MLDR003 - NOW in the big D

[Belisar]

ChrTh misses me, I thought you US-guys had C&C and no time for these old games

1430: Since we will need a couple of turns to finish off Monty I sell Hanni
AT for Combustion and 310 gpt. He has MassProd too, so Electronics for MassProd and
his last 26 gpt as well as his last 348 cash.
Both the Arabs and the Aztecs have nothing to offer for AT.
I set research to max (Mot.Trans.)
Orhan builds an army and I load our victorious Sipahi and two vets.
I kill 2 Iro cavs west of Centralia and move forces into position for the war against Monty.
I replace Ganges with New Ganges, lofcation is a bit better.
Upgrade the last cannons, we have 56 art, still not enough but something to work with.
With some MM and some workers I can get Istanbul and Busra to one art. every turn

IT: The Iro counterattack near Centralia (2 guerillas) leads to one Sipahi retreat, the second
guer. dies.
Kafa finishes bank, starts on military.

1435: Mostly troop positioning to finish off the Iros next turn and attacking Monty at the same turn.
I realize that we probably need more inf. on the other continent.
I merge a few of our own workers on the main continent. We pay already troop support
and we have enough slaves. All important tiles are improved, the last mountains mined, just
some pollution to clear every now and then.
I set 3 costal sites to ship-production. Hanni will be running around with BBs soon so
we need something to protect our vessels. I don't upgrade our transports since we
are just shiping the production of one turn at a time.
We have the boat space, so I ship our musket army.

IT: The Aztez waste their cavs at Centralia, 2 die to Iro rifles and 2 retreat,
will give us chances for easy kills. They also attack with inf, lose one and kill one defender.
The Arabs renew their Wine deal with us.

1440: Tarentum finishes factory, starts market.
I bombard Centralia and finish of the 3 redlined defenders and the Iros are history.
We take and raze the island city, the island is no ours, send forces back.
Taking Kahnawake (after bombarding) costs us 1 Sipahi to a redlined inf.
Bombard and kill an Aztec stack of 3 inf and 2 cavs that was heading to Centralia
without cassualties.
The turn isn't finished to allow some troop repositioning for Coffee.


Notes:
Military:
Home Continent:
Our mobile reserve is currently in Antium (8 Sipahi). The additional Sipahi (injured, arrived from
the island this turn) are in Mugla.
The artillery production this turn is also in Mugla, awaiting shiping.
New Continent:
I have 5 combat settlers in St. Regis and the slaves in Hiawatha's End.
Tonawada is the city wit the barracks, two Sipahi are healing there this turn.
Artillery, armies, infantry and Sipahi are concentrated on the new Aztec front, good luck Coffee.


Production:
I changed all libs in corrupt cities to art. to use the shields since we
are going for conquest. I also stoped worker production to avoid gpt costs from support.
It may be worth searching the last 20 workers that cost gpt and merge them for drafting.
I drafted a lot of inf. to replace our MPs (shiped the vets oversea) and add flip-guards NW.
Be aware, I really don't trust our "friend" Hanni. Tanks available in 9 turns, deity research in
Monarchy iss terrible.
There is one important point: You can not have to much artillery, so keep
producing the heavy gunns to take out all those infantry.

SAVE

 

[ChrTh]

Some of us are waiting patiently for :santa:

Good job kicking some Iroqi butt! And nice work on the island

Azteca
Carthage
Arabia

 

[Coffee]

Ok, I scanned the notes and will reread again later. We are in the final and more difficult turns so I don't expect to have this up tonight.

 

[ChrTh]

[AZ_Steve]
Awww, hurry up you guys!
[/AZ_Steve]

 

[Arizona_Steve]

I'm also playing in LotR11, so the pressure's off, for now

 

[ChrTh]

I'm the only American without C3C

 

[Northern Pike]

Continuing our semi-OT discussion of the elimination of Wonder-rushing in Conquests:

1. It's going to make our kind of game a lot harder. Getting the Great Library seems to be the single greatest determinant of success in heavy-war games. Where would we be in this one if we hadn't been able to snag the GL with an early Leader?

2. It's going to make the 20K cultural goal much more difficult at all levels of play--or at least much more boring, since more than ever it'll be a question of stomping all the other civs while just avoiding domination, and then waiting through dozens or hundreds of uneventful turns.

 

[ChrTh]

@NP

#1: I've always believed that certain techniques, such as GL or TOE->HD were crutches to many styles of gameplay. I'm glad they've made this change, as it'll force a reworking of strategies (although I'm sure a whole new group of crutches will emerge).

#2: I think the addition of the new AA wonders offsets this

 

[LKendter]

20K won't be hurt as badly. Get that army - rush the culture heavy heroic epic, all the small wonders, hey rush that 320 sheild shield university!

What is really hurt is AW. I may have to start a AW game soon just to see how badly lack of wonder rushing impacts the gameplay there.

 

[Northern Pike]

1. Well, when we start out at deity and then add various provisions to make the game even harder, I'm not sure crutches are to be disdained. A man who's sacrificed one of his legs is entitled to a crutch.

More generally, I don't share the view--which your (ChrTh's) comments imply, and which Sullla expresses at greater length in the discussion of Conquests on his site--that strategies based on getting the right Wonders with Leaders depend too much on luck. The player has a good deal of control over how many Leaders he gets, provided he's willing to accept the risks (a lot of war) and trade-offs (early commitment of a Leader and 200 shields to Heroic Epic) involved. To my mind, that brings this approach to the game into the realm of skill and judgement.


2. ChrTh, good point, but it may still be harder to stuff a lot of early Wonders into the 20K city now. We'll have to see how it plays out.

LK, you've certainly identified how the 20K victory will remain possible, but I suspect this scenario would involve a lot of pushing Enter with only a few enemy cities left on the map.

 

[ChrTh]

@NP: It's not the dependence on luck aspect that I dislike, it's the feeling that you're trapped as to what you can do. Look at this game; we sat on a GL for *ages* (not to mention the prebuild shields wasted), just because we felt the necessity to do the TOE->HD build. Yes, it'll help...but if we can't win without it, then we need to rethink what we're doing here.

The problem with a crutch is you tend to stop using your legs because you're too dependent on it.

 

[Coffee]

Turns 0 - 4
Drafted some citizens & positioned troops. Abbu requests an MPP and I sign. Rush some police stations looking for the magic 50spt. Build some universities to speed research. MT now doe in 4t. Capture Calixtlahuaca (gems) & Carthage settles near Swift xing. Carthage has been threatening and now has 31 infantry just outside our borders.


1465 - 5
I block Carthages move.
Move on Xochl..

1470 - 6
Capture Xochicalco.
Carthage threatens but does not attack.
Get a gl. Build an army of infantry.
Sell AT to Abbu for furs & gold.
Carthage has flight.

1475 - 7
Neapolis flips (old Rome)
More drafts, Organaze into 2 armies of 40 each.

1480 - 8
Start on tanks. Science on flight at max.
Carthage continues to probe but so far no action.

1485 - 9
Xochicalco flips, recapture and raze.

1490 - 10
Carthage popped and parked about 45 troops outside of st. Regis. There are a dozen tanks ready to use here.
Capture Tlatelolco, get a gl, build an army.
Capture Tzintzuntzen.


The Game

Sorry for the poor report, more later.

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by ChrTh
@NP: It's not the dependence on luck aspect that I dislike, it's the feeling that you're trapped as to what you can do. Look at this game; we sat on a GL for *ages* (not to mention the prebuild shields wasted), just because we felt the necessity to do the TOE->HD build.

I think the point is: Our GL was a 99.9% insurance policy that we indeed get ToE and Hoover. Without the (great-wonder) rush-ability of GLs games with constant war will be a lot harder.
Not only do you sacrifice 50-75% of your production to military, you also accept a less productive gov. and have to deal with only a few trading partners. GLs somewhat compensated for that. Therefore, I think the traditional AW game is "in deep problems", but variants like this one might be possible.
I'm all up for a new NOW game, but we should probably start on Demigod (not sure because I lack some info.) NOW-Deity should definitely be more difficult than in PTW and finally NOW-Sid could be really interesting.

Btw, good turns Coffee. I hope we lost only the junk-units in Neapolis, we should have just aband. the 2 risk-cities NW.
With tanks we should be able to finish this one soon. Is flight available?

 

[Coffee]

A summary of sorts:

We are looking good for production with 9 cities producing 1 tank every 2 turns. Flight is due in 8-9 turns at 100% science. IIRC the Carthage deal ends in 3 turns. Expect war from them. They are pressing at every oppurtunity.

I built about 10 universities, I don't know how much that helped if any, 1 turn for sure. I had only lost 4 or so units up until Xochicalco flipped. Lost 5 units taking it back. Given the amount of arty we have, I was able to knock cities down to size 3 from 13.

Lost 2 drafties with the Neapolis filp. I shuffled things around adding those pikes etc to the core for extra mp duty. I suspect the lack of mps in Neapolis caused the flip. More mp's have been added to hat area.

I'd say we are good to go. We can handle a war on two fronts. Ships are needed, your call. Flight + airports will speed things up. Good luck and enjoy the tanks.

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Got it.

Although right now I'm stuck at work (another software implementation), so it's unlikely that I'll have time to play my turns tonight. I will aim to post tomorrow (Monday) evening.

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by Coffee
Given the amount of arty we have, I was able to knock cities down to size 3 from 13.

Shows one more time the power of art.
Keeps our casualties low and we can even keep a few strategically good placed cities

 

[Arizona_Steve]

(0) Inherited Turn
Not too much left of the Aztecs. Main goal is to get Flight, and rush an airport or two. We're already at 100% science.
I'm left with at least a stack of tanks to move, so I might as well use them aggressively. I move them all into Tlatelolco to attack Malinalco in a couple of turns.
Make note of a nice pile of settlers and workers next to Tonawanda. The last player kindly left one unmoved (same with the tank stack) to make sure I noticed their presence.
Tried to move a stack of artillery, but only the infantry moved. Brought another up from the rear to cover.
There's two Aztec workers right next to our border. I capture them with a Sipahi.
I'm not going to go heavy on micromanagement - I notice a lot of taxman, but assume they are in outlying cities. I do put one scientist in Istanbul back to work (and Flight research is reduced to 7 turns as a result).
Man that is one huge stack of Carthaginian infantry outside St Regis (I count over 50 units). I see no point in maintaining the border patrol, so move those units that can be moved into St Regis to hopfully take out a good deal of that stack before the city is taken. Could... get... ugly...

IBT:
The two aztec workers predictably get recaptured (I was unable to get an infantry down to guard them). Amazingly the AI proceedes to move one worker across the border (and cover it with an infantry) and DISBAND the other. if you ask me.

(1) 1495AD
Uninteresting turn. Some troop movements. I block a three tile choke point with tanks to prevent that infantry SOD from moving further into our territory without declaring war.
Clean up orange goo next to Istanbul, and reassign the citizen.

IBT:
The Carthage SOD realizes it isn't going anywhere, and turns back.
No attacks from the Aztecs.

(2) 1500AD
Prepare to attack Malinalco. A bunch of tanks, infantry and artillery are moved next to the city.
Prepare also to attack Tlacopan in a couple of turns.
Some builds changed to libraries and rushed to lock borders in our newly acquired lands.

IBT:
Loads of tanks complete.
We get a triple dose of pollution.
And we discover a new source of Saltpeter. Party time!!

(3) 1505AD
Three pollution squares, one on grassland, one on a hill and one on a mountain take many workers to clear.
Malinalco is bombarded down to size 7 (from 12) and three hurt infantry, and is razed by our tanks. There is a settler in that SOD to replace it.
I resettle Aydin on the coal that we have just deprived the Aztecs of.
Our wines deal with Carthage expires this turn. I probably won't renew it. They are still paying us around 350 gold/turn for the next 5 turns, so it's likely they'll declare war to get out of paying.

IBT:
Nothing

(4) 1510AD
Bombard Tlacopan to size 11 with injured defenders and raze it with the loss of one tank.

IBT:
A few Aztec troops stray into our territory.

(5) 1515AD
Bombard and kill the stray Aztec troops. An elite Sipahi kills a redlined infantry and gives us a GL, he forms our first tank army.

IBT:
More stray Aztec troops.

(6) 1520AD
Bombard Tenoctitlan from population 15 to population 6 before moving in with the tanks and razing the city. An artillery is captured. Settler moves into position to settle next turn.
Carthage has Amphibious warfare in addition to Flight. Flight is due this turn, but I cannot move the science slider down from 100%

IBT:
Carthage and the Aztecs sign a trade embargo against us. Didn't I tell you they were evil? Flight comes in, Radio selected - 12 turns @ 100%.

(7) 1525AD
Kirklareli founded, stealing horses from the Aztecs.
Major pollution clean-up round. Greenpeace would be proud.
All core cities are switched to Airport. Airport started at Calixtlahuaca, to be rushed once airports come online on the mainland.

IBT:
Aztecs and Arabia sign peace. Then Arabia promptly declares war again - maybe there was an MPP agreement involved.
Our deal with Carthage ends, and we are 199 gold/turn in the hole.

(8) 1530AD
Not worth researching now, I switch science to 0% and continue research on Radio using scientists alone. Building up cash for tech steals.
Texacoco is razed, but the RNG luck on both bombardment and the tank attack was horrible, resulting in the loss of five tanks.
A couple of settlers are brought down to build new cities next turn.

IBT:
Arabia captures Atzcapotzalco and block the way for my troops to move inland

(9) 1535AD
Karabuk and Yozgat founded. Both start libraries.

IBT:
Arabia no longer wants our wines for some reason. I noticed some of their transports heading towards us. Sneak attack perhaps?

(10) 1540AD
I count no less than 6 settlers completing this turn. All are loaded onto transports.
Airport rushed at Calixtlahuaca. There are another half dozen or so airports on the mainland, with more to come.
There's a nice big SOD sitting outside Teayo - have fun Meldor!!
The Aztecs are nearly dead (5 cities left, including one surrounded by Carthaginian culture), and it's getting close to "that time" when we have have to go for Carthage.

Here's our latest ill-gotten gains...

And the save... Go get 'em!!

 

[Coffee]

Good reading there Arizona.....err just one thing, workers can make instant airports at no charge.

 

[Belisar]

Good progress Steve.

I'm glad we needed our time to take out Monty so my 310gpt and the wine deal with Hanni didn't turn out to be exploitive.
And Coffee is right, we want some airfields as soon as possible.

 

[Arizona_Steve]

err just one thing, workers can make instant airports at no charge

My bad. Completely forgot about that.