[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Chip56]

obelisk: +3 culture, -1 gold
market: +3 gold, -1 research
elder council: +1 research

market is a netto gain of 2, same is true for obelisk.
elder council is only +1

So if a build a market I get three gold which gain cover the costs of three to research commerce.
So a market worth 3gold if you dont research anything (rate 0% because you want to upgrade your units for example) and is worth 2 research (research rate 100%, more than 3 cities) because you dont have to drop your science rate. Its not really good IMO that a building which gives money is better for researching than a building designed to improve research.

I hope this explains why I think that elder council should be 2 research (than at least it would increase your science output by the same amount market does).

But a differnt thing:
Siege weapons are not really usefull now and still require a building which does nothing. What if you give siege workshop a + to production?

 

[drwulf88]

I have noticed that conjurors don't have to be in their own territory and out of a city to create a fire elemental. that shouldn't be to hard to fix, but I also think that you should put a limit on how many can be built. maybe 3 or 5 for each nation. I have a friend that loves to over do stuff, and as soon as he found conjurors thats all he builds. usually 25 to 30 of them. It really makes it hard to build anything else because nothing can really stand up to 20 or 30 conjurors who have movement upgrades and can make 6's everyturn. So, if you limit them and turn their restrictions on then they could be used to protect your best cities and thats it. I would like build a varity of units not just a ton of one unit. just a suggestion. Also, they get the road bonus. I think they should be like the fireballs and not get the road bonus. once again they're just too powerful and make it pointless to build anything else until the 13 or 15 hitpoint units.

 

[drwulf88]

One more thing I would like to say is that the hero's are great. It would be cool to have a second or even third barb. hero, like Orthus. The werewolf hero is cool because he can be built by anyone. I think there should be more hero's can aren't religion hero's. maybe wonders could trigger them or resource and tech. combinations. I don't have any specific ideas I just know they are a lot of fun and the more the better.

 

[ma.KaBre]

First off drwulf88, I don't want to offend you. I just give my opinion on your statements.

I have noticed that conjurors don't have to be in their own territory and out of a city to create a fire elemental. that shouldn't be to hard to fix...

As far as I know this is exactly the way it was meant to be from the beginning of this mod.

I have a friend that loves to over do stuff, and as soon as he found conjurors thats all he builds. usually 25 to 30 of them. It really makes it hard to build anything else because nothing can really stand up to 20 or 30 conjurors who have movement upgrades and can make 6's everyturn. So, if you limit them and turn their restrictions on then they could be used to protect your best cities and thats it. I would like build a varity of units not just a ton of one unit. just a suggestion.

IMO this is no problem. Whe he gets there first he's eglibile to get some bonuses. I suppose that his economy gets cripelled quite hard for building nothing but conjurers. And I don't think that connjurers should be used to defend cities actually they are offensive units
Additionally building a varity of units is a favor thing. I tend to build the same units over and over again. At least I know they do their work

Also, they get the road bonus. I think they should be like the fireballs and not get the road bonus. once again they're just too powerful and make it pointless to build anything else until the 13 or 15 hitpoint units.

Once again I have to disagree. They are human beeings and thus they should be faster on roads. For fireballs it just makes sense they don't get the bonus as they are flying.

once again they're just too powerful and make it pointless to build anything else until the 13 or 15 hitpoint units.

If your friend has an army solely composed of conjurers all you have to do is get some decent melee units and kill them. I find it quite easy to kill conjurers that way. I agree that you need quite a lot of 'em in defense but starting an offence conjurers die quite fast.

 

[Chip56]

I have noticed that conjurors don't have to be in their own territory and out of a city to create a fire elemental. that shouldn't be to hard to fix, but I also think that you should put a limit on how many can be built. maybe 3 or 5 for each nation. I have a friend that loves to over do stuff, and as soon as he found conjurors thats all he builds. usually 25 to 30 of them. It really makes it hard to build anything else because nothing can really stand up to 20 or 30 conjurors who have movement upgrades and can make 6's everyturn. So, if you limit them and turn their restrictions on then they could be used to protect your best cities and thats it. I would like build a varity of units not just a ton of one unit. just a suggestion. Also, they get the road bonus. I think they should be like the fireballs and not get the road bonus. once again they're just too powerful and make it pointless to build anything else until the 13 or 15 hitpoint units.

The description is old and has to be updated. In earlier versions you had to stay in your borders but kael changed it so you can summon everywhere.
The roadbonus is only in your own borders, so I dont think thats bad.
And I wonder how your friend got the movement promotion for his summoners since they cant lvl in 0.9 ...

 

[Chip56]

If your friend has an army solely composed of conjurers all you have to do is get some decent melee units and kill them. I find it quite easy to kill conjurers that way. I agree that you need quite a lot of 'em in defense but starting an offence conjurers die quite fast.

Or evern better use a couple of mages and a few melee units.
Many units-> many units that get hit by colleteral damage

 

[drwulf88]

ok if the description is old thats cool. It just really supprised me when I read that and then it wasn't true. I was also wondering if the forests that the elves build should give hammers when cut down. A few elves and workers can make cities very productive. that seems to be a very big advantage for the elves.

 

[drwulf88]

The description is old and has to be updated. In earlier versions you had to stay in your borders but kael changed it so you can summon everywhere.
The roadbonus is only in your own borders, so I dont think thats bad.
And I wonder how your friend got the movement promotion for his summoners since they cant lvl in 0.9 ...

I meant a movement bonus from an adapt.

 

[Fragment]

I only play this mod multi. player and usually it runs whatout a problem. The only time it screws up is when a slave is created after a battle. When that happens an out of sync message pops up and whoever is the player that created the slave must stay in the game and the others have to reconnect to him. If the player that created the slave reconnects to someone else then the slave is gone when they come back. Other than that is runs great, and if nobody has the slave civic on then the game runs complete through without a problem.

Hi, same problem here, being in a team against a few AI players. We suspect the slave creation, too. We have different civic options even though that should not be in a team game and religion (one "slavery", "octopus overlords", obviously, the other "veil").

Regards.

 

[loki1232]

But a differnt thing:
Siege weapons are not really usefull now and still require a building which does nothing. What if you give siege workshop a + to production?

I really agree here.

 

[drwulf88]

They are human beeings and thus they should be faster on roads. For fireballs it just makes sense they don't get the bonus as they are flying.

I was thinking that since fire elementals are a magical unit that there speed wouldn't be affected by man made improvements. Why can't the fire elementals fly? They are magic. It still wouldn't be a bad idea to put some sort of limit on them. 10 or 12 maybe. I just like to use all the cool units we get in this mod, and I tend to find myself mass producing conjurors, a few deffencive units to protect them, and a mage or two. Maybe thats just what armies are meant to be made up of in this mod. I would love to hear other people's opinions on this. I could just be missing the unit or tech. that counters this problem. I don't know.

 

[loki1232]

ok if the description is old thats cool. It just really supprised me when I read that and then it wasn't true. I was also wondering if the forests that the elves build should give hammers when cut down. A few elves and workers can make cities very productive. that seems to be a very big advantage for the elves.

I think that the way to fix this is to make it so that no matter what, the amount of time it takes to create a forest is the same. More elves doesn't equal a faster forest.

 

[loki1232]

I was thinking that since fire elementals are a magical unit that there speed wouldn't be affected by man made improvements. Why can't the fire elementals fly? They are magic. It still wouldn't be a bad idea to put some sort of limit on them. 10 or 12 maybe. I just like to use all the cool units we get in this mod, and I tend to find myself mass producing conjurors, a few deffencive units to protect them, and a mage or two. Maybe thats just what armies are meant to be made up of in this mod. I would love to hear other people's opinions on this. I could just be missing the unit or tech. that counters this problem. I don't know.

I agree that spells shouldn' be able to use roads.

 

[drwulf88]

I think that the way to fix this is to make it so that no matter what, the amount of time it takes to create a forest is the same. More elves doesn't equal a faster forest.

I love this idea. anything to make it even. I think that ability alone makes the elves the best religion in the game. Like i said earlier i like variety in this game and being different religions shouldn't be a penalty. It's not a major advantage, but it is an advantage that is unmatched.

 

[Xuenay]

So if a build a market I get three gold which gain cover the costs of three to research commerce.
So a market worth 3gold if you dont research anything (rate 0% because you want to upgrade your units for example) and is worth 2 research (research rate 100%, more than 3 cities) because you dont have to drop your science rate. Its not really good IMO that a building which gives money is better for researching than a building designed to improve research.

But a Market provides gold, not commerce. So it isn't worth 2 research at 100% rate, since the science ratio only affects commerce - income that's gold from the beginning isn't affected and goes directly to the treasury regardless of the science rate.

 

[AljayBoy]

I also agree that spells shouldn't be allowed to use roads, afterall, they are travelling through the air. I'm also looking forward to see how the werewolf idea pans out, sounds promising. Here is a few other ideas, apologies if they or similer ideas have already been put forward.

1. I think you should be allowed to use roads in enemy territory, i mean, how does the the enemy stop you from walking on their roads? How different to your own countries roads can they be?

2. I think that the War Elephants should have a movement of 2 or even 1 and not 3 as they have at the moment as the are not as fast horses so shouldn't get the same movement value. This is further reinforced with civilopedia also stating that elephants are slow.

3. I think there are too many limited units, if you have access to ivory then you should be able to build more than 3 War Elephants. Fair point, they are quite powerful, but with them being quite slow and large, they should be easy meat for archer units, therefore give them a -xxx% when in battle with archer units to balance this out. I also changed their withdrawal probability from 25% to 15% to take into account for their slowness.

4. Similer to above but with Knights, if I have access to horses then why should I be limited to 3 Knights? Or if Knights are to stay limited to 3, then why not have an Armoured Horseman unit which would not be quite as powerful as the Knight but would be a useful cavalry unit.

5. Instead of some spellcasters only being able to cast within their own borders, why not connect spellcasting to religion? i.e. why not make it impossible for spells to be cast in territory were the state religion is different from the spellcasters? Leaving it possible to cast in other countries were the state religion is the same; were there is no state religion and also in unclaimed territory. This could also open up the way for religion-specific spellcasters eg Fellowship of Leaves having greater spells available for their druids etc.

 

[loki1232]

1. I think you should be allowed to use roads in enemy territory, i mean, how does the the enemy stop you from walking on their roads? How different to your own countries roads can they be?

2. I think that the War Elephants should have a movement of 2 or even 1 and not 3 as they have at the moment as the are not as fast horses so shouldn't get the same movement value. This is further reinforced with civilopedia also stating that elephants are slow.

3. I think there are too many limited units, if you have access to ivory then you should be able to build more than 3 War Elephants. Fair point, they are quite powerful, but with them being quite slow and large, they should be easy meat for archer units, therefore give them a -###% when in battle with archer units to balance this out.

4. Similer to above but with Knights, if I have access to horses then why should I be limited to 3 Knights? Or if Knights are to stay limited to 3, then why not have an Armoured Horseman unit which would not be quite as powerful as the Knight but would be a useful cavalry unit.

5. Instead of some spellcasters only being able to cast within their own borders, why not connect spellcasting to religion? i.e. why not make it impossible for spells to be cast in territory were the state religion is different from the spellcasters? Leaving it possible to cast in other countries were the state religion is the same; were there is no state religion and also in unclaimed territory. This could also open up the way for religion-specific spellcasters eg Fellowship of Leaves having greater spells available for their druids etc.

1. Well if you could use enemy roads then defense would be too difficult. Also probably in real life the enemy populace along the roads would slow you down.

2. Maybe 2 movement, but starting with blitz? That way if an elephant ever caught up with your army, you'd be toast (or mush).

3 and 4. The t4 unit limits are there to make you diversify your army. Also, if you don't have access to ivory, then your army wouldn't be crippled, you'd just use camel archers instead.

5. I don't really see how that effects the game yet. Right now most spells can be cast anywhere.

 

[loki1232]

I love this idea. anything to make it even. I think that ability alone makes the elves the best religion in the game. Like i said earlier i like variety in this game and being different religions shouldn't be a penalty. It's not a major advantage, but it is an advantage that is unmatched.

Another way to do this would be to make it so that the Fellowship of Leaves doesn't get any shields from cutting down forests and jungles. Also, I really think that they should be allowed to build lumbermills on jungles.

 

[Chip56]

But a Market provides gold, not commerce. So it isn't worth 2 research at 100% rate, since the science ratio only affects commerce - income that's gold from the beginning isn't affected and goes directly to the treasury regardless of the science rate.

True it provides gold but if have many cities you have to pay upkeep.
Normally you pay the upkeep by decreasing science rate.
If you have a market you get that gold direct and dont have to decrease the rate.
So you can stay at 100% science insteadt of dropping to 70-90%.
Dues its worth a netto of 2 science.

 

[Chip56]

For example:
5 cities with 5 commerce each:
Upkeep for all is lets say 15 gold.

Normaly I would need 15 of 25 commerce for upkeep
->10 research

Now with elder concil:
paying 15 of 25 commerce upkeep
-> 10 research for commerce & 5for elder =15

Now with Market:
5*3gold=15
no need to decrease rate
So science is: 25 from commerce -5for market penalty= 20

So Market is better than elder concil for research.
And I dont thing that it should be so.

Edit:
With elder concil worth 2research as I suggested:
15 of 25 commerce for upkeep
10 research from commerce +10 from elder= 20
So it would still not be better than market but at least as good