Mediterranean Adventure

[beetle]

Let me put it differently: I almost always play with a religion of my own, but we might have to accept not getting one on this map.

I think the map is considered Standard sized for calculating total # of religions and per-city penalties, so with 14 AIs the chances to get a religion are very low.

If we catch a faith-oriented pantheon (Goddess of Festivals, I assume) but miss founding, the early Shrine should still be enough to let us buy faith buildings early. Those early faith buildings snow-ball, so that is enough for 2-3 more GP in the game as compared to not having a pantheon. On the other hand, by going Liberty, presumably the only GP we will have eligible for faith purchase is GS.

What turns will a CB/Ballista/Legion attack come on Venice?

I too would like some help estimating the timing for this! At a minimum, I think we need four Ballista’s and three Legions. I don’t expect that we can expect any of them to have any promotions of particular note when the siege starts.

 

[beetle]

@vadalaz I feel like I am missing something with the EE set. How would I create my own Single player game? I find how to load the map, but nothing like an option for “use map settings”. I would expect to need a .modinfo file in addition to the .Civ5Map file.

 

[vadalaz]

@beetle There's a short tutorial here.

But if you don't need preset resources and TSL civs, I think you can just select the map in advanced setup?

I'm still unclear on "white peace". I thought it meant simply peace with nothing traded. But are you all saying that if the AI offers us something, or demands something, we can't alter the deal to make it "white peace"? We must reject it and stay at war?

I think this is what we ended up with:

- No peace deal modifying; either accept or reject the AI's offer
- No GPT from AIs, which includes peace deals, so those offers are an auto-reject
- Receiving/giving up cities, luxuries and strategics in peace deals = OK
- White peace = OK if that's what the AI offers

What turns will a CB/Ballista/Legion attack come on Venice? I'm thinking about turn order and I don't want to have to start that.

Hard to give an exact number, but anything from T50 to T100 should work. I think we should send Enrico an early caravan and attack him after the trade route ends.

I suggest we keep the turn order we had in the Earth game and slide it down one position, so we get this:

1. beetle
2. raider980
3. Nizef
4. vadalaz

If anyone wants to skip their turns or swap turns with someone that's fine of course. 10 turns per session worked well last time, let's stick to that.

If all of this is acceptable to you guys, I think we're ready to start. I've attached the save file.

 

[raider980]

All sounds good to me. I haven’t looked at the map in the spoiler in the EE thread so it’ll be fun to explore. I recently played the GotM with a Mediterranean map but that one was much bigger than this but Italy was rather small. Hopefully there’s enough room in Italy for a couple of cities on this one.

 

[beetle]

@beetleThere's a short tutorial here.

Thanks, that was explanation I needed!

But if you don't need preset resources and TSL civs, I think you can just select the map in advanced setup?

Yes, and I had that worked out, but it is the TSL that interests me.

I think we should send Enrico an early caravan and attack him after the trade route ends.

I like that! EDIT to mention, that I presume this will be our second (and last) war with Venice. I should think we can expect Enrico to gift us at least a couple of Workers.

I suggest we keep the turn order we had in the Earth game and slide it down one position, so we get this…

1. I don’t think me and @raider980 should play back-to-back again.
2. Trying for religion is a T0 choice. Do you really want me going first?

EDIT: Took my turn. I do not care who goes second.

The Glorious Empire of Rome is Founded on fertile land. Our intrepid hero follows the river north, to see what fools might challenge our rightful heritage. A scoundrel clan is soon spotted, but we will bid our time before pressing his citizens into our service.

Lo! A remarkable sight to our south! Scouts were looking for promising territory and found a wonderous mountain. All that born in Rome must make pilgrimage. Ascend the heights! Breath deep the thin but efflorescent air! Henceforth, all hills are nothing! We shall be One With Nature!

Spoiler :

Narrative above, conventional list here…

• T000 SIP, Warrior going N looking for loose worker.
• T003 Meet Enrico, and his cursed MoV
• T004 Venice Worker is exposed, but it would be death.
• T005 Enrico has three Warriors, need to wait for Worker or MoV to be in second ring. Cattle tile looks promising. Scout is out, exploring S for first expo.
• T006 Kilimanjaro! Was not expecting that! Warrior abandons stalking position to go get the buff.
• T009 Pottery researched. Start researching AH.
• T010 2nd Scout out, start building Shrine.

I did not spot any ruins. Seems a bit odd!

 

[raider980]

I don’t think me and @raider980 should play back-to-back again.

Whatcu trying to say?

Lol, I was actually thinking the same thing. Nizef or vadalaz one of you want to go next?

 

[Nizef]

I think this order worked well last time around and see no reason to alter it. If we want to maximize our advantage, @vadalaz should probably play every turn. But that is not what this game is about.

I hope for early Sailing and Optics because we have so many sea resources and it would make it possible to colonize the nearby islands. A Trireme will also be a very efficient scout on this map. What do you guys think?

 

[vadalaz]

I think this order worked well last time around and see no reason to alter it.

I agree

I hope for early Sailing and Optics because we have so many sea resources and it would make it possible to colonize the nearby islands. A Trireme will also be a very efficient scout on this map.

Yeah, Optics is huge here. We'll also need early Calendar, which is another detour from Iron Working and Mathematics/Construction. So it'll be a while before we can take Venice, and perhaps we can even get a DoF with Enrico and have it run the full 50 turns before we attack him. Caravan isn't an immediate priority then, I think a quick settler for Vesuvius-Kilimanjaro would be good here.

 

[beetle]

Last game I often felt bad for @raider980 having to clean up from my weak play, especially since @vadalaz was always setting me up so nicely!

Collective Rule before Citizenship? I presume so, since I think we will have Venetian workers soon enough. But the CR Settler should be fast enough to settle Kilimanjaro in time to catch a religion. I am of the opinion that the opportunity cost of a Settler before CR is too high on this map.

Are we trying for Pyramids?

How many cities do we want before DOWing Venice? Map is kind of tight, there might only be one good spot south of us.

 

[Nizef]

Here are my thoughts:
1. Let´s steal workers from Monaco (I assume that is the CS nearby) instead and sell our embassy asap to Venice for an early TR from them. We could even recruit our own Worker for early improvement possibilities.
2. Collective rule before Citizenship.
3. No Pyramids. I don´t think we have time for it in our BO.
4. Expands: 1-2 to the S, 1 to the N and 2-3 on the islands.

 

[raider980]

Last game I often felt bad for @raider980 having to clean up from my weak play, especially since @vadalaz was always setting me up so nicely!

Ha, don't worry about that, I thought I was set up nicely.

I'll play my turn at lunch so if there are any more suggestions y'all let me know before then.

 

[raider980]

1. Let´s steal workers from Monaco (I assume that is the CS nearby) instead and sell our embassy asap to Venice for an early TR from them. We could even recruit our own Worker for early improvement possibilities.

one of the rules we made was that we can’t steal workers from CS. So I think that means we need to steal them from Venice. Or are you all saying above not to war with Venice and try to get DoF early?

edit. Also no one sided embassy deals.

 

[raider980]

I had to go into the office so won't be able to play until later. But that may be good because I have a question.

How important is getting a DoF from Venice vs. killing their MoV and/or stealing a worker. I'm not sure how soon he usually uses the MoV but we don't want him getting a CS I assume, we want to kill him off totally right?

 

[vadalaz]

The way I see it, a DoF is optional but an early worker would help a ton. We might still be able to get a DoF after stealing a worker or two.

Allowing Enrico to expand gives us more options later on: eliminate Venice by capturing both cities, or take their expo in a peace deal first, or take the capital only and avoid the diplo hit for eliminating a civ (and maybe let Alex eliminate them for us).

 

[Nizef]

Sorry about that. I did not concentrate properly on our additional rules. In my experience, it is usually better to let Enrico use his MoV. It will be closer to t100 before we can take Venice and by then he will have met many AIs. Enrico is by the way perhaps the most difficult AI to steal workers from, since all units will be camping around 1 city instead of the usual 2 cities.

 

[raider980]

I think this order worked well last time around and see no reason to alter it. If we want to maximize our advantage, @vadalaz should probably play every turn. But that is not what this game is about.

I hope for early Sailing and Optics because we have so many sea resources and it would make it possible to colonize the nearby islands. A Trireme will also be a very efficient scout on this map. What do you guys think?

What should be the next tech after the one we're researcing is done? I'm assuming we don't need Sailing this early so Archery?

 

[Nizef]

Good question. Personally I would go Sailing but it is your call. The four basic techs are of course all kind of important though. The way I see it, Optics is more powerful the earlier it you reach it.

 

[beetle]

Archery will be less of a priority than usual, assuming we are trying to make the UUs work. Rome also is tricky if you are trying to squeeze the most hammers from the UA. Buildings have to be earlier than is really comfortable.

 

[raider980]

Why do we look so sad? (Caesar's portrait). Woah, Venice is closer than I thought. A fairly short set of turns. Lots of moving.

T11 3560BC. Warrior picks up Altitude Training.
T12 3520BC. 2nd Scout picks up AT.
T13 3480BC. Rome has grown. Troops move north.
Interim. Enrico offers 1 gpt for an embassy. I reject him.
T14 3440BC. Moving north.
T15 3400BC. Moving north.
T16 3660BC. Animal Husbandry discovered. Archery in 7 turns. Sailing in 11 turns. Yea, Sailing is a better deal.
T17 3320BC. An unknown civilization has started worshiping the Goddess of Protection, at least Venice doesn't get it. Barb warrior blocking Scout west of Venice.
T18 3280BC. Scout discovers Mt. Kalish! Ouch, its just out of range of a coastal city in the Genoa region. Shrine complete, start Monument.
T19 3240BC. Discover Monaco; Cultured, Friendly; I Pledge to Protect. Warrior kills barb warrior near Venice. Woah, that's the top of the map. Venice doesn't even have tier 3 tiles to the north.
T20 3200BC. Darn, I really want to kill that MoV. If he heads toward Monaco I'd kill him. A friendly cultured CS would be a great loss to the world.
Interim. An unknown civilization has started worshiping Oral Tradition.


Venice has Gems and Pearls, we will have lots of Pearls; that may be a good pantheon.
We're going to have a decision to make about settling in the Genoa region. Do we settle coastal and lose Mt. Kalish? Or settle off the coast to get it.
I didn't find any ruins either. Perhaps they're are none.
Edit. I probably should've bought one of those deer when we got 50g. Our production is low.

 

[beetle]

I vote to kill the MoV. Two wonders? We have to take OWN!