Men have upper hand in sexual economy

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Cheetah

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http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/18/men-have-upper-hand-in-sexual-economy/
Men have upper hand in sexual economy

It's not a new theory: As women progress in educational and professional opportunities, their odds of finding a committed man appear to go down. Women in their 40s and 50s have long heard this, but new research finds it's true for women just entering adulthood as well.

That's one of the findings in the new book "Premarital Sex in America: How Young Americans Meet, Mate and Think About Marrying," by researchers Mark Regnerus and Jeremy Uecker at the University of Texas at Austin.

They looked at the results from a number of national studies including the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health and the National Study of Youth and Religion, in addition to interviews with young people ages 18 to 23.

Researchers found that since women in the 18- to 23-year-old group feel they don't need men for financial dependence, many of them feel they can play around with multiple partners without consequence, and that the early 20s isn't the time to have a serious relationship. But eventually, they do come to want a real, lasting relationship. The problem is that there will still be women who will have sex readily without commitment, and since men know this, fewer of them are willing to go steady.

"Women have plenty of freedom, but freedom does not translate easily into getting what you want," Regnerus said.

The wide availability of pornography has also influenced the dynamics of relations between men and women, Regnerus said. A segment of 20-something men are content to have their sexual experiences by themselves, removing them from the pool of available partners. That means high-quality men - likely those who want monogamous, committed relationships - are still eligible for dating, but the overall dating pool has shrunk, meaning some women will be left unsatisfactorily single.

Researchers also found that marrying at or before age 20 constitutes the greatest risk for subsequent divorce, the data show. Early marriage doesn’t cause the divorce, but the partners are likely to be unprepared for the kinds of adjustments required, Regnerus said.

And here's perhaps some good news: Sexual behavior among this age group is less salacious than you might think. The "hookup culture" is most prominent when there is a Greek system present; otherwise, college students seem more inclined toward stable relations and have fewer sexual partners.

In case you were wondering, 16% of 18- to 23-year-olds are virgins, according to the surveys used in the book. In that age group there are more men than women who have never had sex. By age 27, the portion of virgins goes down to 8%.
Thoughts?

Personally I think the authors mix up some arguments a bit, but I think they are correct in many ways.

The problem for well educated women isn't that men are less interested in them because they're educated. The actual problem is that the women spent too much time getting educated (and working), so that they're older when looking for a suitable mate, and secondly that women want a man of higher status than themselves, and raising their status by getting a good education necessarily limits their then suitable dating pool.

That promiscuous women in their twenties is a strong incentive for men not to get into a long term relationship is kinda obvious.

Finally, I doubt that most men prefer to watch porn instead of meeting real women. It is more that they're not attractive to most women, so they've given up and resigned and turn to porn to have a semblance of a sexual life.

So, for the well educated, well employed men who are attractive enough, a good case can be made that they do have the upper hand. At least after their mid-twenties, when those traits are starting to pay off.
 
Orly?! I thought women had the upper hand because they can reject any man that peruses her.
 
Orly?! I thought women had the upper hand because they can reject any man that peruses her.

Any guy can also reject any girl that pursues her.

That having been said though, I talked this over with my girlfriend recently, and we agreed that rejection, while painful for men, is an even bigger deal for women. Being rejected by a guy means that you truly are in no way attractive, which is of course, a huge hit to a woman's self-esteem.

I don't think porn replaces anyone's sexuality though. I mean, most guys watch porn, within a certain extent, but I haven't met anyone who wouldn't prefer a real woman.
 
Title is misleading. Promiscuous non-committed people have the upper hand in sexual economy, according to article.
 
While it may be true that some men have longer term commitments to certain porn sites that the women they date, most would probably prefer to be with real women (though not in a relationship that lasts as long as their commitment to that favorite porn site).
 
Title is misleading. Promiscuous non-committed people have the upper hand in sexual economy, according to article.
Yes, except women age worse than men, so men can go on being promiscuous for longer without the same consequences.

And that's without talking about the negative social stigma that hits girls harder than it hits men.
 
I don't think the argument is so much about men preferring porn to a real woman if they happen to stumble upon one, but rather about men preferring porn to go hunting for women and potentially earning a lot of rejections.
 
Yes, except women age worse than men, so men can go on being promiscuous for longer without the same consequences.

And that's without talking about the negative social stigma that hits girls harder than it hits men.
True on both accounts, though as we come to respect more and more women in high places, as women who we don't view as overcompensating for their femininity but just as power persons who are women, I think their attractiveness changes somewhat (does Hillary Clinton have more sex appeal now at 60ish or when she was first on the national scene at 40? botox helps but that doesn't overcome 20 years. it's a cultural shift) Combine that with cougar culture, and you have a move in the direction of accepting older women.
 
Seems to me that there are too many women who have poorer judgement than men. While they are promiscuously having sex with many partners in their 20s, they should be taking the best men off the market as they find them, but instead squander their opportunity out of sexual greed, somehow believing their streak will never end. And when they are finally in their 40's, their standards are so high that no man can ever meet them. Men, it seems to me, are of a simpler opportunistic lot. A man will just have sex with many women throughout his life, as they come, and if he stumbles on one that is marriage material, he will take her off the market. Of course the knowledge of what woman is marriable depends on life experience and the wisdom gained therein, so the point in time for every man varies, but it usually happens eventually.

I don't have much sympathy for women and their supposed woes. They always have the sexual upper hand because they have many offers and the latitude to refuse, often without any effort on their part.
 
Orly?! I thought women had the upper hand because they can reject any man that peruses her.

In the news it clearly says that it's so when applied to "high quality males", that's to say, men with a financial independence & stability and willing to be monogamous.

That having been said though, I talked this over with my girlfriend recently, and we agreed that rejection, while painful for men, is an even bigger deal for women. Being rejected by a guy means that you truly are in no way attractive, which is of course, a huge hit to a woman's self-esteem.

That's not true. In a couple of times I've rejected attractive girls. Why? Because I didn't find them attractive. Where they attractive? Yes, but not to me.

True on both accounts, though as we come to respect more and more women in high places, as women who we don't view as overcompensating for their femininity but just as power persons who are women, I think their attractiveness changes somewhat (does Hillary Clinton have more sex appeal now at 60ish or when she was first on the national scene at 40? botox helps but that doesn't overcome 20 years. it's a cultural shift) Combine that with cougar culture, and you have a move in the direction of accepting older women.

A move doomed to fail because of menopause. I find really stupid saying that large proportions of men will prefer sterile women over fertile ones.
 
They seem to have ignored the most obvious reason that educated women might have more trouble: in younger age cohorts there are more educated women than men, and that trend continues to accelerate.
 
They seem to have ignored the most obvious reason that educated women might have more trouble: in younger age cohorts there are more educated women than men, and that trend continues to accelerate.

This + the fact that most women are still stuck in the "let-him-do-the-first-step" culture. Many still don't believe that now they have to look for us too.
 
Nowadays some women seem to believe that the attention they get from men when they're younger will carry on indefinitely, so there isn't any need to find one guy and commit.

The unfortunate reality though is that women who don't find a long-term partner in their twenties or early thirties are in for a tough time ahead as after that point their looks will deteriorate extremely quickly. Men on the other hand have a lot more time on their hands which does give them an advantage in later life.

I disagree completely with the article's assertion that men won't settle down if they can get sex without settling down, as it assumes that male psychology is inherently opposed to monogamous relationships and that a man will only settle down as some sort of sacrifice he has to make in order to get sex. That isn't the way real people's minds work. Men want relationships as much as women do- especially later in life like the men this article is primarily describing.
 
The irony is that marriage makes men happier/healthier but not women.

Also, men can't just sleep around. They could in theory, but in practice it's difficult for most. The average American has about 6-9 sexual partners in their whole life.
 
The irony is that marriage makes men happier/healthier but not women.

Also, men can't just sleep around. They could in theory, but in practice it's difficult for most. The average American has about 6-9 sexual partners in their whole life.

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abstinence is taunting these women
 
Nanocyborgasm has allmost left nothing to add (as in being both very right and to the point). I'll none the less give it my own take.

Title is misleading. Promiscuous non-committed people have the upper hand in sexual economy, according to article.
Yes, except women age worse than men, so men can go on being promiscuous for longer without the same consequences.

And that's without talking about the negative social stigma that hits girls harder than it hits men.
Hygro, what you said is (most likely) not correct and at least not what the text cheetah quoted says.

It was allready mentioned that women are supposed to have the upper hand. They do - when they are young. Essentially women age 20 have all the men in the world to choose from. They can have the men that are 20 as well as the men that are 40 (with "have" i mean start a serious relationship etc.).
As long as one compares a woman and a man age 20 the woman pretty much has the upper hand. With age that changes: Some of the men age 40 are not availably, they are either on some woman age 20 instead of some guy age 20 who plays WoW in his mom's basement or are playing WoW in their mom's basement themselves.
And for the rest she has to compete with all the other women that are age 40. That's a very unfavorable market. If that woman age 40 was a hottie when she was young, she has royally screwed up.

What's fairly debatable though is: Why do all these women not have men? They could have easily gotten a rather decent one when they were young but didn't do so.
I neither believe this is all about "promiscuity" - women equally fail at this no matter whether they are promiscuous when they are young or not - nor do i believe this is all about women getting a better education and better carreers today.
It's probably simply a result of the erosion of marriage as an institution itself. Barry Schwartz** had it right: "In the old days" everybody settled**. Everybody was expected to be married at 22 at the latest and to stick with their partner.
In really bad cases people divorced and people age 40 expierienced a fairly small but rather even market, provided the woman wasn't to dependent on the men's resources (which of course she often was). As a wealthy widow, 41, it was way easier to get a decent long term partner several decades ago than it is today.
That chain of expectations from parents, peers etc. was considered uncomfortable by both men and women for very good reasons and i don't want to argue here that we should get it back. But it was an excellent tool to trick human biology and essentially increase the overall quantity of "husband*" or "potential husband*" available to the woman age 40 at the expense of the freedoms (and said value) of the woman age 20.

So the market has changed to:
If you are a man, stay single until you are 40 and only drop out of the race when you get some very attractive young woman.
If you're a woman, you have to think really fast, learn really fast and make a very wise choice preferably at age 22 (or something).
Good luck with that.

It's not that women don't want to find a long term partner at 22. Imo most of them do. It's not that their education keeps them from doing so. They simply fail to make a decent choice in time - mostly because they have so many options (i.e. men) to choose, which makes the choice much harder than it has ever been for anyone else (sex/age groups, not individual people of course).

*replace with "long term partner" if you want to
True on both accounts, though as we come to respect more and more women in high places, as women who we don't view as overcompensating for their femininity but just as power persons who are women, I think their attractiveness changes somewhat (does Hillary Clinton have more sex appeal now at 60ish or when she was first on the national scene at 40? botox helps but that doesn't overcome 20 years. it's a cultural shift) Combine that with cougar culture, and you have a move in the direction of accepting older women.
First of all:
Since you mentioned cougars, please, let's not confuse casual sex and long term pair bonding here. Sure Stifler's mom has no trouble getting laid. But her prospects in marrying (or whatever) a high school senior are a totally different matter.

None of what you said is wrong. But huw does it matter?
I agree that Mrs. Clinton's authority and competence do make her more attractive than she would be if she would have been confined to be a homemaker all her life.
But i still can't see a majority of men choosing her over a woman that is young, healthy (and not exactly super-fat).

Just to be sure what we are talking about with regard to the overwhelming majority of men's preferences:

hillary7young.jpg


We could have a poll.

**Actually this could perfectly well explain civ_king's numbers, since they are most likely not objective but some sort of self-rated thing.
 
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