[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[loki1232]

About Adventurers...I like the idea of the Palace generating AP (or whatever) you'll call Adventurer Points, but what about instead simply getting rid of Great People and using the Wonders for AP? Instead of Great Merchants, Prophets, Artists, ect you could then get Adventurer Archers, Melee, Mages, ect. Other than building an Academy or the religious shrine what good are Great People anyhow and do they really fit into FfH? This definitely would tie into AoW type gameplay when your Fame (from AP) would attract an Adventurer to your cause.

And if this has already been discussed by Kael and Loki (and others) on previous pages I apologize. And if it's a stupid idea I also apologize. And if it's undoable...well I don't apologize.

Adventurer type suggestions:

Mages instead of Prophets
Archers instead of ????
Axe or Swordsmen instead of ????
Horseman or archer instead of ????
Assassin instead of ????

If done there would have to be a way to actually build the religious buildings that get rushed by Prophets. Thoughts?

I think I might be misunderstanding you, but I think you have a great idea here.
The heros that we've all come to love this past week would be instead produced like great people. That's really cool. A couple of questions though: Can you scale it so the heros at the end of the game are more powerful than at the beginning?
Should it be that at the beginning of the game you get mostly adventurers, but at the end you get cooler stuff?
Maybe some types of heros would only be available to some religions, and thus those specialists only available for them too.
Heros intstead of GP is much more fantasy like.

 

[woodelf]

I think I might be misunderstanding you, but I think you have a great idea here.
The heros that we've all come to love this past week would be instead produced like great people. That's really cool. A couple of questions though: Can you scale it so the heros at the end of the game are more powerful than at the beginning?
Should it be that at the beginning of the game you get mostly adventurers, but at the end you get cooler stuff?
Maybe some types of heros would only be available to some religions, and thus those specialists only available for them too.
Heros intstead of GP is much more fantasy like.

Well we're almost on the same page.

I like the set religion based Heroes that Kael did, but I'd like to have these lesser heroes as well. You might be able to set up how powerful a lesser hero is based on the number of points needed to lure him to you. For example the 100 point guy isn't much, but the 7th hero or 700 point guy would kick ass. Not sure how that would mod though.

 

[Kael]

You never replied to this. Please answer.

Im runnign at 92 promotions right now. I went ahead and added a few test ones in to take me up to 101 without a problem. Game loaded, I could see them all, I added all 101 promotions to one unit with worldbuilder without a problem.

Where are you seeing the crash?

If you want to PM me your promotions file I will try it out and see if I have the same problem.

 

[Kael]

There any chance of an OO priest summoning up some kind of sea creature to fight off ships? Maybe something like 6 str with 3ish move.

Maybe like a demon summoner, but it would be for coastal defense only as the monster would last one turn.

Without access to the AI I can't get the computer to do this. It won't move to the coast to cast the spell. Thats why I don't have a water elemental in the game yet.

 

[Kael]

I don’t know is it a bug but I would report this anyway.

When playing Order having Montezuma as an enemy. He also have Order as state religion.
No one of us has tech required to build Crusaders but we both have a lot of them. Why? Every time when razed city (I and Montezuma doing this all the time – it was very long war) received two crusaders. I know that in 0.8 Order spawn Crusader when spreading in next city, but why create two Crusaders when Order city is razed?

I will check it out, thanks.

 

[Kael]

Another potential bug.

After building Blood of the Phoenix (not exactly sure what its supposed to do) I started recieving Blood of the Phoenix buffs on all my newly built troops and on previously built ones. On the next session, I stopped getting these promotions on newly built units. Is there a duration to it or does it only happen to units already built/being built? If it's supposed to be permanent, then I seemed to lose the ability after I loaded the game back up.

It is only applied to units that exist when the wonder is completed. From that point on units built in the city with the wonder get a medic promotion.

 

[Kael]

I don’t know is it a bug but I would report this anyway.

When playing Order having Montezuma as an enemy. He also have Order as state religion.
No one of us has tech required to build Crusaders but we both have a lot of them. Why? Every time when razed city (I and Montezuma doing this all the time – it was very long war) received two crusaders. I know that in 0.8 Order spawn Crusader when spreading in next city, but why create two Crusaders when Order city is razed?

K, I reproduced this, not sure how I'm going to fix it yet. Apparently the ReligionSpread event kicks if a city is captured or when a city is razed. Weird.

 

[Kael]

Kinda curious where you got the music from, but didn't want to flip through 80 pages to see if it was brought up already.

Order, Leaves, Veil and Runes theme songs are all from Enya. The Overlords theme song is from a song by Sting and the main menu theme was stolen from a Half-Life 2 mod called Eclipse. Some people have mentioned that they may have stole it from Heroes of Might & Magic.

 

[Kael]

Forum is eating my posts this morning.

 

[woodelf]

Forum is eating my posts this morning.

Nope that was me. Tasty with coffee in the morning....

I see you're still wading through to get to the Adventurer idea loki and I were hammering out while you were sleeping....

 

[Jono]

No one likes my complex ideas "/

 

[Kavok]

Without access to the AI I can't get the computer to do this. It won't move to the coast to cast the spell. Thats why I don't have a water elemental in the game yet.

Perhaps you could make a OO UU that builds on coastal cities with a OO temple then?

The naval units in this game doesn't have a huge amount of variety and on water maps the OO could really dominate if they focused on controlling the seas.

 

[Kael]

No one likes my complex ideas "/

Yeah, i would love to have an armies or "merge units" function. Which is a shame because with the graphics engine it is actually possible to see all of the merged units moving around together.

 

[woodelf]

No one likes my complex ideas "/

I know there is a Great General mod, but I have no idea what it does. Also, if the idea you're talking about involves armies I'm not sure how they would work in the Civ4 combat system? If you had a maceman, crossbowman, mage army attacking a city how would you figure out who's he's attacking since the defenders get to choose the best option? In Civ3 armies were great because they got +1 movement and 2x or 3x HPs. Here you can always get promoted to make yourself more powerful so I'm not convinced armies are needed.

If your complex ideas were something else then I'm sorry that I didn't find them when I looked back.

 

[Lightzy]

I suppose adventurers and heroes would be attracted to failing civz because.. its their homeland and they don't want to see it fall?

That actually basically describes all heroes in history, I think :>

 

[Jono]

I know there is a Great General mod, but I have no idea what it does. Also, if the idea you're talking about involves armies I'm not sure how they would work in the Civ4 combat system? If you had a maceman, crossbowman, mage army attacking a city how would you figure out who's he's attacking since the defenders get to choose the best option? In Civ3 armies were great because they got +1 movement and 2x or 3x HPs. Here you can always get promoted to make yourself more powerful so I'm not convinced armies are needed.

If your complex ideas were something else then I'm sorry that I didn't find them when I looked back.

Well I was actually talking about great people giving promotions. Armies would just have the strength and traits of all the units in them... Well, if that's possible in civ4...

 

[Kael]

Nope that was me. Tasty with coffee in the morning....

I see you're still wading through to get to the Adventurer idea loki and I were hammering out while you were sleeping....

So if I understand you then we will remove the Adventurer Great Person (a unit with the hero promotion and the ability to upgrade to a prophet, warrior or scout). Instead we will give the following great people the hero promotion and the ability to upgrade too:

Great Prophet: Prophet
Great Artist (most likely for Leaves): Hunter or Archer
Great Engineer (most likely for Runes): Axeman or Crossbowman
Great Merchant: Horseman
Great Scientist (most likely for Veil and Overlords): Adept (no hero promotion here since mages dont use XP, maybe start them with +40% str to their spells and +2 range for their spells)
Great Commander (most likely for the Order): Axeman

Keep in mind that the ability to upgrade to a unit grants the ability to upgrade to everything behind it. So the ability to upgrade to a prophet grants the ability to upgrade to all the disciples, priests, high priest, inquisitor, etc etc). That gives some of the early game/late game balance that Loki was asking about.

 

[Kael]

I suppose adventurers and heroes would be attracted to failing civz because.. its their homeland and they don't want to see it fall?

That actually basically describes all heroes in history, I think :>

I wanted to build a "rubber band" effect into the mod (to steal a term from racing games). I was thinking about having the religous units cost less and less depending on how far behind the religion was. Unfortunatly I dont have a decent way to do that (or your idea, which I also like).

 

[woodelf]

So if I understand you then we will remove the Adventurer Great Person (a unit with the hero promotion and the ability to upgrade to a prophet, warrior or scout). Instead we will give the following great people the hero promotion and the ability to upgrade too:

Great Prophet: Prophet
Great Artist (most likely for Leaves): Hunter or Archer
Great Engineer (most likely for Runes): Axeman or Crossbowman
Great Merchant: Horseman
Great Scientist (most likely for Veil and Overlords): Adept (no hero promotion here since mages dont use XP, maybe start them with +40% str to their spells and +2 range for their spells)
Great Commander (most likely for the Order): Axeman

Keep in mind that the ability to upgrade to a unit grants the ability to upgrade to everything behind it. So the ability to upgrade to a prophet grants the ability to upgrade to all the disciples, priests, high priest, inquisitor, etc etc). That gives some of the early game/late game balance that Loki was asking about.

Honestly now I don't remember what my idea was. Seriously. After loki's 2 cents and yours as well I think a mutated version of the Adventurer idea is the best, if possible within the engine. As they are Great People simply don't add anything to the feel on your mod. Sure it's nice to get free research points or cash from a merchant, but if you could have Adventurers created with the same system instead you could kill a couple of birds with one stone. If you generated Fame or Renown by building Wonders instead of Great People points then you could simulate drawing these lesser heroes to your civ.

I wasn't thinking of making them race specific per se. Simply reach 100 AP and you get Gar the Axeman. Or something like that. The only thing I see is that this will involve a lot of XML and potentially skinning work to individualize the Adventurers. You'll need names and stats and such. It might be too much work because over the course of a game you could get 80+ Adventurers with enough Wonders built by the AI. Personally I've never had more than 12 Great People, but you'd have to be prepared....

 

[woodelf]

I wanted to build a "rubber band" effect into the mod (to steal a term from racing games). I was thinking about having the religous units cost less and less depending on how far behind the religion was. Unfortunatly I dont have a decent way to do that (or your idea, which I also like).

I've never done Python so this may be flawed.....That's the disclaimer.

I know you've coded a lot of events in Python Kael and that you can have checks run every turn. Wouldn't it be possible to start checking at a certain turn number how each civ is fairing in the game (using some value system, whether it be score, power, ect) and give a small chance of acquiring help, if you went that route with Adventurers? The lower down the ladder a civ is the greater the chance of getting aid in the form of a nice unit or something. And the rates of chance would go down exponentially from the lowest civ and there would be a counter that wouldn't allow them to get help again for a set number of turns. Possible?