"Missing" Leader pet peeves

[MobBoss]

But still, my point stands, the government is not 100% democratically elected, there were far too many circumstances that allowed a proper democratic election, which lead to the mass boycot of the election by the sunni's

.

Uhm, pretty sure their current government and constitution WERE voted on and "democratically" elected. And the Sunni's sure as hell voted on the constitution, hell they almost voted it out.

"Who would be half the weaker without some of the US' great deeds (prison scandals, the "reason" for the war).. If you guys had done a better job with a few key issues, like the justification of the war, maybe waiting for the UN to back you up, things would (with a 90% certainty) be a lot more quiet. It is, in essence, a stew the US cooked up."

Yeah, we have seen just how effective the UN is. How long did Saddam profit from "oil for food" and thumb his nose at the UN?

"

Use your eyes. Read/watch news other than the ones syndicated in the states. And as for the comment, ever been in the military? You should try, see what they teach you there about civilians."

I am in the military....19 years this December in the US Army. They teach us that civilians are our bosses...we work for them and protect them and their right to speak.

"

But it does apply to civilians. It applies to all. Thats what the text itself says, and I admit, that even though the terrorists and/or insurgents are not doing anything acceptable, the prison scandals you have violate the geneva convention any way. Heres a snippet."

Actually, you need to read further. The snippet you provided deals with non-combatants - NOT with combatants not in uniform. It plainly says NON-COMBATANTS should not be tortured, etc. etc. Combatants not in uniform can be treated as spys and dealt with (executed) by military tribunal. Lets get one thing straight - those folks in Abu Grahieb were not non-combatants. They were not innocent bystanders. And those people who exceeded their mandate in that prison have been tried and put in prison for their deeds. End of story.

So bombing schools and hospitals and saying oops, we thought it was a base, is ok. I'm not saying that that the US strikes schools and hopsitals, but they sure as hell aren't making sure what they are bombing. In addition to taking absolutely no responsibility

.

If that school or hospital is also an ammo dump and/or safehouse for insurgents damn right its ok to bomb it. And please comment on what you know, not what you guess at. Each and every strike mission in Iraq has to go through a process to ensure it meets the criteria as a valid target. Practically every military unit there has an attorney (JAG officer) to oversee the targeting process to ensure that the target meets the rules of engagement (RoE). As for responsibility, yes, we do take responsibitity for our mistakes. Claims against the US for our mistakes are being taken in Iraq for property and personal loss....and we pay for damages that we are responsible for when a mistake happens.

Perhaps its you that need to listen to more than your left wingnut anti-us news source.

 

[MattJek]

Puting stalin would have been as bad as putting hitler. I hate it when people have no ideas what kind of atrocities he commited (caused more deaths than hitler too).
.

Yeah, well.... I still miss him too.

 

[MobBoss]

I will parallel with our beloved game. The one part of the Civ series I feel they accurately reflected in history were the differences between governments for the people vs. governments for the elite and how they affected the player. Either your nation will prosper together and no one will have too much power over another, or your nation will prosper unevenly and wealth will be distributed in favor of the ruling elite. I think they have done the best in Civ 4 to show this stark contrast. In order for you as the leader to do anything for personal gain (like war for any other purpose but defense), you would have to switch to a tyrannical form of government to be the most successful. This is consistent throughout history.

Disagree totally. There are plenty of ways to mitigate war weariness in the game and still wage war successfully. Btw, were the U.S. and Britain "tryannical" during WWII? "boggle"

"The general (most effective) path to absolute power is republic (citizens protected, public or common law) then democracy (commercial/economy protected, private law becomes public law, like car insurance laws) then finally fascism/communism (ruling party protected, they are above all laws). Domineering nations always seem to follow this model. Rome followed this exact model."

Rome was a democracy and then a communist state? Oh, boy we got a live one here.

"

Now, let's take current events. Our consitution is being steamed rolled over by our growing tyrannical federal government (see novel 1984 for a fictional, but yet interesting revelation on the matter). According to the patriot act, basically any pro-constitutional activists (right to bear arms which is currently in the works to be taken away) can be labeled a terrorists

."

Uh. How is our right to bear arms being taken away and our constitution being steamrolled? Perhaps you need to come down off that mountain in Idaho?

"but it is always strange how throughout history the tables always get turned on the little freedom loving guy (you and me). "

So your just a little freedom loving guy. Tell me, in your own personal words, how your freedom has been taken away by our current administration?

"About this war we are fighting: it's a sham, and I feel extra comfortable saying this as I am in the military

.

You are entitled to your beliefs..I too am in the military and I dont think its a sham...oh..I feel extra comfortable saying that as well.

I promised to protect the constitution (which is currently being raped), not a bunch of selfish rich bureaucrats on capitol hill.

Wrong. If you are truly in the military then you realize that yes, you have promised to protect those bureaucrats, just as well as the anti-war wingnuts and everyone in between. You dont get to pick and choose. You gave up that right by volunteering.

"

I can't find the name of the senator, but I am sure you can find the video somewhere on the internet. This senator said a day AFTER 9/11 that Bush will use this as a pretext for war against Iraq. Nazi Germany did the same thing blowing up their own buildings and blamed it on "terrorists" as a pretext for war. People start questioning, and the elite don't like that. "

So now Bush was behind 9/11? Why is it that wing-nuts like this can never remember their source, but say "oh you can find it easy". Well bubba, go find it and post us a link.

"The federal government needs to go. Give me liberty or give me death, and the scarey part is our government wouldn't think twice about doing the latter..."

And with that you show your true colors. I highly doubt that you are in the military at all. You dont seem to understand that protecting the government and the constitution are mutually exclusive...you cant have one without the other.

 

[Thedrin]

Hitler as the German leader over Bismarck?

My knowledge of German history is non existant prior to the late 1860s (and could be called into question after that date as well) so I can't speak about Frederick but I believe that Bismarck was the greatest German and fully deserves to be the German leader. Even if nobody objected to Hitler being the leader due to political correctness, Bismarck - the man who unified Germany - would still deserve his place.

 

[MattJek]

Um what the hell is all this crap on this thread and how does it have anything to do with civ4????

 

[golfnchew]

Just wanted to weigh in with my two cents concerning all this talk of terrorism.

To truly define words like "terrorist" and "traitor" beyond the vanilla definitions provided by Webster's is incredibly difficult. In the end, it all comes down to personal perspective, which is inherently biased.

History is written by the winners.

When my Malinese armies flood the randomly generated map, I have brought prosperity and happiness to the digital world. The Mongols, who have long been free of that world, were a knuckle-dragging, barbaric, neanderthal race that was lucky to share the earth with my people if only for a short while. Similarly, Julius Caesar, who also is no longer around, was an incompetent, backstabbing twit.

It's all about who wins. The founders of this great country (America) gained independence by subverting their government, often by any means necessary. They won, and now American residents refer to them reverently as "freedom fighters" and the "founding fathers."

Similarly, imagine the off-chance that the "terrorists" in Iraq prevailed and successfully established a government around their ideals. Sure, the possibility of that happening is about as likely as me bedding Angelina Jolie, but what if it did? All of a sudden, these men become "founding fathers" that successfully repelled the imperialistic American powers just as Washington and his buddies repelled the imperialistic English powers a couple centuries ago.

It's like Vince used to say, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."

You win, you write the rules.

 

[sturmtrupp]

Finally, an interesting possibility would be someone like Constantine. A christian leader would be a fun tie-in with the new religious aspect of the game.

Small little thing, Constanstine was not really Christrian. He was baptized on his death bed when he had little choice.

 

[sturmtrupp]

Hitler as the German leader over Bismarck?

My knowledge of German history is non existant prior to the late 1860s (and could be called into question after that date as well) so I can't speak about Frederick but I believe that Bismarck was the greatest German and fully deserves to be the German leader. Even if nobody objected to Hitler being the leader due to political correctness, Bismarck - the man who unified Germany - would still deserve his place.

I have to disagree, I believe that Fredrick the II was the greatest German leader. He managed to double the size the Brandenburg-Prussia and essentially create the foundation for Bismarck's unification a century later. Also he was a peoples king, fought three juggernauts simultaneously, mobilizing the army his father built, in the seven year war and became quite the diplomat. He is not called Great without reason.

 

[Andicus]

Judging from this thread, I think the game needs a civ called the "People's Democratik Republik of Kalifornia."

Leader choice of Ted Kennedy, Michael Moore, or Cindy Sheehan.

Only downside is all your cities go into unrest every time someone declares war on you.

 

[sturmtrupp]

Judging from this thread, I think the game needs a civ called the "People's Democratik Republik of Kalifornia."

Leader choice of Ted Kennedy, Michael Moore, or Cindy Sheehan.

Only downside is all your cities go into unrest every time someone declares war on you.

Exactly why I left California.

 

[Intruder13]

Now, come up with one good thing Hitler did (besides proving facism is bad). I doubt you could produce one.

The Autobahn. Lets not forget, Time Magazine, Man of the Year in 1938.

 

[Blutsbruder1905]

To come back to Hitler...

I´m - that´s for sure - not a fan/friend or whatever of Hitler. The whole thing he did was simply cruel and terrible, not a word to find something good during his political "career". But even regarding these facts, I would not feel offended if they put him in the game. I wouldn´t have to play him so I don´t have any big problem.

In between, that doesn´t mean that I don´t see the difficulties with this special person... but I think that many things ary simply taken TOO serious and/or personal.

 

[MobBoss]

The Autobahn. Lets not forget, Time Magazine, Man of the Year in 1938.

He was also reportedly very nice to his dog, Blondie. Go figure.

 

[Blutsbruder1905]

The Autobahn..., something great - no speed limits - but it was only finished while he ruled, it was started by an other german politician.

 

[Siggy19]

The DELIBERATE CALCULATED TARGETING OF INNOCENTS IS TERRORISM.

That's a perfectly reasonable definition and one that I generally agree with.

However, that potentially includes the Native Americans as Terrorists since they DID deliberately seek out non-military targets (because they were generally no match for regular troops in open battle due to limited technology and resources).

And it also omits things like the Nuclear Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki or the Carpet Bombing of Dresden which both killed far more 'innocents' than
combatants... but only by accident.

The point of this debate (IMHO) has been that the language used is largely determined by the winner. The Jewish militias before the creation of Israel are known as 'Freedom Fighters', while the Palestinians are called 'Terrorists'. George Washington owned Slaves and yet is reknowned as the 'Father of Liberty'. In the name of Jesus, the 'Lord of Peace', the Crusades were launched as was the Spanish Inquisition and the years of warfare between Catholics and Protestants.

Hitler re-established Germany as a World Power and came very close to conquering all of Europe. If he had not wasted so many resources trying to kill various groups of people, Germany would probably have won the second world war before the end of 1940.

Teddy Roosevelt had a very limited influence as a President, other than writing finis to the Spanish involvement in Latin America and establishing the first National Parks. FDR won the second world war and presided over the creation of the most powerful diplomatic body in world history. He also served double the terms of any other president and yet did not turn America into a one-party state or a dictatorship.

As for Washington vs Lincoln... One led the nation to victory in a revolutionary war and inspired a sense of nationhood. The other presided over the division and re-unity of the nation but left the world little changed as a direct result of his leadership. If the Confederacy had managed to secede, Slavery would still have vanished in time and the North would have thrived even more industrially. The South would have become like Indonesia, some oil and some tourism, but limited resources for coping with Natural Disasters and most of the wealth going into a very few pockets. Remember that California would have probably stayed in the Union.

 

[Blutsbruder1905]

I don´t believe that the waste of sources was Hitler´s biggest problem but the attack of Russia..., keeping in mind that he did advance much too far (forgetting???) the hard winters there.

 

[Siggy19]

I don´t believe that the waste of sources was Hitler´s biggest problem but the attack of Russia..., keeping in mind that he did advance much too far (forgetting???) the hard winters there.

It is not easy to actively kill 12 Million people... that's 12 million bullets, x many guards, trains, death camps etc etc etc. Without wasting resources killing them, Germany would probably have been able to finish the job in France and England before invading Russia. Fighting a single front would have been a totally different kettle of fish, especially since the Americans would have been less likely to help the Russians if the Brits were not still fighting.

Plus, imagine if Hitler had actually made use of the man-power and intelligence of the people he tried to kill... Heck, Germany would have had the Nuclear Bomb before Roosevelt ever heard the names of Einstein or Fermi. Germany would have had the first man on the moon by 1959 since the Russians and Americans both used the German Rocket Scientists for the Space Race.

 

[sturmtrupp]

It is not easy to actively kill 12 Million people... that's 12 million bullets, x many guards, trains, death camps etc etc etc. Without wasting resources killing them, Germany would probably have been able to finish the job in France and England before invading Russia. Fighting a single front would have been a totally different kettle of fish, especially since the Americans would have been less likely to help the Russians if the Brits were not still fighting.

Plus, imagine if Hitler had actually made use of the man-power and intelligence of the people he tried to kill... Heck, Germany would have had the Nuclear Bomb before Roosevelt ever heard the names of Einstein or Fermi. Germany would have had the first man on the moon by 1959 since the Russians and Americans both used the German Rocket Scientists for the Space Race.

How many resources would have been used keeping them alive. I think while Hitler had no love for the people he imprisoned, gassing them became an immoral logistical necessity. Who do you feed, soldiers or prisoners? And these are the things a losing leader needs to address early in 1942. Not to mention that I think a lot of the numbers are exaggerated, while Stalin's 30 million are probably very conservative.

And why was he a losing leader, because as the another poster mentioned he invaded his idealogical enemy Stalin, and while making great progress in the South to Stalingrad, ran into a brick wall! Not to mention he was a paranoid, and did what he could to hinder any great achievements of this military leader.

And I don't think its a matter of making use of his manpower, but I think it was his manpower knowing the guy was insane. One of his chief scientist, don't remember if it was Bohr or Heisenburg, purposely was hindering progress. Knowing a V2 with a nuclear payload would be bad news.

As for the man on the moon. Don't confuse nuclear ambitions with the ability to do spaceflight. Just look at Pakistan and India for that.

 

[Blutsbruder1905]

Well, 12 million people may be correct, but one thing is sure, and that´s the fact that many of them were not shot. Sure it would have changed some things, but I still don´t believe that he´d been able to invade in winter Russia, no matter what strength his army might have had.

The rest seems logical... but it stays speculation.

P.S. Penicilin (is it spelled correct?) was found by nazi-scientists, this could be judged as a positive thing..., if you forget about the thing HOW they did.

 

[Intruder13]

It is not easy to actively kill 12 Million people... that's 12 million bullets,

IIRC, Stalin's regime did not use bullets. Typically, they just buried people alive.