[BTS] Middle-earth Mod 0.4.1

[c13Garrison]

Given I have the time and opportunity now, I'll go ahead and write out some more evolved thoughts about a Civ IV Middle Earth mod.

Firstly, to consider the usual run of play of a game of Civ. The savvy player, either through diplomacy or dint of bold action, will by mid-game have a state which occupies 20% of the available map. They will have a sound industrial base, and be able to crank-out and deploy significantly large armies. This is good for the player, and good for the game, but not necessarily good for the genre.

A successful player (assuming the correlation is sound) could easily march to Mordor with a stack of 60-90 units in the mid-game range, to which the AI will typically have little reply. However, assaulting Mordor should be a task of monumental proportions, beyond a mere numbers game. The description of Gorgoroth is horrifying, and it is hardly possible for the civilized mind to imagine supplying an army on the march, let alone besieging a foe of great power in such a wasteland. It should be exceedingly difficult.

I would propose that the solution to representing this great difficulty could be as simple as the terrain. If the navigable terrain of Mordor were labeled something special, not desert, but perhaps "ash", then units could be assigned a positive or negative terrain penalty when functioning in such an environment. If Free People's forces had a -25% or -35% penalty when fighting on "ash" terrain, and Orcs of The Eye (or whatever non-human evil forces are present) perhaps get a +50% bonus on "ash" terrain, representing their proximity to Baradur, then the odds would be tipped for making Mordor extremely hard to conquer militarily. Similarly, you could give common orcs a negative modifier (say 10-20%) when fighting on Plain or Grassland as a way to represent their hatred of sunlight.

For the Free Peoples, perhaps this negative could be over-come in Mordor if a Great Person (Warlord, or what-have-you) were present wielding one of the Three, which rings have the power of nurturing and preserving.

Also, in the rare event that Mordor *is* conquered, if you used the Revolutions mod work set very high it would be perilously difficult for a good player to hold onto Mordor, and in fact they might just decide that its less painful to let it flip back to orc control rather than continually lose forces there- thus, simulating what really happened after Isildur's victory.

I'll let my brain mull over things until another point pops up seeking attention, but that's the one strong thought I have at the moment.

g

 

[topsecret]

Given I have the time and opportunity now, I'll go ahead and write out some more evolved thoughts about a Civ IV Middle Earth mod.

Firstly, to consider the usual run of play of a game of Civ. The savvy player, either through diplomacy or dint of bold action, will by mid-game have a state which occupies 20% of the available map. They will have a sound industrial base, and be able to crank-out and deploy significantly large armies. This is good for the player, and good for the game, but not necessarily good for the genre.

Exactly. However, I've thought about this extensively. Adding BTS Better AI will help increase the amount of power the AI has obtained. It won't guarantee the AI survives, but it helps make it more of a challenge.

A successful player (assuming the correlation is sound) could easily march to Mordor with a stack of 60-90 units in the mid-game range, to which the AI will typically have little reply. However, assaulting Mordor should be a task of monumental proportions, beyond a mere numbers game. The description of Gorgoroth is horrifying, and it is hardly possible for the civilized mind to imagine supplying an army on the march, let alone besieging a foe of great power in such a wasteland. It should be exceedingly difficult.

I would propose that the solution to representing this great difficulty could be as simple as the terrain. If the navigable terrain of Mordor were labeled something special, not desert, but perhaps "ash", then units could be assigned a positive or negative terrain penalty when functioning in such an environment. If Free People's forces had a -25% or -35% penalty when fighting on "ash" terrain, and Orcs of The Eye (or whatever non-human evil forces are present) perhaps get a +50% bonus on "ash" terrain, representing their proximity to Baradur, then the odds would be tipped for making Mordor extremely hard to conquer militarily. Similarly, you could give common orcs a negative modifier (say 10-20%) when fighting on Plain or Grassland as a way to represent their hatred of sunlight.

I already have been working on this. Mordor is not covered in desert, but a new Terrain called "Wasteland." (See pics of elves for example.) This terrain provides nothing but one hammer to all civilizations save Mordor, who gets +2 food on each wasteland tile. You've given me an idea. Perhaps all of Mordor's units could receive a free promotion called "Vile" or something similar. This would give +50% on Wasteland, which would greatly aid Mordor in defense. Also, 50% for every unit would be strong enough to repel very large forces, especially with the Better AI.

For the Free Peoples, perhaps this negative could be over-come in Mordor if a Great Person (Warlord, or what-have-you) were present wielding one of the Three, which rings have the power of nurturing and preserving.

Hmm, yes, or perhaps simply a "hero" units. I was planning on adding special hero units acquirable at different points for certain civilizations. For example, during the Third Age, Gondor would receive Faramir, and during the Second Age, Rivendell would get Elrond.

Also, in the rare event that Mordor *is* conquered, if you used the Revolutions mod work set very high it would be perilously difficult for a good player to hold onto Mordor, and in fact they might just decide that its less painful to let it flip back to orc control rather than continually lose forces there- thus, simulating what really happened after Isildur's victory.

I like this idea, but I'll have to work more on learning Python/C++ before I can really make it work...

I'll let my brain mull over things until another point pops up seeking attention, but that's the one strong thought I have at the moment.

g

Thanks for the input. You've given me more ideas, which I'll be working on eventually, though not all in the alpha release.

 

[Horatius]

Why not use K-Mod?

Btw, if there's going to be only 2 religions, then they probably should not affect diplo. I guess. I mean, I can easily see the AIs love each other all game or simply end up divided into 2 dull blocks...

A somewhat original idea, since you're introducing the concepts of regions, is to make each region have its own particular religious benefits, a polytheistic approach.

 

[topsecret]

Why not use K-Mod?

I don't know; K-Mod doesn't just change the AI, it changes other things too, and merging it now would be a headache. The BBAI Mod only changes AI, which is just what I wanted.

Btw, if there's going to be only 2 religions, then they probably should not affect diplo. I guess. I mean, I can easily see the AIs love each other all game or simply end up divided into 2 dull blocks...

Good point. However, I do want the evil civilizations to be mostly united, and make the Free Peoples to have to spend time convincing their neighbors to help them. It seems more in line with the general idea, although I liked Garrison's idea of a way to spend a GP to gain diplo points. I'll have to work out the details, but I agree, no diplomatic bonus for religion.

A somewhat original idea, since you're introducing the concepts of regions, is to make each region have its own particular religious benefits, a polytheistic approach.

I'm actually wanting to downplay religions; but certain places in Middle-earth did have culture based on the belief system.
I would not term it polytheistic though. Even if (like in Aman) the cultures were dedicated to different Valar, they were not when they went to Middle-earth. The Valar became less and less involved personally, and more distant. However, worship of either Eru or Melkor continued in Middle-earth, at the Temple, Meneltarma, the Hill of Awe, etc.
So, perhaps natural wonders would work better, such as the Falls of Rauros giving a bonus in culture, or such.

I don't want to make the mod so complicated though, that you lose the idea of Civ. It's a hard balance...

 

[c13Garrison]

@Top

I think 'Vile' is an excellent name for such a promotion. I'm pleased an idea of mine has found (unfertile) ground. :]

Good luck! I'll keep tabs on the forum, and offer other suggestions as I perceive they may be useful.

@Horatius

Or, perhaps not polytheistic religions, but different "schools" of the same religions, named for their region of origin.

 

[topsecret]

Or, perhaps not polytheistic religions, but different "schools" of the same religions, named for their region of origin.

Exactly. I can't remember where, but somewhere Tolkien wrote about the Rohirrim and their worship of Eru. And, for example, Sauron (IIRC) in the Silmarillion was mentioned as being worship in the South and East.

 

[Horatius]

"Polytheistic" was just an expression. After all, the saga is based on polytheistic mitologies. I said polytheistic because polytheistic religions were like that: villages, etc had their particular myths and traditions that other villages did not although there were many points in common that defined the culture that united them. It was a much more diversified and tolerant world than ours. But never mind that.

K-mod is basically a DLL, not much more besides a couple of changes to some XML tags, but, of course, its up to you. I'm just making suggestions. If you need any help with coding fancy stuff, I don't mind trying to help.

 

[topsecret]

"Polytheistic" was just an expression. After all, the saga is based on polytheistic mitologies. I said polytheistic because polytheistic religions were like that: villages, etc had their particular myths and traditions that other villages did not although there were many points in common that defined the culture that united them. It was a much more diversified and tolerant world than ours. But never mind that.

I get your point now. Perhaps I misunderstood before. Do you have any examples and how they would relate to gameplay? For example, I know that the Rohirrim and Gondorians each had different legends about Hobbits, Ents, etc.

K-mod is basically a DLL, not much more besides a couple of changes to some XML tags, but, of course, its up to you. I'm just making suggestions. If you need any help with coding fancy stuff, I don't mind trying to help.

Hmm, I might be able to merge it. Depends on the extent of the changes, which I haven't looked into.
Speaking of coding, I do need help with regions, because I have no idea how to get what I want done accomplished. Here's the idea:
Have an XML file (name Civ4RegionInfos or something) that lets you make as many regions as you want. It would have tags like this:

		<RegionInfo>
			<Type>REGION_MORDOR</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_REGION_MORDOR</Description>
			<iCityControlThreshold>3</iCityControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityCityThreshold>0</bMajorityCityThreshold>
			<iCultureControlThreshold>0</iCultureControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityCultureThreshold>0</bMajorityCultureThreshold>
			<iUnitControlThreshold>0</iUnitControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityUnitThreshold>0</bMajorityUnitThreshold>
			<bTotalControl>0</bTotalControl>
			<DefaultCivilization>CIVILIZATION_MORDOR</DefaultCivilization>
			<FreeCulture>0</FreeCulture>
			<FreeHappiness>0</FreeHappiness>
			<FreeHealth>0</FreeHealth>
			<RequiredForVictory/>
			....
		</RegionInfo>

And so on. There's more stuff regions can do.
You can add this to the Worldbuilder file:
RegionType = REGION_MORDOR

And then have different maps with different regions. The whole mod would be adaptable to different mods, and for any map. You could even base it on BBAI or K-Mod, so it would already be included.

Is this way too ambitious (or even possible)? If so, it'll have to wait until I can learn how to do it.

 

[lfgr]

Speaking of coding, I do need help with regions, because I have no idea how to get what I want done accomplished. Here's the idea:
Have an XML file (name Civ4RegionInfos or something) that lets you make as many regions as you want. It would have tags like this:

		<RegionInfo>
			<Type>REGION_MORDOR</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_REGION_MORDOR</Description>
			<iCityControlThreshold>3</iCityControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityCityThreshold>0</bMajorityCityThreshold>
			<iCultureControlThreshold>0</iCultureControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityCultureThreshold>0</bMajorityCultureThreshold>
			<iUnitControlThreshold>0</iUnitControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityUnitThreshold>0</bMajorityUnitThreshold>
			<bTotalControl>0</bTotalControl>
			<DefaultCivilization>CIVILIZATION_MORDOR</DefaultCivilization>
			<FreeCulture>0</FreeCulture>
			<FreeHappiness>0</FreeHappiness>
			<FreeHealth>0</FreeHealth>
			<RequiredForVictory/>
			....
		</RegionInfo>

And so on. There's more stuff regions can do.
You can add this to the Worldbuilder file:
RegionType = REGION_MORDOR

And then have different maps with different regions. The whole mod would be adaptable to different mods, and for any map. You could even base it on BBAI or K-Mod, so it would already be included.

Is this way too ambitious (or even possible)? If so, it'll have to wait until I can learn how to do it.

It's possible (except for the worldbuilder thing, see below). There are just multiple ways to accomplish that. I actually did something similar some time ago; I used such regions to make civilizations change their name according to their position and extend (see here. Sadly I lost half of the code I forgot to upload).
I did it purely in python. The cleaner way would be to do it in the DLL, and this is not as hard as it may seem (implementing the functionality for all those tags will be harder). I could help you with this (but you should be at least able to compile your own DLL).

You can't really add new properties to a WBS file, because it's read by the exe, but you can use the ScriptData property to store your own (e.g. "ScriptData=REGION_MORDOR"). Wrong, see God-Emperor's post.

BTW, looks quite cool and interesting . Didn't you already start a mod about Rohan some time ago?

 

[c13Garrison]

Nope, that's all Greek to me- my usefulness has just evaporated!

 

[God-Emperor]

You can't really add new properties to a WBS file, because it's read by the exe, but you can use the ScriptData property to store your own (e.g. "ScriptData=REGION_MORDOR").

Actually, WB saves are written and read by Python. The CvWBDesc.py file in the Python/pyWB folder is where it is done. Final Frontier Plus has added planet data directly to the worldbuilder saves, for example. It is not stored in script data.

 

[lfgr]

Actually, WB saves are written and read by Python. The CvWBDesc.py file in the Python/pyWB folder is where it is done. Final Frontier Plus has added planet data directly to the worldbuilder saves, for example. It is not stored in script data.

Really? Thanks for the correction. I remember searching for hours in the sdk. Probably should have asked earlier .

 

[Horatius]

		<RegionInfo>
			<Type>REGION_MORDOR</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_REGION_MORDOR</Description>
			<iCityControlThreshold>3</iCityControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityCityThreshold>0</bMajorityCityThreshold>
			<iCultureControlThreshold>0</iCultureControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityCultureThreshold>0</bMajorityCultureThreshold>
			<iUnitControlThreshold>0</iUnitControlThreshold>
			<bMajorityUnitThreshold>0</bMajorityUnitThreshold>
			<bTotalControl>0</bTotalControl>
			<DefaultCivilization>CIVILIZATION_MORDOR</DefaultCivilization>
			<FreeCulture>0</FreeCulture>
			<FreeHappiness>0</FreeHappiness>
			<FreeHealth>0</FreeHealth>
			<RequiredForVictory/>
			....
		</RegionInfo>

Interesting. I understand the idead behind the last tags, but I'm not sure about what you have in mind regarding the first ones.

Btw, Ifgr, how would you define regions? WIth Area ID, Civ's culture, City radius? I'm probably missing something or thinking wrongly about it.

 

[lfgr]

Interesting. I understand the idead behind the last tags, but I'm not sure about what you have in mind regarding the first ones.

Btw, Ifgr, how would you define regions? WIth Area ID, Civ's culture, City radius? I'm probably missing something or thinking wrongly about it.

Adding a new InfoType for Regions (like FFH added SpellInfos), and adding a new "region" property to plot. At least I think this is what topsecret meant. But it's probably also not a bad idea to have each region it's own area.

Yeah, and I'm also curious what you mean exactly with the first tags. Do you have a concept of "controlling" a region?

 

[topsecret]

OK, the idea was to assign each plot a "RegionType". All plots that have that type are part of that region. Or something like that, I've never delved into Civ4 Python or SDK to know how it works.

Having control over a region means you get any bonuses or victory conditions that region gives.
Here's what I was thinking about each tag:

		<RegionInfo>
			<Type>REGION_MORDOR</Type> [b]Name of the region for the game files.[/b]

			<Description>TXT_KEY_REGION_MORDOR</Description> [b]Name in-game[/b]

			<iCityControlThreshold>3</iCityControlThreshold> [b]How many cities a civilization has to have in a region to have contol over it. In case of a tie, the first player to this many keeps control.[/b]

			<bMajorityCityThreshold>0</bMajorityCityThreshold> [B]The player with the most cities will control the region. Could also be used in <iCityControlThreshold> as a -1 value.[/B]

			<iCultureControlThreshold>0</iCultureControlThreshold> [b]How many plots a civilization has to own in a region to have contol over it. In case of a tie, the first player to this many keeps control.[/b]

			<bMajorityCultureThreshold>0</bMajorityCultureThreshold> [B]The player with the most plots owned will control the region. Could also be used in <iCultureControlThreshold> as a -1 value.[/B]

			<iUnitControlThreshold>0</iUnitControlThreshold> [b]How many plots a civilization has to have stationed in a region to have contol over it. In case of a tie, the first player to this many keeps control.[/b]

			<bMajorityUnitThreshold>0</bMajorityUnitThreshold> [B]The player with the most units will control the region. Could also be used in <iUnitControlThreshold> as a -1 value.[/B]

			<bTotalControl>0</bTotalControl> [B]The player must obtain every plot, city, and no enemy units must be here to control this region.[/B]

			<DefaultCivilization>CIVILIZATION_MORDOR</DefaultCivilization> [B]The civilization that starts with this region in their control.[/B]

			<FreeCulture>0</FreeCulture> [B]The civilization that controls this region gets this much culture in each city.[/B]

			<FreeHappiness>0</FreeHappiness> [B]The civilization that controls this region gets this much happiness in each city.[/B]

			<FreeHealth>0</FreeHealth> [B]The civilization that controls this region gets this much health in each city.[/B]

			<RequiredForVictory/> [B]Control of this region is required for this VictoryType.[/B]

			....
		</RegionInfo>

And so on. More things could be added, of course.

 

[topsecret]

Working on the buildings, almost done.
In the mean time, I would love some suggestions about my wonders. I've got a substantial list, but I need some ideas for effects. Preferably some non-standard ones, instead of just copying all the normal ones. So here's a list:

• Elostirion
• Black Gate
• Amon Hen
• Amon Lhaw
• Argonath
• Tomb of Elendil
• Mathom-house
• The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
• Chamber of Mazarbul
• Sammath Naur
• Doors of Durin
• Endless Stair
• Stone of Erech
• Rath Dinen
• Dimholt
• Gate of the City
• The Green Dragon
• Hall of Fire
• The Hedge
• Amon Sûl
• Tower of Ecthelion
• Tower of Cirith Ungol
• Durin's Stone
• White Stone of Umbar
• Pûkel-men
• Three-farthing Stone
• Durthang
• Dome of the Stars
• Great Smials
• Two Watchers
• Orthanc
• Tower of Barad-dûr
• Hornburg Fortress
• Fortress of Dol Guldur

Any ideas are welcome!

 

[c13Garrison]

How about the Beornings, some type of + to food due to their baking abilities? -and also a +$ for their tariffs. Though, I'm not sure if it would make sense to have the Beornings anywhere but along the River in the Wild, but then again the rest of the wonders you list above would suffer the same issue. So, if the decision has been made to allow Great Wonders to be built by any people in any place, then adding the Beornings might be a fine idea.

Have you decided anyThing may be built anyWhere, or are wonders somehow allowed by region?

 

[topsecret]

How about the Beornings, some type of + to food due to their baking abilities? -and also a +$ for their tariffs. Though, I'm not sure if it would make sense to have the Beornings anywhere but along the River in the Wild, but then again the rest of the wonders you list above would suffer the same issue. So, if the decision has been made to allow Great Wonders to be built by any people in any place, then adding the Beornings might be a fine idea.

Beornings... I'm going add them later. I'm going to release more and more civilizations as the mod grows, but right now I've got my core 17.
In fact, I've actually got a whole list of new civilizations I'll be adding later. We'll keep the rest a surprise for now.

Have you decided anyThing may be built anyWhere, or are wonders somehow allowed by region?

Wonders can be built anywhere. If wonders were allowed by region, it would force the player into a too hard "track". This is Civilization, after all. The Japanese can build the Pyramids and Persia can build the Statue of Liberty!

Seriously though, I want this to still feel like Civilization. Giving the player an advantage for copying their Civ's history is fine, but I want to allow them the normal freedom of any game of Civilization.

*Don't worry, only Sauron can make the One Ring though.

 

[c13Garrison]

Gottcha. :] I was thinking of adding the Beornings as something like, "Beorn's House", which would be a wonder that added some food & coin bonus, but the Men that dwelt in the upper vales of the Great River would do well to be represented.

And as far as asking for input on what bonuses your wonders would provide, I could certainly run off an opinion on your whole list, but it seems somewhat self-aggrandizing to do so. Still, aside from Coin, Culture, Food, Work, & Espionage, there's a wide plethora of bonuses that could be provided. Erech could allow you to summon troops for instance, like the in-game random event which gives you Horsemen if you capture the source of iron. You'd just have to decide if the stone "re-sets" after some period of time, or if you could only 'collect' the forces once.

 

[topsecret]

Gottcha. :] I was thinking of adding the Beornings as something like, "Beorn's House", which would be a wonder that added some food & coin bonus, but the Men that dwelt in the upper vales of the Great River would do well to be represented.

Oh! I didn't actually get that. That's a good idea though!

I've thought about allowing players to download modules that allow additional civs. That way you could just get the base mod, or expand it to your liking.