"Missing" Leader pet peeves

[Phyr_Negator]

Latvians deserved what they got - let's say thet was payback for wide support of Hitler. IMHO they should thank Stalin for his kindness that he didn't extinct them for theathery and Nazi support. And as long today Latvian SS veterans coinciered honorable and provided with privileges that states that his decision was too honest.
And as long as that "too many" people tremble ONLY cuz they hear his name - that means that Stalin earns his place in world history righfully.
In 1897 the first official census in this area indicated that Latvians formed 68.3 percent of Latvia's the total population of 1.93 million; Russians accounted for 12.0 percent, Jews for 7.4 percent, Germans for 6.2 percent, and Poles for 3.4 percent
P.S.And there are a still too many people who feel proud, hearing Stalin's great name=D

 

[siberfox]

BULL****!!! Where did you get this info from?

Baltic states DID NOT have large Russian population before WWII!!! Most of the Russians ever to be here [in Baltics] arrived after WWII [they were 'invited' to come here by Russian communist governments; YES Baltics were actually heavily colonized in communist times by Russians; actually I know NOT A SINGLE Russian here whos family had lived here before 1940]!!!

From this latvian source:
http://www.li.lv/en/?id=23

During the whole period of independence, Russians remained the biggest national minority of the country. In 1935, the part of Russians in the whole structure of the population of Latvia made up 10.5%

And please:
Don't judge another times with another problems with todays standards. The world was totally different.

 

[juno]

Latvians deserved what they got - let's say thet was payback for wide support of Hitler. IMHO they should thank Stalin for his kindness that he didn't extinct them for theathery and Nazi support. And as long today Latvian SS veterans coinciered honorable and provided with privileges that states that his decision was too honest.
And as long as that "too many" people tremble ONLY cuz they hear his name - that means that Stalin earns his place in world history righfully.
In 1897 the first official census in this area indicated that Latvians formed 68.3 percent of Latvia's the total population of 1.93 million; Russians accounted for 12.0 percent, Jews for 7.4 percent, Germans for 6.2 percent, and Poles for 3.4 percent
P.S.And there are a still too many people who feel proud, hearing Stalin's great name=D

Here we sadly see how well Stalins agenda of evil still works nowdays. Murderer of millions gets praised whereas he should be as hated as Hitler.

 

[juno]

From this latvian source:
http://www.li.lv/en/?id=23

During the whole period of independence, Russians remained the biggest national minority of the country. In 1935, the part of Russians in the whole structure of the population of Latvia made up 10.5%

And please:
Don't judge another times with another problems with todays standards. The world was totally different.

OK. 10% -- its still a pretty noral minority. But tell me then is it normal and how did it happen that during soviet times the percentage rised so that now more than half of capital citys inhabitants are Russian [the capital city hosts ~1/3 of all states population].

 

[Mrdie]

3) Mao was not the greatest person to lead China in all of it's history. But he still should be in since he is the most known leader of China IMHO. Also, he did not PURPOSELY kill thousands of his own people (In the Cultural Revolution he did, but not before that, the thousands of deaths before were from his bad farming policies) but if Mao had to go, I would choose Shin Tzu

2) While Julius Ceasar was not the greatest Emperor of Rome (Assuming you can call him Emperor), he is the most well known. When you ask people who comes to mind when they think of Roman Emperors, I am sure a majority will say Julius Ceasar.

1) I will just assume that you confused http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis XIV with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis XVI and ignore this.

 

[siberfox]

OK. 10% -- its still a pretty noral minority. But tell me then is it normal and how did it happen that during soviet times the percentage rised so that now more than half of capital citys inhabitants are Russian [the capital city hosts ~1/3 of all states population].

Natural internal migration in USSR. The young specialists or workers prefered to move or stay in the Baltic states because of the higher living standards there. Russians were a majority in USSR, therefore it's only natural, that their proportion among the migrants is high.

Would you forbid the internal migration? Why? All peoples had the same rights there. Are you an activist against the goverment -> go to the camp, whether you are a Russian or a Latvian. Do you want to work in Latvia -> please, if you want. Do you want to move to Siberia, to earn higher wages there in the oil or gas sector -> please.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

he should be as hated as Hitler

Should be hated...that tells a lot. People's deposition coincidered the most unreliable of all and documents are written by people, so history is the most inarticulate of sciences. Those who want to hate - can hate, but tthose who got nothing against leaders such as Stalin and Hitler can decide for themselves, hate someone or not.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

This thread has carried way off topic. Although I find the strong sentiments spawned by the original topic interesting, it is the game which is interesting here, not who was the biggest or not the biggest tyrant of them all.

I would like to pose a question, which I find interesting. If you can write books on history - on WW2, on Hitler, on Stalin - and all of the historical crimes thinkable, then why can't a computer game (in your opinion) deal with these?

Mao made it in (he is probably the second-most controversial character of the game), and as you know Stalin made his appearance in first game, without great controversy (AFAIK). They're not exactly portrayed as saints, they're caricatures of the worlds tyrants. Why is that a problem?

With CivIII and CivIV the game introduces some of the more controversial aspects of history, such as slavery and religion, and it does it well and without great outcries. Why can't the game deal equally well with the "real bad" guys of history?

 

[weasel77066]

The american founding fathers WERE considered treasonous. Many of the men who signed the declaration of independance were hunted down and executed. Estates were burned, their families were killed, and alot of them died paupers for their beliefs> have a book that tells what happened to each of them.
They were seditionists and guilty of treason before and during the war. Now they are heroes. (This is reply to someone down the line in this thread)
On topic, I think they chose colorfull leaders. There are hundreds of them that I could think of, that could have been in, whether the were great or not. I always liked Henry V, just because it is a colorfull event, though he wasnt much in the long term (I suppose) Im sure alot more leaders will be added later, and modded out by people with the time.

 

[siberfox]

This thread has carried way off topic. Although I find the strong sentiments spawned by the original topic interesting, it is the game which is interesting here, not who was the biggest or not the biggest tyrant of them all.

Agreed.
On topic: I as a russian don't miss Stalin as leader in the game. I am satisfied with Peter and Catherine. May be I would slightly prefer Ivan the Terrible instead of Peter.

 

[aidan_b5]

In order to be a freedom fighter, one must have a JUST claim to self rule as opposed to a current UNJUST rule. French resistance fighters WERE freedom fighters. The FLN are NOT. The American revolutionaries WERE freedom fighters. Al Qaeda is NOT.

The notion of being 'Just' is subjective, not an absolute.

Therefore the original saying is correct and you are wrong.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

I would like to pose a question, which I find interesting. If you can write books on history - on WW2, on Hitler, on Stalin - and all of the historical crimes thinkable, then why can't a computer game (in your opinion) deal with these?

Mao made it in (he is probably the second-most controversial character of the game), and as you know Stalin made his appearance in first game, without great controversy (AFAIK). They're not exactly portrayed as saints, they're caricatures of the worlds tyrants. Why is that a problem?

Oh, that's easy. Cuz when first Civ emerged, only few areas was infected with political correctness(Hitler was rpresented too, but as military advisor with despotism, if memory serves), but today, most of the morld suffer from various pandemics of PC in various forms. Made religions different - politically incorrect - someone can tell on you to Big Brother.

 

[juno]

Natural internal migration in USSR. The young specialists or workers prefered to move or stay in the Baltic states because of the higher living standards there. Russians were a majority in USSR, therefore it's only natural, that their proportion among the migrants is high.

Would you forbid the internal migration? Why? All peoples had the same rights there. Are you an activist against the goverment -> go to the camp, whether you are a Russian or a Latvian. Do you want to work in Latvia -> please, if you want. Do you want to move to Siberia, to earn higher wages there in the oil or gas sector -> please.

All the people have same rights in USSR? Sorry, you have missed something here [heehee -- rather: ordinary workPEOPLE had rigts in USSR!!! ].
Those were not neccessarily specialists who arrived -- many were simple workers. AND those who went to the camps not allways were activists against government [my family were simple farmers, their property was far from big ]. The problem also is the arrivers tended to show little respect to the local culture [though there are always exceptions]. Few learned local languages and they were not in the smallest way encoureged to do so by the authorities -- the gownmet's politics for Baltics were clearly that of colonizing teritory/assimilating local people.
BTW--wages all through USSR tended to be similar [the whole point of communism was to grant everybody the same standart for living -- a druncard tractor driver, scoolteacher and scientist..., was it not?] -- you had to have veeery good aquintances to get a position better than most [ironically -- even if you had a lot of money, there was big chance you would be unable to buy things u needed because the shops tended to be pretty empty -- especially at the time when communism was comming to end -- I remember friend's dad told what now sounds funny: how he had been waiting for 2 hours in queue in a food store to get meat for family's lunch, and all he got there was 2 tiny sausages...].

Oh well. The main point here is [as we very well see in this topic]: many people are still VERY sensitive about the events of previous century [including myself], therefore RECENT leaders [of the previous 100 years, I'd say] like Stalin SHOULD not be included in CIV -- otherwise many people might get hurt/offended.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Oh my GOD! Some people offended!? Think of it! Just imaging how ungrateful you are, if you are offending Al Quaeda!
People like you never ever accept a single thought that offending Stalin and Hitler can hurt other's.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Thread closed.

This thread went way off topic, and was a troll/spam-fest. This is not acceptable here.

Consider yourselves warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889