Merge Sorcery and Summoning?

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Actually I want Metamagic III to be
Targets enemy arcane unit. Removes alll promotions of target. Caster loses Metamagic III.

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

A silence spell would be a cool thing for some of the priests. Prevents spell casting for one stack, 50% chance of wearing off per turn.

 

[Nefelia]

Crush (may become a special dwarven druid spell)

Yes, please leave this spell available for Dwarven Druids. They wouldn't be worth the heavy investment outside the usual tech paths otherwise.

 

[psychoak]

First point, violent reactions to dramatic changes. You work for free, thus any remotely logical person . .. .. .. .. .ing at you for planning a change has to have his head up his ass to get it out without feeling like a heel. Now if you were paid to amuse us, this might be an entirely different story.

Onto the concepts.

Too many spells? Hell yes. Oodles of near identical summons primarily. The fire damage and whatnot is nice, but fire elementals aren't any better against 99.99% of the units you run into. Rare is the fire vulnerable unit you need to kill, and odds are you could kill it anyway with any other summon you could have picked. Would I want to get rid of all the summons though? Not really. More differentiation would be nice, pitbeasts and spectres have excellent usage. Air elementals being near immune to physical damage for instance. I do like the idea though, too many spells.

Merging the split classes... ugh... I like having two seperate paths, the awesome supporting firepower and diverse capabilities of the arcane path, or the more physical, extremely powerful, but single in purpose summoning path. Mixing them into the same thing just means you don't have to choose whether to have more variable effects that can help in war and peace and compliment your permanent units, or more powerful, but self contained weapons that don't directly aide anything else. To give both at the same time means you have singular power and complimentary power on the same units. They'd need to take twice as long to get or be half as good. Neither option is good for flavor from my perspective.

An alternative. I really think you have way too many mana types. Not so much the spheres themselves, but the physical mana. Why have entropy mana? Lets assume that we stick to the current spheres. Does entropy really need it's own arcane and summoning spells? If you broke them down into divine spheres and arcane/summoning spheres, you could cut out a huge number of spells and significantly reduce the workload without touching the arcane spells at all. Instead of a ritualist with summoning/divine and fire/death/entropy for three different summons and a whole lot of nonsense, you could skip the entirely pointless entropy spells like wither, enervation and defile, leave the already lacking a divine sphere death alone and neuter fire and get rid of some duplication, I'd say switch ring of fire or pillar of fire with meteor swarm and cut the divine sphere. Then just repeat that with the other priests, merge the spells to keep the ones you like, toss the garbage, clean out the divine sphere entirely.

No more divine sphere and no more religious based mana additions with their accompanying arcane and summoning spells and you get rid of a whole bunch of clutter.

Edit: oops?
If you do go with this route, a suggestion. Fewer t3 summons.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I think Dimensional spells could be something like:

Rift: the caster creates a 'rift' building which is able to air lift a unit from its city to any other city with a rift. --- this means that 2 cities would both need a rift in them and so a dimensional mage in each city. not sure how the Ai would cope with this. if not, then make it build a 'rift' improvment on the terrain that acts like an airport whereby units can be air lifted within a certain range? make the rift improvement dissapear after x turns or have a y% chance of dissapearing each turn.

Planar Call: the caster summons a random summon monster from any other spell sphere, ie could summon an aurielis, mistform, fire elemental etc. perhaps add some other special summons for dimentsional magic only?

on the topic of fair winds, i find this spell one of THE MOST USELESS spells in the entire game. i NEVER use it. at all. ever. if i had a say i would replace it with something like as follows:

Scry Winds: the caster does a 'scouting mission' like a hawk, which uses all movement. Or, so as not to step on the hawks toes, just add the 'vision 3' promotion temporarily. the one starting settlers start with.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still think that Fair Winds should grant Air mana "movement affinity" (+1 movement per air mana instead of +1 str)

 

[GePap]

I really would hate to see so many level 3 summonses go. the level two summonses for the most part are useless, but the level 3 summonses I think do add great depth.

I would agree with the suggestion made earlier that the distinction between archmages and summoners be kept for high level units. In terms of the high level summonses, they should all become permanent like treants are in this version, and they should in fact be given limited magic ability in their sphere, say the level 1 or level 2 spells. You could set a limit so that any civ can only have three level three summoned units at any time, to prevent the creation of some massive summons army.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I still think that Fair Winds should grant Air mana "movement affinity" (+1 movement per air mana instead of +1 str)

Actually thats a good idea. i like that, but would it be for the caster only or all units with it cast on them?



I actually just forgot to give my opinion on th merging:
i think it is a good call, mainly because i rarely use both branches at the same time, and so either miss out on the arcane or summoning spells. it is also good becasue of the drop in number of spells, as there are definately a LOT at the moment.

however i would love to make it so that each race has their own civ specific spells for their casters only. for example:
Sheim casters could have the Summon Imp as a free level 1 spell, Summon Hell Hound (new) as a free level 2 spell, and Summon Succubus as a free level 3 spell.
or Malakim would have Summon Sand Lion, White Fire, Crown of Radience as their 3 free civ specific spells.
ETC. it could be difficult comming up with 3 unique spells for each civ though...

 

[Verdian]

I really like these change ideas. A slimmer spell list means more diversity with fewer mages, and an improved AI. To address some of the concerns...

1) Have lichdom be an event that requires a death mana flare. At least that way it is still possible. Or have it be able to enter through a planar gate if you have the archmage tech.

2) Fairwinds... Yes, it is kind of useless. How about having it add +1 trade route if cast in coastal cities, as well as having ships in the city get the promotion? That way you could plop down a caster, have it cast fairwinds, and leave it the city. It could upgrade the ships like bronze and the other metals do; just drive a ship into the port. This would be easier on the AI, too, I'd think.

3) Let resurrection use any node.

4) Trust could create peace with the barbarians, as well, for a limited amount of turns. It would still be a one cast spell and be very helpful late game.

 

[Ahwaric]

I did not expected to see this thread so soon.. You really work fast

To the point: I like the idea of merging mages with conjurers and (a bit less, but still) tier 4 casters (by the way, still just 3 archamges? I think there should be a bit more allowed if summoners are gone). But I do not think there should be a strict rule: one spell per sphere level. It could be one good spell or two weaker or one normal, one with special purpose (lichdom & inspiration come in mind - basically one-timers).
That would also allow to reduce a bit the current number of mana types and we will get some room to implement dimensional & metamagic instead. 15 is too much, especially for a beginner - it is really hard to choose and the problem is much bigger than with separate sorcery & summoning lines.
As for the civ-special spells and unique spells for exceptional casters - great idea

Priests
I think that reducing their spells to just one school + healing is a bit much. At least give them ability to cast lvl 1 spells (loyality, courage, sanctify fit priests more than mages anyway). I never understood why they do not get channeling 1 - I have modded it and it works fine.

I think also that order priests should be able to use at least a bit of fire and AV to summon. Sun divine spells are too much on the offensive side, especially for the empyrean... (should be more defensive/counter espionage instead, or just give them spirit spells that go in that direction) I generallly do not like offensive spells on priests (Order & AV should be exceptions), better if they have support/buffing role.

Elemental magic
I think it should follow (more or less) the schema: 1 base spell (like them as they are), 2 offensive spell, 3 good summon (need to be balanced)
I do not like rust - it is not fun, and can't imagine rusted bronze, not to mention mithrill Give us weaker crush instead
Water walk is fine, but rarely useful. So water sphere is a laugh beyond spring - on top of water walking the worst elemental. The second level should have 2 spells: water walk and a weak to moderate offensive spell (ice if ice sphere will not be in or acid based or just some kind of flood, tsunami is too limited and too sea-themed)

Alteration
I think it should have mostly buffs, debuffs and special purpose spells (terraforming, things like spellstaff, regeneration, hastur's razor) No summons except treants, and it is a good idea to make this spell divine

Necromacy
I do not use it much, but it seems fine. Lichdom as a death 2 extra spell seems great

 

[hossam]

please dont take contagion out of the game i love that spell.

 

[TheJopa]

Suggestion for sanctify - replace Fallout with Consecration - just reskin it from yellow to white, consecration would stop demons and undead from entering the tile and possibly yield some commerce bonus.

 

[Kjaaly]

I have to admit, I was a bit when I saw the thread. Now, when I see what you have planned, I feel much better. Still, I can't help but feel that while it may improve gameplay, it's a bit flavor-butchering. I like Nikis-Knights idea of merging mages and conjurers, while letting archmages and summoners stay seperate. I think that summoning and sorcery are different enough for one to only study one.
That being said, I like cutting the most boring of the spells, and the creation of cross-sphere spells. That could create some pretty nifty effects, which normally wouldn't really fit in, or which would be imbalanced.

 

[Dora190]

This doesn't surprise me and I don't have any problems with it either, There were a lot of nodes I never bothered with and spells I never used. How will this affect the tech tree though?


Creation
Isn't this close to nature mana?


Dimensional
Escape
I've always thought dimensional was a bit pointless maybe for a third lvl summons the Hound of Tyndlass - Mid range summons that is targeted on a unit anywhere that the casting player can 'see' the target doesn't get defensive bonuses of course (too many angles on the maps!).

Earth
Wall of Stone (kinda boring, maybe add an effect when it is cast outside of cities?)
Rust (kinda boring, anything more interesting we can do?)
Conjure Earth Elemental (replaces crush)

I've always thought stoneskin belongs in earth. Maybe instead of wall of stone building, it grants a defensive promotion with a chance of wearing off. Useful when you need to protect a stack for example. Another possibility would be to change rust to some kind of terrain spell, create or destroy mine or some such. I've never really found a use for Rust, fireball is much more efficient.

Entropy
Wither
Defile (very specific, needs a broader use)
Enervation (boring, need something more interesting)

This is another I only use if I'm sticking to flavour. Perhaps have defile degrade terrain over time, Grassland to plain to desert to Hell terrain for instance. This could become quite annoying over time and as each one degenerates to hell terrain it advances the clock?
Putrefaction - Raises any units killed in a tile as zombies, have the physical promotions but no spells or abilities. Zombies so summoned last for a set period of time before melting!

Entropy should have a summons, but i can't think of anything appropriate

Ice

Icewalk?
Blizzard - like maelstrom, but damages the target and traps it in 'whiteout' conditions. Units susceptible to cold would take extra damage.
Summon Polar Bear?

Spirit
Courage
Hope
Trust (probably needs to be more powerful)
I find trust useless, I never use it.

Veil (start with unholy taint promotion)
Ring of Flames
Summon Balor

Always thought Ring of flames was a bit too righteous for the bad guys.
Dark Ritual - takes random promotions from the other units in the casters tile and adds them to the caster. Each promotion can only be added once. As will all ashen stuff there's a down side. The spell doesn't work on heroes or Zombies (see above)


These two I'd miss ( I like Azer's artwork)
Banish
Summon Azer

I'd also like to add that the Hyborem should enter the world if the clock reaches a certain point, like the Horsemen. In far too many games no-one will summon him

 

[schlalex]

Merging Summoning and Sorcery would be a desastrous idea for me.
The thing that makes FFH2 so attractive to me is the pure number of spells (and buildings). Since i am new to this mod i think many noobs will miss this amount of possible choices.

I also want a better AI, but not at any cost.

 

[Fenham Dave]

Having followed, played and loved this mod for two years ish (without saying much) this is almost the first time I've had an opinion worth typing.

I think this change would be a marvellous idea for the following reasons

1) Anything the mod team (and Kael in particular) thinks will improve FFH absolutely will, we've seen this time and again and anyone who doubts this hasn't been following the mod for long enough.
2) Anything that makes life easier for the team will benefit all those who enjoy FFH
3) Whether you play SP or MP (I'm assuming people summon Hyborem and Basium here), the AI is of massive importance and anything done to improve it will be hugely popular.
4) Finally, newbies will find the magic system easier to swallow and this will hopefully help to increase the size of this tremendous community.

FD

PS I'm not a fan of the civs with the summoning trait and as a result can hardly remember building a conjurer or summomer, this may have coloured my view but I cant be alone in this.

PPS Love your work guys

 

[sylvain5477]

The only thing im worried about with this design is its impact on the summoning trait. hmm..

Maybe make summons permanent and make summoning trait simply add special "powers" to every remaining summon (special promotion which makes the unit more powerful or more versatile).
(for exemple the fire elemental can have collateral damage for everyone and ring of fire "special" spell for leaders with summoning trait, making it more useful).

 

[Xuenay]

I like it. I didn't see much of a use for Summoning before, unless I was playing somebody with the Summoner trait. Sorcery was both more flexible and more powerful.

I do think the archmages should be left with some more anti-stack power, though. Otherwise they'll get nerfed a bit too much and become useless against an enemy who does use large stacks. Give the fire elemental bombard power, or something.

Enervation (boring, need something more interesting)

Drains all the energy from its foes, making them lifeless husks... though for some foes it goes further still, powering those dead bodies with negative energy and making them creatures of destruction? (In game terms, a target killed by Enervation has a chance of becoming an undead barbarian unit with strength equal to half of the original unit's - but with all of their promotions. Use with care, and be sure to hand out this spell to the barbarian heroes for some great mayhem.)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

On the note of the summoning trait, what if civ casters with the summoning trait have an ability to summon a familiar to their side? like a free permanent summon with every Wizard!! the familiar could be a randomly selected unit from a pool of familiar units, like giant spider, Owl, Cat, Boar, Wolf, Badger all those typical DnD familar animals.

the familiar would act like cannon fodder for the summoner and assassins would probably pick off the familiar before the caster effectively giving the caster a second 'life'. familiars could also potentially have a special ability that boosts the potency of its masters spells (ie +10% spell damage). Maybe even give casters the capability to carry familiars as a hunter carrys hawks. maybe civs without the summoning trait could get the familiar ability through promotions, after combat 5 or something.

so:

new promotion: Familiar.: adds a spell which permanently summons a random familiar unit to the caster. the spell is greyed out while the familiar is alive, but when it dies the caster regains the ability.

The Summoning Trait:: should then add the familiar promotion to all arcane units, so even new adepts can summon a familiar to help them in their studys.

Each kind of familiar summoned should have slightly different benefits. for example an Owl Familiar could increase the line of sight of the caster as though it had the vision 1 promotion. the Cat familiar could give the owner an extra first strike. the Giant spider familiar could give the caster an extra poison strength. and so on.

not sure if these ideas are any good, i know familiars have been discussed elsewhere before, and im tired, so please excuse me if this is incomprehensible

 

[daladinn]

i think the changes are for the most part great.

i was going to complain about the removal of unholy taint but i caught that it was goign to be a default spell now , so thats good.

love the boost the boost the order gets in maintaining a large civ. the offensive boost to FoL is nice also.

if i would change anything it woudl be the AV summon. if you can change it from the balor to the pit beast it would still maintain its flavor and be a bit more useful.