Military unit building help for noob

[the_ref]

Hi everybody - first post on the forum!

I was looking for some help about how many units to build.

Basically, I've been playing a few games on noble, and although I often think I'm doing quite well (in terms of decent cities and tech), I always end losing.

I've been through a lot of the useful guides in here, and know that my problem is that I just don't build enough military units - from comments I've read, it looks like the AI sees you're weak, and goes for you.

I'd really like a rough guide of how many units you should have kicking about at any one time. I've been playing on epic, and it takes ages to build units, so I only usually have a unit or 2 per city, so I get wiped out pretty easily.

even when I start a game thinking about building more military, I inevitably get caught up building settlers/workers, and making some nice cities.

so would be great if someone could tell me a good rule of thumb for being militarily weak (I sometimes check the demographics, and I'm consistently the weakest or 2nd weakest on that!!).

 

[Nestorius]

Usually, I'll keep placeholder units in my inner cities to keep them happy, and then army-attack-defense stacks in the border cities. You basically have to look at your neighbors civ, ascertain what kind of stack they could throw out at you, and build an army that can defeat or at least defend against it. Usually I'm very weak until my first war, then end up building enough units during that war to deter the AI from every attacking me again (making a boring late-game).

 

[Sisiutil]

The good thing about building up an offensive force is that most of those units can, in a pinch, turn around and be used on defense as well. Especially in an emergency--like Alexander showing up on your doorstep with a whoppin' big pile of Axes, Chariots, and Phalanxes.

One of the best units you can have in your border cities are Catapults (and later, other siege units). You can use them to attack and weaken several units in an attacking stack.

 

[the_ref]

Usually, I'll keep placeholder units in my inner cities to keep them happy, and then army-attack-defense stacks in the border cities. You basically have to look at your neighbors civ, ascertain what kind of stack they could throw out at you, and build an army that can defeat or at least defend against it. Usually I'm very weak until my first war, then end up building enough units during that war to deter the AI from every attacking me again (making a boring late-game).

so typically how many units would you have an attack/defense/stack. Would the idea be to just mix it so a couple of axeman/spearman/catapult?

And how can I tell what kind of stack someone could throw at me - I think I misjudge that, because I see an empire about the same size as me, at roughly the same tech, so just presume that they must have about the same number of units - is there any way to get an idea of how big a force they could produce?

 

[the_ref]

The good thing about building up an offensive force is that most of those units can, in a pinch, turn around and be used on defense as well. Especially in an emergency--like Alexander showing up on your doorstep with a whoppin' big pile of Axes, Chariots, and Phalanxes.

One of the best units you can have in your border cities are Catapults (and later, other siege units). You can use them to attack and weaken several units in an attacking stack.

If i have a catapult, do I actively use it to attack units sitting just outside the city? Or do i wait for it to be attacked, and let it damage other units in the stack?

presumably if I use it to attack, it'll likely lose, and I'll need ot have a decent unit to follow up the attack with?

 

[UncleJJ]

so typically how many units would you have an attack/defense/stack. Would the idea be to just mix it so a couple of axeman/spearman/catapult?

That will depend on the strength of the defence, which is the number and type of defenders and their promotions and how easy the city is to defend (hills, river and % defence). You need to have enough troops to defeat the defenders in one attack (even with a bit of bad luck) and then hold the city against the likely counterattack. So a city defended by 2 archers can be taken with 4 axemen. But if you were unlucky you might lose 2 axemen and have the 2 winning axemen both wounded and very vulnerable to a counterattack. It would probably be better to send a stack of 6 or 8 units to take the city with the undamaged units able to defend the city immediately and allow the wounded troops to heal.

And how can I tell what kind of stack someone could throw at me - I think I misjudge that, because I see an empire about the same size as me, at roughly the same tech, so just presume that they must have about the same number of units - is there any way to get an idea of how big a force they could produce?

In the late game you can get a spy or overfly their territory with an aircraft. In earlier ages one of the great advantages of having a Holy city, making that religion your state religion and then spreading that religion the other civ's cities is it lets you inspect their troops in and near those cities.

If you can't do that just send scouts into their lands (if they allow open borders) before attacking them. Otherwise you have to just make an informed guess based on the power graph. Also take note of whether they have key resources such as iron and horses on the trade screen or on the map.

 

[Andorim]

You've got the right idea - checking the demographics. Keep checking the power graph and the # of soldiers demographic -- every ten turns or so. If you are positioned in the bottom half of the graph, you don't have nearly enough units.

Many players dedicate (at least) one city to produce nothing but military.

There isn't a simple answer to "how many?" because it depends on your neighbours. The demographics will show where you stand realtive to your neighbours.

 

[Sisiutil]

If i have a catapult, do I actively use it to attack units sitting just outside the city? Or do i wait for it to be attacked, and let it damage other units in the stack?

presumably if I use it to attack, it'll likely lose, and I'll need ot have a decent unit to follow up the attack with?

AFAIK, Catapults only cause collateral damage to other units when they attack, not when they defend. The idea is to use the catapult to weaken the attacking stack of units by throwing it at them. If you have enough units in the city to take out the stack, then do so; otherwise, hunker down and let the wounded, weakened units attack your fortified city defenders.

Sometimes, if I've wounded the stack enough, the AI's attack stalls--it sits its units outside my city, waiting for them to heal, before attempting to attack again. This may give you precious time to bring up reinforcements, heal your own units, and/or complete a fortification like a wall.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I was looking for some help about how many units to build.

A couple of suggestions.

1) Play a game where you use the Hereditary Rule civic throughout the game, and use only military units for happiness. There's more to Monarchy than wineries.

2) Play a game where your goal is to eliminate a rival civ as quickly as you can.

3) Turn on Raging Barbarians

4) Turn on Always War

5) if none of those work, turn on Always Peace

 

[patagonia]

To add to what's been said here:

Whether you're attacking or defending, you can never have too many catapults. Well, not unless the unit maintenance is dragging your ecomony into the toilet.

They always come in handy when you're warring.

 

[Andorim]

... you can never have too many catapults.

I seldom see a piece of advice that is so fundamental, and clear, and concise. I think it is worthy of being added to the opening hints (land war in Asia, snacks in moderation, etc).

 

[aelf]

After you have a certain number, units cost money per turn. So if you do build a lot of them, make sure they're not sitting around and getting paid for it. I usually have relatively up-to-date units in my cities as garrison, but I seldom have more than 2 or 3 per city. Inner cities have 1 each. The only other units I have are the attacking units, leftover CR troops from earlier wars. If I want to attack someone, I usually plan ahead and build more units for that, using them when the time comes. Other than that, I rely on diplomacy to keep myself safe.

 

[Chipacabra]

After you have a certain number, units cost money per turn. So if you do build a lot of them, make sure they're not sitting around and getting paid for it. I usually have relatively up-to-date units in my cities as garrison, but I seldom have more than 2 or 3 per city. Inner cities have 1 each. The only other units I have are the attacking units, leftover CR troops from earlier wars. If I want to attack someone, I usually plan ahead and build more units for that, using them when the time comes. Other than that, I rely on diplomacy to keep myself safe.

I mostly do the same thing, unless I'm running Hereditary Rule and trying to grow my cities. Even then, you want just enough troops to get the happiness level you need, and no more.

Lately, I've been practicing my warmongering, so most of the time I just build and build troops, forming them into nice little warstacks. When I get so many that maintenence is a problem, the obvious solution is to send them off to fight!

 

[Bradlius]

Lately, I've been practicing my warmongering, so most of the time I just build and build troops, forming them into nice little warstacks. When I get so many that maintenence is a problem, the obvious solution is to send them off to fight!

Wow, US foreign policy in a nutshell! I think it was Albert Einstein who said, You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.

 

[Bradlius]

I agree with many of the comments above. Specifically, up thru the Medieval Era, I usually keep a ranged unit (archer, longbowman), an anti-mounted unit (spearman, phalanx, pikeman), a sortie unit (horse archer, knight) and a catapult in each border or seaside city, for defense. In my inner cities, I keep just enough ranged units (one to three) to keep each city happy under Hereditary Rule. In addition, I keep an offensive stack near the borders of each potentially hostile civ. An offensive stack includes several catapults, some archers/spearman for defense, some mounted units for scouting the road ahead, and several swordsmen/macemen for citybusting. The archers/spearmen do double duty, providing defense for the stack while it's moving in enemy territory and then providing the garrison for the cities I conquer.
My style of play is more peacable than most, maybe, but I like to at least be able to defend my civ and sometimes to weaken a neighbor if he or she proves to be particularly nasty. That said, I usually don't win by Conquest, but I almost always win one way or another (Space Race, Diplo) on Noble.

 

[ShannonCT]

Wow, US foreign policy in a nutshell! I think it was Albert Einstein who said, You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.

Yeah, so did Neville Chamberlin. History looks none to kindly on him.

 

[carl corey]

I play (and now always win) on Prince and just started a game on Monarch. I never have big city defenses. One of warrior, archer, chariot, longbowman per city and that's it unless I'm running Hereditary Rule for happiness.

On the other hand I try to keep an offensive force in one city, that can be launched at the enemy at any time. I found out that if you're pretty high on the power graph the AIs won't attack you even if the cities that are close to him aren't heavily defended. So I choose my victim and start building units and moving them toward its border.

As for numbers, I think in terms of cities I want to attack. Am I going for only two cities to cripple the opponent/get a resource? Or am I going for a really long war to eliminate that AI? Knowing what resources the AI has and what units it can build is of great importance. What's the use of building spearman if he has no horses? In the early game promote a couple of axes with Combat & Shock to guard from enemy axes, 5-6 axes with City Raider, bring a Medic (or a Combat I going for Medic), maybe a couple of chariots for suiciding purposes and you can go to war. Add 2-3 spearman if the enemy has chariots, more if you fight against Cyrus's Immortals or the Egyptian War Charriots. On Noble you'll be able to keep many of the cities you conquer, so bring in some city garrisons with you. Work your way through swordsmen (City Raider promotions), catapults (if you can have Accuracy, take it), macemen, etc. Integrate your unique unit in there and watch out for going to war against a unique unit.

I don't build the military units until their maintenance is begging for war. I prepare for war. Big difference. That usually means that at one point I switch to war civics (Theocracy, Slavery, maybe Vassalage/Nationhood, also maybe Police State) and start producing units from all my cities. I'm usually careful to have the cities quite big at that point and ready to use the whip. In 15-20 turns on normal I have my new additions to the army (2-3 units from each city, more from the Heroic Epic one), stack them and start the attack. This also keeps me from thinking: oh, and I need a library, and why not a university, and oh, forgot to build a courthouse. NO! I'm going to war, I need units for it. Buildings can come later.

I usually don't build many units while in a war, unless something goes really wrong, or some pillagers slip in. I'm still benefiting from my roads so it's likely I'll have a city from which to whip within range of the pillager. The AI isn't very good at counter-attacking while its cities are being taken. That's why while I'm at war I change back the civics. Preparing for building infrastructure quickly in the new cities means Slavery stays. Theocracy is of no use anymore: one more promotion for a unit that will only defend here and there against a pillager isn't very useful. Bureaucracy is a no-brainer if you don't have Free Speech already.

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As VoiceOfUnreason said, you might want to change some settings/add some conditions that will help you develop in the military area. Other suggestions than his might be to turn off all victory conditions except Domination and Conquest, then force yourself to go after the AIs. Or have a rule saying you can't build any world wonders. I've done it on Prince and it's fun. You have way more time to focus on units this way. In that case you won't get many Great Persons, so being Philosophical is pretty useless. The best traits would be Aggressive, Organized or Financial (to support your empire), Spiritual (so you can make full use of the civic changes). Try playing with Julius, Toku, Cyrus, Hatty. And have fun.

 

[svv]

The other thing is that, if you're in slavery, one or two defending units in each city should be enough. If you get a surprise enemy attack with a big stack, you can always whip out the extra units you'll need.

 

[the_ref]

great tips, guys, many thanks.

Tried to put some into practice yesterday - had much better luck at warfare, but came a cropper when I ended up taking cities too far away, and had a huge maintenance bill, and my research starting failling behind a bit.

but definitely better militarily.

I like the idea of having a decent stack near potentially hostile borders. This has also been one of my big problems where I defend my cities well, but somebody wanders in, tears up all my improvements, and don't really have anything to chase him away with.

 

[cabert]

beware!
In warlords, you cannot completely rely on offensive stacks.
The AI seems to notice how many units you're using against another AI, and dogpile on you when your units are fare away.

I learned it the hard way (as always )