait during 3 long years before finally intervening? Tell me exactly what "better" situation could have resulted from non-intervention? 3 more years of war to reach the same point?

"Lean towards"

I certainly sympathise with the notion of intervention, and even a few days ago I was in favour of it, but the point raised about perpetual outside administration is a good one.

The future of the world is at stake. It's not simply about few rebels and a mad dictator, it's about the relationship between the Arab World and Europe during the 21st century.

Gaddafi is a guy who invaded Chad, who funded multiple terrorists including Carlos and Abu Nidal, who directly organised the bombings of several civil aircrafts, who ordered Libyans to shoot on a crowd demonstrating in the streets of London. Gadaffi ordered air raids over his own people, and he pays mercenaries $10,000 by rebel shot.

If Gaddafi wins this war, not a single rebel will survive. He will shoot them all.

This is not Iraq, this is not Kosovo. This is about a single country that no one wants to divide which is ruled by a mad guy that everyone wants out. The rebels themselves ask for a UN intervention.

There is just no neutral way in here. No intervention is a direct support to Gaddafi. Establishing a no-fly zone is a direct support of the rebels. CHOOSE YOUR SIDE.

Actually, I came into this thread knowing who Gadaffi is and what he is capable of. This did inform my previous statement, as unpleasant as I may find some of the consequences.

In terms of the wider world and relations between Europe and the Arab world, I'd say that in the short term intervention is probably a good thing. In this situation (or when Saddam was putting down rebels in the 90s), intervention would be viewed positively by the rest of the Arab world. A strong argument in favour of intervention. But if intervention results in a long running administration of the region, then that good will will quickly evaporate as the "occupation" continues.

If a civil war continues after Gadaffi is ousted, then should the intervention continue until one side achieves dominance? Or should it continue even beyond that if that winning side enacts its own brutal reprisals?

If I thought that the civil war would definitely end with the fall of Gadaffi and his comrades, I'd agree with intervention. But in the absence of that certainty, I am uncertain of the best course and currently am slightly more in favour of no intervention.

Finally, isn't Libya firmly divided along tribal lines, with Gadaffi being the strong man keeping everything together( along the lines of Tito in Yugoslavia)? Why are you so certain that no one wants to split the country?

 

[EnglishEdward]

If President Barack Obama lets Gadaffi crush the rebels (like George Bush senior
let Saddam crush the South Iraqi rebels) he will likely be a one term President (too).

All it takes is one well aimed cruise missile!

Is he waiting for the clock to strike 19:17 or 19:41

And if the fall of Gadaffi helps the exit of Berlesconi,
then that is two birds for the pot with one thrifty shot.

 

[Tee Kay]

Finally, isn't Libya firmly divided along tribal lines, with Gadaffi being the strong man keeping everything together( along the lines of Tito in Yugoslavia)?

In Yugoslavia the conflict was more nationalist rather than clan-based. Libya may be more comparable to Somalia. However, the rebellion is taking the form of a populist, nationalist rebellion, not a tribal insurrection.

IMHO, the longer Gaddafi takes to fall (assuming he falls), the more likely Libya will become unstable and the more likely civil war will continue. Any lengthened period of civil strife is not good for any country. If the outside world intervenes at all, they should do so sooner rather than later.

 

[Thedrin]

I'm changed my mind about intervention.

People are dying now as a result of the actions of an unpopular ruler and an intervention can help prevent this. There will be negative repercussions of an intervention but going in (with a no-fly-zone) and baring the brunt of these drawbacks is the right thing to do.

 

[aukrest]

The Arab League has given the go-ahead for a no-fly zone. So why the hell are we waiting around? Intervention is necessary unless we want a madman who slaughters his own people stay in power to do it again.

And anyone who thinks Gaddafi would help Libya needs to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvOo5LK22sg

Also see the quote in my sig.

 

[Thedrin]

And anyone who thinks Gaddafi would help Libya needs to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvOo5LK22sg

Also see the quote in my sig.

Unfortunately, I don't think Berlusconi posts here.

 

[Frozen In Ice]

I thought that after Obama told Gaddafi to leave that he had pretty much committed to getting him out, but still there is nothing. Initially it appeared he might be defeated without any foreign action, but now Gaddafi clearly will stay in power if nothing is done. If Gaddafi keeps control of Lybia then he will certainly not be too happy with the US.

 

[Marla_Singer]

In the end, it seems major leaders are doing a role-playing game... which is convenient to everyone.

France is the perfect country to lead talks for a foreign intervention:
- France didn't participate to the Iraq adventure.
- France has a consistent diplomatic network all over the Arab world.
- France has the military capability to do so, especially if it gets the help of Britain.

And guess what? Britain is ready to give such a help. Cameron would have never agreed to follow Sarkozy without the consent of Obama. Due to its specific History, Merkel could never convince its public opinion that a German intervention is legitimate. Conveniently, the Arab League decided to back the decision, which was exactly what was needed for China and Russia to remove their main argument to vote against a UN resolution.

All this has been slowly elaborated by all the major diplomacies together, and that's exactly why it takes so much time to organize things. Obviously the international community is aware about what's at stakes, they firstly hoped Gaddafi to fall by himself, but as obviously that doesn't happen, they're elaborating a plan B.

 

[innonimatu]

What is this "international community" people keep talking about?

Anyway, I hardly see how Obama can be eager to invade Libya in support of anti-government rebels while at the same time his secretary of defense is trying to find a politically acceptable way to help the government of Bahrain suppress its own rebels. Who today seem to have put the riot police of the regime there on the run...

 

[Marla_Singer]

Gaddafi back in power in Libya is in the interrests of no one.

What do you imagine? That after a little massacre, we could just invite the guide back in Washington to sign a juicy oil deal?

What matters for the Western world is the stability of the region. And the region will be more stable with Gaddafi out than with Gaddafi in. Helping Gaddafi to gain back power in Libya is about as good for the region stability than letting Hitler grab Bohemia-Moravia.

Obama told several weeks ago now that the US weren't in the best position to accelerate the fall of Gaddafi, he then told France and Italy were. Italy holds 45% of Libya's international trade, nearly half of it. Italy alone. This is more than thrice more than Libya's second trade partner, Germany with 12%. Italy just cannot, and I don't even mention here that Italy did participate to the expedition in Iraq. France can.

Everybody hates Sarkozy. That doesn't mean that helping to oust Gaddafi is bad for the world. Even the Arab League agrees to that... The Arab League. How do you believe Obama bought Bahrain's vote to intervene in Libya?

Welcome in the world of International relations.

 

[r16]

with his proven dumb blind luck this poster confidently expects , within this decade , to be accused of bombing Fukushima . Elsewhere , the word stability is much misused . The issue is not toppling of a tyrant but rearrangement of political structures and the experience leads to a steady distrust of the process . The fighting in Libya has destroyed "steady" soft hand achievements . Kaddafi the Son would have given all the reforms that the rebels would deign give to Libya and more . And for those who think the no fly zone in the Balkans is a good starting point must see the efforts were irrelevant as an American steady posture in the initial clashes would have helped Serbians , those one must respect as men , in contrast to those exemplified by Milosevic and Karadzic , to slow down the fighting , maybe avoiding the war in Bosnia altogether . The Americans and the EU alternated in abetting the Serbian mischief and of course it all ended as "planned" and "agreed" , the Bosnia is partioned between the Serbs and the Croats ( who are quite effective in Sarajevo) right? When media starts talking about saving people , one must prepare for burying a few . More than a few .

 

[Marla_Singer]

Bosnia isn't partitioned between the Serbs and the Croats but between Serbs in one side and Muslims and Croats in the other. There are linguistic, religious and even ethnical divides in the area which simply don't exist in Libya. If the country is divided in two nowadays, it's not because NATO intervened, but because the populations wanted it to be so. Now if you had a better compromise in mind, I would be interested to hear it.

As for the idea Saif al-Islam Gaddafi would have brought democracy to the country if the naughty rebels haven't demonstrated, current events prove how much it is a joke. You've lost all credit talking about a topic you obviously don't master in saying so.

 

[Tee Kay]

Benghazi Falls To Gaddafi Forces

... not yet, but it will soon.​

Link

As Muammar Gaddafi's forces ratchet up their military offensive against the rebels, shells have fallen six kilometres west of the key Libyan town of Ajdabiya, which the rebels have vowed to defend against government forces.

Journalists for AFP news agency saw two craters of some four metres across and five metres apart near a road junction, after Monday's shelling.

Rebels said there had been no casualties, but the attack on Ajdabiya is seen, from the rebels' viewpoint, "as the last line of defence," said Al Jazeera's Tony Birtley, reporting from Benghazi.

As a sandstorm blew over the area, dozens of civilians were evacuating the town, heading east for the rebel capital of Benghazi aboard light trucks loaded with suitcases, bags and mattresses.

'Final phase'

General Abdel Fatah Yunis, rebel commander, who resigned as Gaddafi's interior minister, soon after the uprising began in mid-February, said in Benghazi, on Sunday, that Ajdabiya, little over 100 kilometres to the west, was "a vital city".

"It's on the route to the east, to Benghazi and to Tobruk and also to the south. Ajdabiya's defence is very important... We will defend it," he told reporters.

From Ajdabiya one road runs north along the coast to Benghazi, Libya's second city, with a population of one million, which the rebels have made their capital.

Another road goes straight across the desert eastward to the oil port of Tobruk, which to date has given rebels full control up to the Egyptian border.

Al Jazeera's Birley said "Gaddafi forces are advancing and It seems that fighting is carrying on and coming close to Benghazi.

"It seems like we are entering the final phase of the conflict but whether this revolution will fail or succeed, that will only be determined in the coming weeks."

According to earlier reports, rebels recaptured the oil town of Brega killing 25 government soldiers and capturing 20 more.

Meanwhile, the Reuters news agency reports that France was stepping up efforts on Monday to persuade world powers to impose a no-fly zone over Libya.

France said it would consult other powers "in the coming hours" to try to set up such a zone to assure the protection of civilians "in the face of the terrible violence suffered by the Libyan population".

The Arab League's weekend call on the United Nations to impose such a zone satisfies one of three conditions set by NATO for it to police Libyan air space.

The others were proof that its help was needed, and a UN Security Council resolution.

International delay

However, analysts say that by the time the international community agrees on a response to Gaddafi's onslaught against a popular revolt, it could all be over.

"The international community is dragging its feet," Saad Djebbar, a London lawyer and expert on Libyan affairs, told the Reuters news agency.

"The diplomatic pace is very slow. There is an urgency to act quickly before those people are finished off by Gaddafi's forces."

"The international community has to act now - not only to protect Benghazi from an onslaught but because of what it means for the rest of the world if Gaddafi is allowed to remain the leader of Libya," said Geoff Porter, a US-based political risk consultant who specialises in North Africa.

Speaking to Al Jazeera, Tarik Yousef, a senior research fellow at the Dubai school of government said that, "What has been missing is a strong sense of what the US wants to do.

"They need to sort through a lot of ideas they have about a post-Gaddafi Libya, but the time that they are taking, I am afraid it will come at a great cost to Libyan civilians."

'Arm the rebels'

Britain has also been pushing for the imposition of a no-fly zone to shield Libyans from Gaddafi's air power.

William Hague, British foreign secretary said that international powers should consider the option of arming Libyan rebels and take swift action to prevent Gaddafi forces from crushing a popular rebellion.

Hague said it would be a nightmare for Libya's people if Gaddafi managed to hold on to power.

"If Gaddafi went on to be able to dominate much of the country, well this would be a long nightmare for the Libyan people and this would be a pariah state for some time to come,"Hague told BBC Radio.

Of the UN's veto-yielding members, China has been against the imposition of a no-fly zone, while Russia has appeared reluctant and the United States, Germany and Italy have taken a cautious line on intervention.

However, Dmitry Medvedev, Russian president has banned Gaddafi and 15 members of his family and immediate circle from Russia and from carrying out financial transactions in the country , the Interfax news agency reported.

Besides the ruling family, the financial restrictions also apply to the head of Libya's military intelligence service, who is Gaddafi's brother-in-law, Interfax said.

I don't think the no-fly-zone or any international intervention is going to happen. I don't think any of the leaders actually want to intervene at all and are only "pushing" the no-fly-zone just for show. The rebels are simply vastly outgunned. It's all over for them.

After Libya fails the other protests in other countries will cease. In Tunisia and Egypt after a few months of "Spring" they will either return to Business-as-Usual: powerful autocratic elite, corruption, suppression of free speech, or violent jihadists will seize power, thus automatically discrediting any future "populist" revolution in the Middle East as dangerous and destined to fail in the eyes of the rest of the world.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Benghazi Falls To Gaddafi Forces

finally!

 

[Incodcito]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

- Edmund Burke
----------------------------------------

Libya is emblematic of the core failure of the UN, namely, to protect the universal rights of man in any meaningful manner. The only hope for the Libyan rebels lies in the intervention of a military of a nation that will martyr some global goodwill in the schizophrenic global zeitgeist.

 

[onedreamer]

I'm curious to see how will they remove Gheddafi from power (because they will, or at least try to) once he'll quell the rebellion.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Not so fast guys!

Brega Retaken, according to rebels

Rebel forces in Libya say they have retaken the eastern oil town of Brega, capturing a number of elite government troops and killing others.

The statement has not been independently confirmed.

It came hours after the rebels had themselves been driven from the town by air and ground attacks by forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi.

Elsewhere, the rebel-held town of Ajdabiya is reported to have come under heavy aerial bombardment.

On the diplomatic front, France is stepping up its efforts to persuade the United Nations Security Council to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, a proposal backed by the UK and the Arab League.

The rebel military commander based in Libya's second city, Benghazi, has also appealed for a no-fly zone, saying his fighters have no answer to Col Gaddafi's air power, says the BBC's Jon Leyne from the rebel stronghold.

The British Foreign Secretary, William Hague, has said Libya risks becoming a "pariah state" if Col Gaddafi holds on to power.

"If Gaddafi went on to be able to dominate much of the country, well this would be a long nightmare for the Libyan people, and this would be a pariah state," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Mr Hague will attend a meeting of G8 foreign ministers in Paris later in the day to examine options for Libya as rebel efforts to end Col Gaddafi's four-decade rule appear to falter.

Rebel stronghold

With fighting continuing in the east of Libya, it is not clear exactly where the front line is. Brega changed hands several times over the weekend, amid a relentless barrage of air and ground attacks by government forces.

Continue reading the main story
Libya in maps
Diplomatic options
Is a no-fly zone possible?
Then reports came through on Sunday evening that a special forces unit loyal to the rebels had retaken part of the key oil city, but it is not clear whether they can hold on to it.

Pro-Gaddafi forces also launched air strikes on the rebel-held town of Ajdabiya after sweeping east, rebels said.

Ajdabiya is the only sizeable town between the front line around Brega and the rebel stronghold of Benghazi.

International diplomatic pressure is growing for a no-fly zone over Libya, after the Arab League agreed to ask the UN Security Council to enforce such a zone on Saturday.

The policy would be aimed at preventing Col Gaddafi's forces using warplanes to attack rebel positions, although no clear position has emerged on exactly how this would be achieved.

Nato has previously cited regional and international support for the idea as a key condition before it could possibly go ahead.

Russia and China, which wield vetos on the UN Security Council, have expressed serious reservations on the issue. But on Monday, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he wanted more information on the Arab League proposal.

Turkey, the only Muslim member of Nato, has strongly opposed the idea.

"We have seen from other examples that foreign interventions, especially military interventions, only deepen the problem," Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in Istanbul.

"Therefore we see a Nato military intervention in another country as extremely unbeneficial and, moreover, are concerned that it could create dangerous results," said Mr Erdogan.

On Sunday, Human Rights Watch said Libyan authorities had carried out a wave of "arbitrary arrests and forced disappearances" in the capital, Tripoli.

The group said that Libyan security forces had arrested scores of protesters and suspected government critics in Tripoli, adding that some of them had been tortured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12731079

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Not so fast guys!

Brega Retaken, according to rebels

LIES! Gaddafi will be victorious

 

[Incodcito]

Not so fast guys!

Brega Retaken, according to rebels



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12731079

Even the good guys lie. Lets wait for independent confirmation.