metatron vs Lemon Merchant

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ori

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metatron appeals the below cited warning by Lemon Merchant:

metatron said:
Hello Ori, hello Bootstoots (I will add Cami as a backup in case you are busy or absent) :)

I would like to appeal the 1-point infraction recieved here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/canadas-national-symbolism-is-confusing-me.629222/

1. This infraction does not meet any of the standards in the bullet points in the rule against "trolling", nor does a violation against the rules of civility apply.
I am not attacking users here. I am not attacking any class of persons. Note that i am not even explicitly blaming Canadians for their flag, motto and anthem.
So this can only be judged as a violation as per the umbrella rule that defines basically anything "someone will react to" as trolling, to be subjectively judged.
It is possible to use that as a vague justification to uphold. I will try to convince you that you shouldn't.

2. There is precedent and this would be a stunning reversal, or worse, an anomaly. People make fun of, and even brutally mock national symbolism all the time. This should be and always was understood as a sticks-and-stones thing.
I should be allowed to call the Canadian flag "ugly" or "hateful" if i wanted to, let alone calling it uninspiring or boring.
If you go down this road of accomodating the taking of offense, you will be down to policing usage of the term "Murica" in no time. Never mind where Poland is.

3. The poblematic nature of the infraction becomes particularly apparent when one disects the reprimanded post.
Would i have been allowed any part of it? All of them? Seperately? If so, why is the combination so unsufferable for the habitually violated feelings of terribly oppressed Canadians?

4. The actual closure notice reveals the faulty logic employed by the acting mod, if not their subjective sensibilities:

"Moderator Action: This thread is veering off into an undesirable direction, and is now closed. This is a borderline troll thread and so far has not demonstrated any significant merit or reason to stay open. Infractions are forthcoming.

Thread closed. "
I - The thread has obvious merit. To claim that it doesn't is somewhat insulting.
II - If it had no merit to begin with the choice of words in "veering off" would be very odd.
III - If the thread was merely a "borderline troll thread", how is a one-point infraction lasting 1 month warranted?
IV - Isn't it customary for people to invest a lot less in their "troll threads"?
If it is one this is one heck of a polished and laborious troll thread.

Bottom line, occam's razor this.
Justifying this and sorting out this dubious language is at this point harder than to accept that some kind of mistake occured.

5. Some context: I have recently been openly mocked for my usage and command of the English language. I pleaded with the OT mods. Nothing happened.
That was not an unusual occurance.
If i can be maligned in this way and routinely attacked in all manners violating the rules of the board but get infractions with points for making fun of a flag, i'm not sure where this leaves me in terms of trust.

6. I tried to inquire about the infraction with the acting mod.
Said mod outright refused to explain their reasoning and refused to even tell me what the actual specific offense was.


metatron,

Your message (Canada's national symbolism is confusing me) contains inappropriate content:


You've successfully created and entire troll thread and have earned a 1 point infraction lasting 1 month. I don't know what prompted this, and I don't want to know, so don't even start with me about it. --LM

Please do not discuss content of this nature on our site. This does not follow our rules. Your message may have been removed or altered.

Your account's access may be limited based on these actions. Please keep this in mind when posting or using our site.
Dear Lemon Merchant,

yes, you don't have to know what started this.
I have to know what the charge is, though. The OP is about symbols, basically. And these symbols can be argued about. The motto for instance doesn't contain any sort of idealism (you know "something, something, freedom").
I am doing that. And if you cool your temper you may come to see that i am not even doing it in a mean way.
So, indeed, i need a charge here, beyond some ill-defined feeling.

I didn't malign any class of persons here, nor do any of the other categories in the trolling rule apply.
The only thing one could stretch for would be the rule on general rudeness. Which can hardly apply to national symbolism and iconography while there have been many a debate on this board regarding which continent exactly Poland is on.

So, do you have an actual charge? Cause as things stand now this looks like an appeal to me.

cheers
metatron
Don't be disturbed, i am merely "saving" your mod notices here vis a vis edits.

"Moderator Action: Warned for trolling --LM"

"Moderator Action: This thread is veering off into an undesirable direction, and is now closed. This is a borderline troll thread and so far has not demonstrated any significant merit or reason to stay open. Infractions are forthcoming.

Thread closed."
cheers
metatron

This is the entirety of the exchange. All three messages were sent on February the 24th (in CET anyway).
As i am sure you can tell, the mod in question and i have quite a bad relationship, which shouldn't be relevant.
However the mere fact that i have to guess and speculate as to what specific charge i would have to defend myself against, speaks volumes.

In summation this all increasingly feels like "trolling - because i don't like your opinion".
So:
I petition for removal of the infraction point either by overturn, downgrade or commutation,
for reasons of dubious merit, excessive disproportionality and lackluster procedure.

regards
metatron

PS:
I suggest you debate this directly, without seeking any further input from Lemon Merchant.
She made it explicitly clear in the very infraction notice that she has nothing to say (or hear) on the matter, after all.
To ask her now would leave me at - even more of - an undue disadvantage.
 
And here is Lemon Merchant's take on this:

Lemon Merchant said:
HI ori,

The only thing that I would like you to take into account is the thread itself. It's my belief that metatron was making a troll thread to annoy Canadian members for constantly getting on him about calling Canada "Canadia". In his post he attacks Canadian national symbols, sources of Canadian pride, etc. As a(n) (admittedly new) Canadian, I could make no other conclusion but that it was a troll thread as I can see how it would irritate others. I'm sure he will say (at great length) that he was trying to be funny. I disagree.

And I believe that I was impartial. I thought long and hard about infracting him, because it would look like bias on my part. I feel that I made the right decision.

Regards,

Lemon Merchant
 
Seems to me he posted this in response to this: "I have recently been openly mocked for my usage and command of the English language. I pleaded with the OT mods. Nothing happened.
That was not an unusual occurance."

Not sure I believe what he claims, that this post did not cause issues for Canadians, obviously it did. And if it was some sort of justice for his perception of the above statement, then that motivation is not acceptable.
In addition, think he is incorrect concerning the bullet points about trolling in the rules. This point applies:
--Generally being rude. Being overly critical, or expressing your opinions in a rude manner.

In general, this user seems to be playing rules lawyer and do not agree with his assessment of the consequences of any decision we might make. Isn't this also the user that threatens staff in his reporting of posts? Telling us that if we do not infract someone he feels "deserves it", he will post something blatantly against the rules and dares us to infract him? This post appears to me to be consistent with this behavior.

Vote to uphold the infraction.
 
I would overturn this, because I'm struggling to see what is objectionable about the post, particularly considering it is a non-RD thread, where posters are expected to cope with a bit of ribbing (though I'm not even sure that this would meet the 'provoke a negative reaction from a notional reasonable user' threshold in an RD thread).

'Nation bashing' has always been considered trolling, but that category doesn't capture any and all criticism. It only really applies to purposeless slanging. A reasoned post setting out why national symbols are problematic does not, I don't think, fall within that category, even before we take the non-RD context into account.

I don't think it's fruitful to find trolling in something simply because we suspect he was looking for payback over perceived slights. That intention on its own is not enough; it needs to be coupled with a pkst which can 'objectively' be considered trollish.
 
I see a user pattern of trying to troll for adverse reaction by Canadian users on this forum through mostly petty comments disparaging Canada and "you people" directed at Canadians as such even if I was willing to accept as "reasoned" and okish such a thread by another user I would still believe that based on pattern alone it was aimed directly at trolling for adverse reaction and not a thread intended for anything close to good faith discussion so I am unilling to accept this as being anything but a troll thread. Next up would then be do we allow such threads as non-RD. Now this ties in with the rather shaky definition we have regarding non-RD distinction and is something that I guess needs fleshing out again. But that is not a discussion for here. Though downthread metatron basically admits it was manned as Canada bahing and I have no qualms with interpretation of the OP alone as such. Personally I think good faith discussion on any single point made should be acceptable but that does not been that non-good faith posting of basically all about "Canada's national symbolism sucks" is also allowed. I vote to uphold.
 
Metatron makes fairly clear that he's intending to troll Canadians. In post #10, he effectively agrees to Hehehe's comment that the thread exists for bashing Canada.

Granted the nation-bashing is fairly mild. If he did not have a pattern of making posts like this one, had not admitted to nation-bashing, and was merely intending to make light-hearted fun of the country, it would probably be permissible at least in a non-RD thread. As it is, while I'm a little sympathetic to Cami's reasoning, I can't quite avoid seeing this as a mild troll thread.

I vote to uphold.
 
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