MNAI-U: unofficial build & bugfixes

[King Bulrush]

Civ4ArtDefines_Misc.xml in assests\xml\art folder line 335 (near the very bottom).

I corrected this latter file (in the other one everything was fine) and now it works. I still have no ideea how this error could arise in the first place, since I previously installed the same mod on the same computer and it ran without issues for a few days. Anyway, thanks a lot for the suggestion! It was very helpful.

 

[omegaflames]

You are welcome. You are the 2nd person this week to mention that particular bug so there might be something going on with new installations related to FFH2. I haven't paid enough attention to the specifics yet to know the similarities but I guess I'll go back and see if I can't reproduce them and hopefully figure out why all of the sudden that's happening after years of that not being an issue. Do you happen to remember what it was pointing to before you corrected it?

 

[King Bulrush]

Do you happen to remember what it was pointing to before you corrected it?

I simply changed the path for the default theme name from Mods/Fall From Heaven 2/Resource/Civ4.thm to Mods/More Naval AI/Resource/Civ4.thm on line 335 (since this modmod has its own folder).

 

[lfgr]

Thanks @omegaflames, I didn't actually know that the theme is also referenced in XML, so I didn't change it when changing the MNAI folder name. This is then the reason why it doesn't work when vanilla Fall from Heaven is not installed alongside. I'll fix this for the next release.
@King Bulrush, maybe you removed the vanilla installation directly before it stopped working?

I thought I had confirmed that the last MNAI does work without vanilla installed. So either I forgot to do that or maybe there is some caching going on.

 

[King Bulrush]

@King Bulrush, maybe you removed the vanilla installation directly before it stopped working?

I thought I had confirmed that the last MNAI does work without vanilla installed. So either I forgot to do that or maybe there is some caching going on.

Are you asking if I also had vanilla FFH2 istalled? Because yes, I allways had both MNAIu and FFH2 installed (in separate folders, as per the installation instructions), and never deleted the vanilla version of the mod. BTW: for the installation I had to use the archive and copy the files manually from there, because your setup would not work properly (I don't know why but I suspect that it doesn't like the folder structure for the GOG version of Civ4). But anyway, even if I had to use the archive I know I installed the mod properly on the first attempt, since I could start a new game with it.

Also, thanks a lot for replying! Would this be a good place to ask you some questions about any gameplay changes you made? Or is there a separate thread for that?

 

[lfgr]

I see, so doesn't work well with Steam or GOG. That's probably the majority of the players who have the game today. Did anybody successfully use the setup with a GOG version?

You can ask anything you want here in this thread.
Just be aware that almost all of the (few) gameplay changes were made by Tholal, and I'm generally reluctant to touch balance. I'll try to clear everything up regardless.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

Unique Features sometimes appear on the wrong terrain (Letum Frigus on Plains, Mirror of Heaven on Tundra, Guardian of Pristin Pass on Junge with Dye(!), etc.)

Other new in poor resource evaluation: The AI will trade gold for resources during Stasis. Cardith Lorda traded resources for a Horse he didn't need.

The line from hovering over some units (the ones that start with Hidden Nationality?) doesn't give the owner. Especially a problem when their flags don't show up, which I think I've seen with Giant Spiders a few times. A couple of Elephants seemed to have that problem, but it seems that their flags were just hidden behind them when they faced backwards!

Anyway, that gives me An Idea. How about Hidden Nationality units deliberately not having flags instead of having Barbarian flags, and having their owner listed as "Hidden Nationality" instead of "Barbarian"?

I recall that in the previous version, the Options that I had previously selected stayed checked when I started a new game. That doesn't happen any more. Did you decide to undo that change? I had liked it, but I can see how others might not. I'm probably supposed to edit some file if I want to change the defaults, aren't I?

 

[lfgr]

Unique Features sometimes appear on the wrong terrain (Letum Frigus on Plains, Mirror of Heaven on Tundra, Guardian of Pristin Pass on Junge with Dye(!), etc.)

What mapscript are you using?

Other new in poor resource evaluation: The AI will trade gold for resources during Stasis. Cardith Lorda traded resources for a Horse he didn't need.

Noted.

The line from hovering over some units (the ones that start with Hidden Nationality?) doesn't give the owner. Especially a problem when their flags don't show up, which I think I've seen with Giant Spiders a few times. A couple of Elephants seemed to have that problem, but it seems that their flags were just hidden behind them when they faced backwards!

You mean even after they are no longer hidden nationality? Or your own units with hidden nationality? Otherwise you shouldn't see the owner, of course. The flag issue is due to invisibility, I think. Probably an engine issue, I'm not sure if I can change anything regarding flags.

I recall that in the previous version, the Options that I had previously selected stayed checked when I started a new game. That doesn't happen any more. Did you decide to undo that change? I had liked it, but I can see how others might not. I'm probably supposed to edit some file if I want to change the defaults, aren't I?

Try setting

ForceGameOptions = 0

It is 1 by default. If you set it to 0 you'll have to start a "Play Now!" game every time after using a different mod, to reset the hidden gameoptions. There also might be some other problem that I don't remember right now.

 

[King Bulrush]

You can ask anything you want here in this thread.
Just be aware that almost all of the (few) gameplay changes were made by Tholal, and I'm generally reluctant to touch balance. I'll try to clear everything up regardless.

OK, then here are some things I noticed on my last playthorugh which seemed different form the latest version of "vanilla" MNAI:

- Did you decrease the rate at which Baron Duin Halfmorn spawns werewolves? I seem to remember that he used to create a new werewolf after almost every victory, but now he seemed significantly less effective.

- On a related note, did you perhaps also modify the chance at which religious orders (like crusaders for ex. ) spawn when a religion spreads to a new city? I noticed a difference here too, but it was much smaller, si it might have been just bad luck this time.

- I noticed that I can't build frigates. Did you make them go obsolete when Manowars become available? If yes, I think that it is not a good ideea because frigates can carry birds so they remain usefull as recon assets even after more powerfull ships become available, so they should remain buildable too.

- Did you add new resolutions to the overcouncil? I think the "trade maps" option wasn't there in Tholal's mod (And it certainly wasn't there in vanilla FFH2 - However, this addition I liked and think it is a good ideea). If yes, did you add anything to the undercouncil too.

- Did you add any new events? On my last playthrough I saw some events which I don't remember ever seeing before.


That's all I remember for now. Thanks in advance for any response!

 

[lfgr]

- Did you decrease the rate at which Baron Duin Halfmorn spawns werewolves? I seem to remember that he used to create a new werewolf after almost every victory, but now he seemed significantly less effective.

- On a related note, did you perhaps also modify the chance at which religious orders (like crusaders for ex. ) spawn when a religion spreads to a new city? I noticed a difference here too, but it was much smaller, si it might have been just bad luck this time.

No and no.

- I noticed that I can't build frigates. Did you make them go obsolete when Manowars become available? If yes, I think that it is not a good ideea because frigates can carry birds so they remain usefull as recon assets even after more powerfull ships become available, so they should remain buildable too.

No. But you have a point, I'll look into it.

- Did you add new resolutions to the overcouncil? I think the "trade maps" option wasn't there in Tholal's mod (And it certainly wasn't there in vanilla FFH2 - However, this addition I liked and think it is a good ideea). If yes, did you add anything to the undercouncil too.

I didn't add any new resolutions, but I fixed some and removed some. I believe "exchange maps" was also in MNAI-pre-unofficial, but maybe it was broken, I don't remember. I know it required 3 players in the overcouncil in back then, I changed that two 2 (to align it with the other resolutions).
I'm planning to do another sweep over the resolutions to further clean up some stuff, but probably only with minor gameplay changes. For example, the overcouncil "Free Trade" resolution currently applies to all players, not only OC members. That kind of stuff.

- Did you add any new events? On my last playthrough I saw some events which I don't remember ever seeing before.

No. There is again a chance that I fixed previously broken events, but I don't think so.

 

[Devils_Advocate]

What mapscript are you using?

Erebus.

You mean even after they are no longer hidden nationality?

Yes. See attached screenshot. I placed the units with Worldbuilder to show the issue, but it happens without it. (The AI likes to declare nationality on its units, I think. The AI not knowing how to use HN units probably constitutes its own issue.)

Speaking of Bears, I've noticed in the past that using their Create Den ability doesn't give the unit to the Barbarians but instead creates a new Barbarian Bear, leaving the player with the original.

frigates can carry birds so they remain usefull as recon assets even after more powerfull ships become available

A land unit with a Hawk could carry it aboard any ship with sufficient cargo space* in unmodded FFH2, but Tholal changed that as an overzealous if not malicious part of his generally reasonable nerfing of Hawks. I favor undoing that change, personally. I don't see how there's any particular problem with taking a Hawk overseas.

*A Hunter with a Hawk would take up 2 cargo space.

 

[lfgr]

It looks like Tholal intended Man o' Wars to be able to carry hawks, but forgot to increase <iCargo>, see commit. I will make them able to carry one hawk.

 

[King Bulrush]

It looks like Tholal intended Man o' Wars to be able to carry hawks, but forgot to increase <iCargo>, see commit. I will make them able to carry one hawk.

Do you know why the decision to make frigates obsolete was taken? Is it just a bug, or was it a simplification to help the the AI? Historically, frigates and ships of the line were used in paralell, the former for scouting, raiding and escort duties, and the latter to engage the enemy fleet head on (or more likely broadside on, but you get the point).
So if the AI can handle it, it may be nice to be able to replicate the same dynamic in game. Maybe give frigates one more movement point (currently they have one less) and/or give them the ability to capture enemy ships. Unless you believe such changes are too big and thus beyond the scope of your mod.

I didn't add any new resolutions, but I fixed some and removed some.

May I ask which resolutions you removed? I did not notice which ones were missing.

 

[lfgr]

Do you know why the decision to make frigates obsolete was taken?

I don't know. I don't think it is related to the AI. But I'm not willing to make gameplay changes to make frigates more useful, so it's probably best to also leave them to obsolete.

May I ask which resolutions you removed? I did not notice which ones were missing.

"Assign City", like the UN resolution in vanilla BtS, was theoretically available to the overcouncil, although it could never be chosen (I forgot why exactly, but I believe it had to do how membership and semi-membership works in vanilla BtS as opposed to FfH).
"Pacifism" was obviously unfinished, as it literally didn't do anything and was not selectable. Whatever it was supposed to do, it probably wouldn't fit FfH.
The only thing that might have been visible earlier was the "No city razing" resolution, which I deemed unfitting for FfH (besides, it seemed unfinished, since it only prevented auto-razing of cities).

I think there is some more potential in the vote system. I added some possibilities to implement vote effects and AI in python, so maybe Magister will implement (or already has?) some more interesting resolution in his mod. I think he was planning to do that at some point. In ExtraModMod, there currently seems to be an imbalance between good and evil AI civs (the latter seem stronger for the AI), so I might try to implement some overcouncil resolutions to get the good AI civs to work together.

I'm not categorically against adding new resolutions to MNAI, too, btw. So, if you have an interesting and not too complicated suggestion, feel free to post them here. But, unfortunately, the giant pile of unfixed bugs is arguably more important than this stuff, so I don't know if I'll ever get to it.

 

[King Bulrush]

I'm not willing to make gameplay changes to make frigates more useful, so it's probably best to also leave them to obsolete.

I understant. To a certain extent, I also play MNAI because it's "the new vanilla". But I only dared to make the above suggestion because you (and Tholal before you, obviously) are the only modder who seems to care about the naval aspect of the game, which seems otherwise to not be very popular. Perhaps you could implement something like that in ExtraModMod, since it already has other gameplay changes.

In ExtraModMod, there currently seems to be an imbalance between good and evil AI civs (the latter seem stronger for the AI), so I might try to implement some overcouncil resolutions to get the good AI civs to work together.

I'm not categorically against adding new resolutions to MNAI, too, btw. So, if you have an interesting and not too complicated suggestion, feel free to post them here.

I'm not sure I can offer a good suggestion here. The one thing I noticed while playing with the overcouncil is that I dislike the "Global civic x" resolutions (because they can be crippling if they lock you in a civic that is not suited to your gameplan/strategy). and also the "outlaw x mana" (if that passes you can't be in the overcouncil and go for a tower victory) although this last one makes sense from a lore perspective. So I only know which resolutions I would remove, not what I would add.

Thanks for the reply.
Merry Christmas and happy new year!

 

[Tielby]

The one thing I noticed while playing with the overcouncil is that I dislike the "Global civic x" resolutions (because they can be crippling if they lock you in a civic that is not suited to your gameplan/strategy). and also the "outlaw x mana" (if that passes you can't be in the overcouncil and go for a tower victory) although this last one makes sense from a lore perspective.

When I'm really on a roll in the game and I think I can pull it off, I build the Tower of Necromancy first, and then join the Overcouncil, exactly for that reason. Besides allowing Tower of Mastery construction (I've turned off that victory altogether) it also negates the diplomacy penalties for possessing certain types of mana. So I don't see it so much as a flaw but as a speed bump.

But the civic one, yeah. That's an effective weapon, to be used by or against you.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I always despised global civic votes even in vanilla CIV. Who ever thought that was a good idea to include into the game was just wrong.

 

[lfgr]

IIRC, the global civic resolution additionally has the problem that after it is adopted, you cannot switch to or out of (?) overcouncil without having the tech required for liberty. Fixing this would be complicated. I'll consider removing the resolution, since there doesn't seem to be much support for it anyway.

I think the ban mana resolutions are quite nice thematically, but it would be much better if they also had an upside. I just can't think of something good. It shouldn't be too strong, because these resolutions sometimes do not affect you at all.

 

[Sezren]

IIRC, the global civic resolution additionally has the problem that after it is adopted, you cannot switch to or out of (?) overcouncil without having the tech required for liberty. Fixing this would be complicated. I'll consider removing the resolution, since there doesn't seem to be much support for it anyway.

I dont mind the enforced 'liberty' resolution. And the number of possible resolutions isnt very high either. But IMO removing it is better than it being bugged and preventing the adoption of 'Overcouncil'.
But I dont know if it makes proper sense for the AI players to vote for it if Cultural Victory isnt possible.

I think the ban mana resolutions are quite nice thematically, but it would be much better if they also had an upside.

From my POV the main purpose is to hurt rival members on the Overcouncil. Especially the "undeserving" members: Formerly evil civilizations which adopted religion and turned neutral/good. These are more prone to have banned mana types as palace mana.
(Its also good against tower victory meaning its good for the weak and bad for the strong. But this probably doesnt matter much because the leader is probably one of the strong ones.)

I just can't think of something good. It shouldn't be too strong, because these resolutions sometimes do not affect you at all.

Wouldnt reduction of the Armageddon Counter be the obvious thing? Whether that is "good" depends I guess - unfortunately the mod isnt properly designed in the manner that Armageddon is bad for good and good for evil.
So banning => AC -= xyz
And reenabling => AC += xyz
And the AI shouldnt vote 'yes' if the AC is too close to 0 for it to matter - unless it likes Armageddon.

 

[Tielby]

IIRC, the global civic resolution additionally has the problem that after it is adopted, you cannot switch to or out of (?) overcouncil without having the tech required for liberty. Fixing this would be complicated. I'll consider removing the resolution, since there doesn't seem to be much support for it anyway.

I dont mind the enforced 'liberty' resolution.

If I understood correctly (but I must admit, I've never noticed), the problem here is that the tech requirement for Overcouncil (Honor) is not very near the tech requirement for Liberty (Mercantilism), so it's possible for someone to become a member of the council (after Honor) but be unable to LEAVE it because of the other requirement (Mercantilism). Or did I misunderstand?

I think the ban mana resolutions are quite nice thematically, but it would be much better if they also had an upside. I just can't think of something good. It shouldn't be too strong, because these resolutions sometimes do not affect you at all.

From my POV the main purpose is to hurt rival members on the Overcouncil. Especially the "undeserving" members: Formerly evil civilizations which adopted religion and turned neutral/good. These are more prone to have banned mana types as palace mana.
(Its also good against tower victory meaning its good for the weak and bad for the strong. But this probably doesnt matter much because the leader is probably one of the strong ones.)

As I said in my previous post, for me, the upside is to get rid of the diplomacy penalties for having those mana types. If you've got one of them because of your leader, it's literally impossible to get rid of those penalties, and in other cases it's just very difficult:
Tower of Necromancy (which you obviously wouldn't want to tear down until you've completed the Tower of Mastery)
Stigmata on the Unborn or the Nox Noctis (which I believe you could only destroy using Inquisition divine spell)
or just generally, getting the metamagic Dispel Magic spell involves setting aside one, precious mana node for at least a little while.

And not only do you get rid of the diplomacy penalties, the Overcouncil, to my mind, gives greater diplomacy benefits than Council of Esus. So I don't think it needs more of an upside.

But I could see how that's of no benefit at all in a multiplayer game.

Wouldnt reduction of the Armageddon Counter be the obvious thing? Whether that is "good" depends I guess - unfortunately the mod isnt properly designed in the manner that Armageddon is bad for good and good for evil.
So banning => AC -= xyz
And reenabling => AC += xyz
And the AI shouldnt vote 'yes' if the AC is too close to 0 for it to matter - unless it likes Armageddon.

Actually, one of the things I love about FfH is that armageddon is NOT tied to good or evil. As in all dark fantasy, even the "good" side is bad.