Merge Sorcery and Summoning?

[Monkeyfinger]

Kael thought Meteor Swarm was TOO good. Didn't like how good archmages were at destroying city defenses and raping stacks, so he cut out their big ways to do that.

Lifespark was a way of doing things that priests can now do without their help (they can get medic 3 and heal now). I raised royal hell when I first heard lifesparks were gone, but when I learned of the changes to priests I settled down.

I never found Guardian Vines any good. Guess the designers didn't either.

 

[hbar]

Idea for Force III spell:

Earthmover's Guild (or some better name)
-temporary building that provides +25% and/or +'s for each arcane unit (maybe 1 for adept, 2 for mage, and 4 for archmage)

Maybe nerf as a spell and add as a wonder, with 2x production with Force mana? Although I like the idea of a roaming band of mages, constructing wonders with their minds...

Also, maybe make it so bonus only applies to buildings, not units.

 

[Omegon3]

Kael thought Meteor Swarm was TOO good. Didn't like how good archmages were at destroying city defenses and raping stacks, so he cut out their big ways to do that.

There's a problem with being too good...???

 

[Omegon3]

OK... I have a couple of questions regarding the loss of "metor swarm" (perhaps my favorite spell when going to war -- or defending against incoming forces).

1. Will the dragons still have this spell?

2. For those of us not adverse to "dabbling" a bit in XML, is this change actually part of the code (not that XML isn't code) or is this somewhere in the XML that it could possibly be added back in? If it is something in the XML, would one of the developers be adverse to telling us how this could be done? I think that I've mentioned before that I'm sufficiently chicken sh*t that I don't mind something as powerful as meteor swarm making the game a little easier...

Thanks.

 

[Kael]

Dragons can still breate fire as before. Metoer sworm can be added back in just through XML changes (it doesnt require any additional code).

 

[Niveras]

By the way, when were you planning on implementing the rebalanced spell system? With .31? With Ice? I'm anxious to see the changes implemented, to see whether the AI will handle them any better.

Also, if I may be so bold, I'd like to caution against making the all the tier3 spells elemental summons. While in some cases with the right mix of abilities they can add unique strenghts to an army (I am thinking, as I mentioned in my previous post on page 10, high movement/blitz air elementals and collateral damage fire elementals), some would be little more than light cannon fodder and offer only one extra weak unit to your attacking stack, whose power would surely not even rival a national unit. I am particularly thinking of the wrath and earth elemental, for whom I could not think what flavorful abilities you can give them without being underpowered or overpowered (although granted it could just be my limited imagination).

 

[Omegon3]

Dragons can still breate fire as before. Metoer sworm can be added back in just through XML changes (it doesnt require any additional code).

OK... How would I do it? Which XML?

 

[Omegon3]

Before I use up my last raw mana resource on my continent... I started looking through the posts to find my answer, but after three pages gave up the ghost. Does the "metamagic" mana replace "dimensional"?

Thanks.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

No. Meta Magic is the representative sphere of the Amurites (who are the only civ to start with it). It is new in .31 (well, the resource actually existed already, but the promotions, spells, build orders, etc did not, so it might as well have not existed in any form before yesterday.)

It allows:
I. Floating eye (the former mind 2 divine spell)

II. Dispel Magic (the old chaos2 sorcery spell, but now with the added bonus of making mana revert back to raw mana. No more need to make your cities go into revolt)

III. Summon Djinn (the old water 2 summoning spell, but Djinns have been changed greatly. They now have 1 affinity for all types of mana)

In addition to the spells, each level also increases the damage the unit deals with direct damage spells by 5, and decreases the damage taken from enemy spells by 5.



The Dimensional sphere was removed, since it only had one spell and he was looking for things to cut. Its only spell, escape, is now a unit-specific spell that only Chanters (Amurite assassin UUs) can cast. The only civ to start with Dimensional (the Sheaim, who are the representatives of this sphere) were given death instead, despite the diplomatic penalties that were used to explain why no one had it before. The Nexus no longer has any resource requirement.

However, Kael did say that he may add it back (but with the full 3 levels like all the other spheres) if he comes up with 3 good enough spells that are on the same level with the spells for other spheres (I'm think that there have been plenty of good suggestions, such as mine, but maybe they were too powerful.) I definitely plan to implement Dimensional whenever I have time to make a new version of my modmod.





Reimplementing Meteor Swarm:
The file you want in C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2 031\Assets\XML\Units\CIV4SpellInfos.xml. I don't think the schema has been changed, so you could probably just copy the Meteor swarm spell defines from the same file from .30; keep in mind though, the Sorcery promotion has been removed. I think that the spells button was just that for the unit (which from Kael's comments about breathe fire I assume has not been changed), so that should be ok.

Why Dragons breath meteors I'll never know. Fire balls would make more sense, although they might be too weak. In my modmod I'll probably remove breath fire (mostly because I'm adding Drifa from AoI and I don't think that Ice Dragins should breath fire), but I'll probably let the current dragons have a Pillar of Fire type spell (with an ice equivalent for Drifa)

 

[Omegon3]

The Dimensional sphere was removed, since it only had one spell and he was looking for things to cut. Its only spell, escape, is now a unit-specific spell that only Chanters (Amurite assassin UUs) can cast. The only civ to start with Dimensional (the Sheaim, who are the representatives of this sphere) were given death instead, despite the diplomatic penalties that were used to explain why no one had it before.

I assume that this means that the Nexus no longer requires dimensional mana to build? While I haven't yet reached this technology in my current game, I'm crossing my fingers that this is what it means and not that it was simply overlooked...

Reimplementing Meteor Swarm:
The file you want in C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Fall from Heaven 2 031\Assets\XML\Units\CIV4SpellInfos.xml. I don't think the schema has been changed, so you could probably just copy the Meteor swarm spell defines from the same file from .30; keep in mind though, the Sorcery promotion has been removed. I think that the spells button was just that for the unit (which from Kael's comments about breathe fire I assume has not been changed), so that should be ok.

Why Dragons breath meteors I'll never know. Fire balls would make more sense, although they might be too weak. In my modmod I'll probably remove breath fire (mostly because I'm adding Drifa from AoI and I don't think that Ice Dragins should breath fire), but I'll probably let the current dragons have a Pillar of Fire type spell (with an ice equivalent for Drifa)

Thanks for the input; I'll probably play around with changing the file once I've been through a couple of games to see how it goes (I REALLY liked the meteor swarm though, as with you, I wonder why dragons had the ability -- neat though it was!!). The Pillar of Fire spell for dragons seems like it makes a lot of sense -- this is a spell that I really like in the discipline units that have it (though the Empyreans' spells are pretty cool also -- I just think that the Leaf and Kilmorph disciples are pretty useless since I don't like destroying improvements of a city that I'm going to take).

 

[Omegon3]

Holy Cow!!!! I finally got to the point where I could create Archmages and, before starting to build them, I went to the Civilopedia "Units" section just to verify that I could build six of them (replacing the three lost summoners!!). Well... We can only build four archmages (and, based upon the threads, we don't have liches any more?)? I think this is a BIG loss in power. To go with the standard "three" special units you can build from certain technologies, I typically stock each with an archmage, summoner, and lich (and any discipline units that I might have available -- however, since I'm playing the Ulians I won't find out the impact on the discipline units for a while).

Isn't this cutting off a little bit too much power?

I guess that I don't really expect an answer on this one; just putting in my "two cents" worth...

 

[Mailbox]

4 Archmages and 4 Liches is a huge amount of power, only 1 less than the old method (3 archmages, 3 Summoners, and 3 Liches). Although, this does bring up the question of death mana being very powerful for an individual sphere.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, I think you should have 5 of each national unit now, but 4 is better than 3.

Death III has 2 spells, Summon Wraith and Lichdom. You can now get 4 Liches.


(In my modmod I'll probably make most level 3 sphere promotions grant at least 2 spells. I'll let you have 5 of each national unit, with at least 1 exception. I'll probably completely reword liches. I'm thinking they'll have death affinity, extra damage from combat, free combat and extension promotions, magic resistance, twincast, immortality, etc. You'll only be able to have 1 at a time. They'll start with a phylactery promotion/equipment. This can't be captured, and if it is destroyed the lich is destroyed. (The National Limit of 1 and inability to capture are the only way I can think of to link a particular lich to a particular phylactery.) )

 

[DREWid]

i still vote to give the amurites back meteor swarm as a civ specific spell ... it would give them that'yes we can swat you with majic' feel. but i would restrict it to govanno + there 4 living archmages, so liches would lose it on becoming undead.

if you think its to powerful tone it down a bit, ie 3 fireballs instead of meteors, or just 2 meteors.

it would also make them a uu comparible with the eaters of dreams, which is approriate for the worlds greates mages

 

[DREWid]

[repost from bug thread but i think its important]

so is it a feature that you dont need to be a mage to cast tier 2 spells? as if you have 3 of one type of mana you get the level 2 spell on your adepts, and can cast it.

because if it is the amurites may as well just go home, because now everyone can do fireball mages of death just by getting 3 fire mana and having fireball out of the box on adepts

 

[Blackmantle]

In the current magic-system where you just need the sphere promotions to cast and not channeling (Priests having channeling is just an oversight i belive. Ganavon has been made able to teach deciples again for the very reason that what is possible again now shouldnt work at all.) it strongly seems like a feature.

Is a nice-power-up for having a lot of multiple mana sources of the same type. So i think that bit should stay. (and in fact its more natural / easier to understand and unrestrictive than the channeling-casting-restriction. The very aim of the merge.)
3 Nodes of the same type before researching Sorcery is not an everyday feat after all. (and Fire is not to be gained by wonders / shrines. If anything by the now not so safe Pyre and 2 additional Nodes + Elementalism. Or Palace + Pyre + Node or Palace +2 Nodes)

There is if i get it right no way to easiely get 3 mana of the same type without getting the corosponding Node-tech first. (ok for Shaim death is possible with Broken Sepulcher and Soul Forge from Malvolent Designs might be the exeption. But MD isn't an early game tech in its own right and the Soul Forge is neither cheap nor purely beneficial.). The Node-techs are one relatively small step from Sorcery i reckon. (And vasalizing isn't that early or easy either and usually requires some hard fighting before.)
Fire not even for the Amurites. Far less any other non-fire-starting-civ. So its their special spellcasting advantage, no going home for them enjoy it while that advantage lasts.

(On a side note: Luchirp get the very same advantage at the same tech level for the same price (Wood- or Mudgolems with blasting-workshops.) without having 3 nodes or a fitting palace-Mana. Still not everyone calls them the fireballing golems of death and its not a fool-proof strategy and is by no ways sending the Amurites home. Try them if you haven't allredy and like fireballing alot.)


To be honest i find the new Shaim with triple death at necormancy many times scarier. With 3 Death their Adept-summoned Spectres start at 6 Str! and invoke fear (with combat 5 adepts (Power 9! spectres anyone?) that reeks of Meteor-Shower! at adept level.
I already anticipate Ecofarm complaining. Unlimited fear-inducing 3-turn lasting 9! sending everyone home.).
Oh, btw. their spectres grow stronger with any single node / death mana you can get / conquer with your spectres.
You won't want to fight those at adept level (and their now functioning diseased corpses are so strong that Kael felt they where to strong to be seen by us and had to nerf them. Still less than funny to fight those.).
But that fits their flavor allright and makes the Sheiam a bit more newcomer-friendly and a lot stronger in early to mid-game.

So im all for that new feature.
One of the best side effects to the magic system imo.

And this one Tier-2 Spell out of the Box at Adept-level doesnt allow you to learn or cast any other Tier 2 spells out of the box...)
So one or perhaps even 2 Spells castable at adept-level for owning a large land area is very much allright in my book.
And it helps the AI as well who is quite fond of building multiple nodes of the same type it allready has.



Even though im all for 2 Spells per Sphere at Tier 3 (Archmage-Level) and returning of unyielding order to sorcery sphre law 3 or 4 instead of order redundancy (social order and unyielding order) and double-whak impedement of late Game for all other Religions / non-religious civs. (the one spell change i passionately dislike the most. It has taken away alot of the late-game builder-fun. And by no means is stronger or comparable to Meteor shower since for a start you confine your Arch-Mages to your cities. And big cities hardly win a fight on their own.)

 

[DREWid]

yeah but now the amurites just suck... they felt un-unique before (there were some pretty big threads about it) but now everyone can do half there world spell (re-setting mana nodes) and everyone can do the quick fireball mages of death ... at least in the old system people really had to specialise to match 10xp on a adept to be able to do fireball mages 'out-of-the-box' but now everyone can.

now the amurites really are a one trick pony and that ponys name is govannon without him what else have they got? 2 unique units who are way off there main tech line and a building that gives mages free xp... but with the spells being cut (which i agree with) this xp seems kinda wasted.

seriously if im missing something please tell me cuss these guys have nothing left that really makes em different from a baseline civ imho

 

[xienwolf]

Well then in that light if the Rank 2 spells on Adepts is intended, maybe the Govannon induced Archmagi Priests is also intentional. That means that the Amurites can now get 4 spare Archmages (though slightly limited in sphere selection), thus increasing their magical power over the rest of the world again.

 

[Blackmantle]

You miss Firebows, Chanters (only they have escape now) and that they start with metamagic. Actually allowing them to give any Spell they need to their adepts for free if you get 3 nodes :S. Without a 4th for metamagic and long leveling before...
And now only they get an additional promotion per tier...

I don't exactely call that one baseline...

and once again: The step from Sphere Techs to Sorcery is quite a small one, and lightbulbable

 

[DREWid]

2 unique units who are way off there main tech line and a building that gives mages free xp... but with the spells being cut (which i agree with) this xp seems kinda wasted.

errr.... no i did mention the 2 units... i didnt think it was nessisary to name them.

in the threads i mentioned that have already been run about amurite uniqueness the arguement was put forward by some that quickly produced fireball mages WAS the thing that made them unique... and if you accept that (and that arting the arguement was made by some of the 'big-guns' of the forum) then how can taking this away do anything but make them less unique and genrally more bland?

this coupled with the fact that now everyone can reset nodes really does rob them of what little unique mechanics they had... i love the history and look of the amurites... but now there is nothing that i can do with them as a civ that i cant do with any other civ (dwarfs aside) ...

as ive said before almost every civ i ffh plays differently from the others due to some mechanical difference, but now you can do pretty much everything the amurites can with almost every other civ.

and frankly a civ should not really on 1 hero to be able to feel mechanically different on a global scale.

and once again: The step from Sphere Techs to Sorcery is quite a small one, and lightbulbable

yes but if you can cast level 2 spells on a level 1 unit... you dont need to go to sorcery to cast them