Modding the aspects of "Game Speed"
- Thread starter King Jason
- Start date
I think the problem of too many improvements speeding up research is solved by keeping the build/construct/wonder/improvement (and everything else) rates proportionate to research. This way you cannot construct a library, for example, at a rate quicker than at default.
Just take what the Fraxis designers consider balanced to yeild a paticular tech at a given time (what we are aiming to do), and double it, tripple it, whatever you want, it should work out. Of course, adjust time respectively. This is, after all, all they did to make the different time options (epic, normal, quck).
The only problems I can think of for those of us that want to have more units to play with: keeping unit production the same means more settlers, which means more cities. Although they will grow more slowly than default, you can still have that extra yeild and trade route. This may speed research a bit, throwing off the time/tech balance slightly.
More workers can chop more forests. But thier improve time is increased and techs unlock imporvements, so they are a minimal problem.
More units=more warriors, so you could possibly get more cities, kill more barabrians, and pillage more than at default. This extra income could speed research and throw off our balance.
While these issues might be a problem, I don't think it will be a huge one, and I think it's highly playable until someone just makes a perfect mod.
Of course, if you keep unit production the same as everything else, you avoid this. But I want units, dammit!
Edit: I see now that the time intervals between normal and epic are very much disproportionate, so I guess that's what you were referring to? I'll have to look at it some more. Bleh, guess I'll just wait till somone mods it. I just hate these fast games. Why didn'
t they make a super-long one.
Just take what the Fraxis designers consider balanced to yeild a paticular tech at a given time (what we are aiming to do), and double it, tripple it, whatever you want, it should work out. Of course, adjust time respectively. This is, after all, all they did to make the different time options (epic, normal, quck).
The only problems I can think of for those of us that want to have more units to play with: keeping unit production the same means more settlers, which means more cities. Although they will grow more slowly than default, you can still have that extra yeild and trade route. This may speed research a bit, throwing off the time/tech balance slightly.
More workers can chop more forests. But thier improve time is increased and techs unlock imporvements, so they are a minimal problem.
More units=more warriors, so you could possibly get more cities, kill more barabrians, and pillage more than at default. This extra income could speed research and throw off our balance.
While these issues might be a problem, I don't think it will be a huge one, and I think it's highly playable until someone just makes a perfect mod.
Of course, if you keep unit production the same as everything else, you avoid this. But I want units, dammit!
Edit: I see now that the time intervals between normal and epic are very much disproportionate, so I guess that's what you were referring to? I'll have to look at it some more. Bleh, guess I'll just wait till somone mods it. I just hate these fast games. Why didn'
t they make a super-long one.
Adam7Eight
Emperor
Doskei said:
Well said. Any input is good input. I stated earlier that this is going to require a lot more effort and fine tuning than just raising or lowering a few percentages. The only problem is, several people are going to have to play fairly lengthy games so we have a relatively good idea of what's going on. I don't think we should sit and adjust, and then make assumptions about what can, will, or won't happen 500 turns down the road. Simply put, we ain't gonna know until we start playing long, drawn-out games. So, it's gonna be a while.
Welcome to the forums.
Thanks for the warm welcome, guys! 
[edit] another possibility to consider is that although each town can build their library only so fast, existing examples of this mod do not effectively limit the creation of new cities to the appropriate extent. Those players that found that the game picked up too much in the more advanced eras MAY have had more cities than they should have at these points. Even if the "bonus" cities didn't have libraries, that's still more total research.
Essentially what we're doing here is making units cheaper. We're slowing everything down, too, but that's all being done proportionally. The real net effect on game balance is that units are cheaper and thus faster to build. We're doing that because we want to be able to use more of those units, for longer, but there are other possible effects. A player may choose NOT to make more units, but rather to just make the same number of units (remember, for less total resources), and to put the rest of the surplus resources into improvements. My guess is that this is what is causing the lategame acceleration, and I think that's why we need a mod, to compensate for these types of situations. We're necessarily unbalancing Firaxis' game, and a player is naturally going to adjust their gameplay. The mod has to be ready to compensate for that.
That said, I agree with low. All these are theories at this point, and to make them viable mod ideas they need testing. I'm going to hash out some mod data tonight and see how it runs. I haven't even finished a game of vanilla Civ4 yet, so that bit might take a while. We'll just have to see.
I did have a question though. Does anyone know whether this game has a hard-coded maximum on the number of turns it takes to finish a research item? I know that past Civ games have had a minimum (4 turns I think in III) and a maximum (can't remember if it was 40 or 60 turns in III) duration on researching a single item. Even if you were contributing nothing to research, you'd still progress at the minimum rate. If so, that needs to be taken into account, because with drastically larger lightbulb costs for techs, some players may choose to neglect it entirely and let the "max turns" rule do their research for them, so to speak. If there is a cap, we'll want to increase it proportionally with research cost.
[edit] One last thing I wanted to note. Almost all of the changes discussed here concentrate on allowing for more epic battles and wars in each age, but then trying to keep everything else the same. I for one would like to see an "epic" game that allowed for more of everything in each age - that is, more battles but also more expansion, more improvement. Obviously this is a harder project, because you have to compensate MORE for the research potential of more and better cities, but I think that for me this is the holy grail of the "epic game" project. I think it's going to have to be a Mark II or something - once we have a good enough understanding of the game economics to (properly) balance a game with longer effective military lifespans, we (or just "I") can tackle expanding that to the civilian population.
I think I agree with you, on paper - there really shouldn't be a problem. My modifications were meant as a potential solution to the people that have tried to get it to work that way and failed, finding that the pace picks up in medieval and industrial.byrdie said:
[edit] another possibility to consider is that although each town can build their library only so fast, existing examples of this mod do not effectively limit the creation of new cities to the appropriate extent. Those players that found that the game picked up too much in the more advanced eras MAY have had more cities than they should have at these points. Even if the "bonus" cities didn't have libraries, that's still more total research.
Essentially what we're doing here is making units cheaper. We're slowing everything down, too, but that's all being done proportionally. The real net effect on game balance is that units are cheaper and thus faster to build. We're doing that because we want to be able to use more of those units, for longer, but there are other possible effects. A player may choose NOT to make more units, but rather to just make the same number of units (remember, for less total resources), and to put the rest of the surplus resources into improvements. My guess is that this is what is causing the lategame acceleration, and I think that's why we need a mod, to compensate for these types of situations. We're necessarily unbalancing Firaxis' game, and a player is naturally going to adjust their gameplay. The mod has to be ready to compensate for that.
That said, I agree with low. All these are theories at this point, and to make them viable mod ideas they need testing. I'm going to hash out some mod data tonight and see how it runs. I haven't even finished a game of vanilla Civ4 yet, so that bit might take a while. We'll just have to see.
I did have a question though. Does anyone know whether this game has a hard-coded maximum on the number of turns it takes to finish a research item? I know that past Civ games have had a minimum (4 turns I think in III) and a maximum (can't remember if it was 40 or 60 turns in III) duration on researching a single item. Even if you were contributing nothing to research, you'd still progress at the minimum rate. If so, that needs to be taken into account, because with drastically larger lightbulb costs for techs, some players may choose to neglect it entirely and let the "max turns" rule do their research for them, so to speak. If there is a cap, we'll want to increase it proportionally with research cost.
[edit] One last thing I wanted to note. Almost all of the changes discussed here concentrate on allowing for more epic battles and wars in each age, but then trying to keep everything else the same. I for one would like to see an "epic" game that allowed for more of everything in each age - that is, more battles but also more expansion, more improvement. Obviously this is a harder project, because you have to compensate MORE for the research potential of more and better cities, but I think that for me this is the holy grail of the "epic game" project. I think it's going to have to be a Mark II or something - once we have a good enough understanding of the game economics to (properly) balance a game with longer effective military lifespans, we (or just "I") can tackle expanding that to the civilian population.
Hey guys
new to the forums...but I've been dinking around with modding Civ4 since the day I got it, and gamespeed was a *major* thing to me, in all the civ's, because it makes fighting wars rather difficult when you are constantly trying to upgrade your units.
Anyways, Hi That being said...I noticed *no* one here mentioned the CIV4EraInfos.xml file....it contains a major chunk of data, which I havn't been able to test yet, but it contains research and productivity ratings which at least at first read through seem to cause this speed-up of research.
Changing the global constants of these settings of course (In GameSpeedInfos) *does* need to be done, more specifically with turns and general researching to give it a slight tweak, changing each *areas* appropriate modifications as well (instead of *every single* technology and units speeds), would greatly slow down the gamespeed, while not globally effecting productivity as much as changing the global speed settings, because it would be era independant (thus allowing you to modify the build modifiers for *each era*, to compensate for over-building of workers, settlers, etc).
Although, a combination of this with modifying some technological costs and the buildtimes of Settlers/Workers and buildings *should* be done; I've been working on that for the past few days, and am going to post that soon now too since im new to the forums
Anyways, heres a clip from the erainfos file:
Soo....heres what it looks like....
Each Era has respective percentage values for each of the variables in the GameSpeedInfos (iResearch, iBuild, etc). Inside the full file. If you look closely,
these values decrement with each area, e.g. they make the game faster and faster with each era. Now, if these values are actually *used* (I havn't been able to test them), it seems like the game is *hard set* to speed up with each area, to simulate to speeding up of technological progress in history. If this is correct, city research, tiles, etc. *are not* what make the biggest difference in massive research speed changes between the eras, that is already compensated for in the research costs. The game speeds up by base percentages with each era, plain and simple. THe gamespeed research percentages have multiple modifiers, not just the base speeds in GameSpeedInfo.
Am I making sense? Anyways, input would be nice from anyone...i'll post my mod-in-progress in another thread...
new to the forums...but I've been dinking around with modding Civ4 since the day I got it, and gamespeed was a *major* thing to me, in all the civ's, because it makes fighting wars rather difficult when you are constantly trying to upgrade your units.
Anyways, Hi
That being said...I noticed *no* one here mentioned the CIV4EraInfos.xml file....it contains a major chunk of data, which I havn't been able to test yet, but it contains research and productivity ratings which at least at first read through seem to cause this speed-up of research. Changing the global constants of these settings of course (In GameSpeedInfos) *does* need to be done, more specifically with turns and general researching to give it a slight tweak, changing each *areas* appropriate modifications as well (instead of *every single* technology and units speeds), would greatly slow down the gamespeed, while not globally effecting productivity as much as changing the global speed settings, because it would be era independant (thus allowing you to modify the build modifiers for *each era*, to compensate for over-building of workers, settlers, etc).
Although, a combination of this with modifying some technological costs and the buildtimes of Settlers/Workers and buildings *should* be done; I've been working on that for the past few days, and am going to post that soon now too since im new to the forums
Anyways, heres a clip from the erainfos file:
HTML:
<EraInfos>
<EraInfo>
<Type>ERA_ANCIENT</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_ERA_ANCIENT</Description>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_ERA_ANCIENT_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<bNoGoodies>0</bNoGoodies>
<bNoAnimals>0</bNoAnimals>
<bNoBarbUnits>0</bNoBarbUnits>
<bNoBarbCities>0</bNoBarbCities>
<iStartingUnitMultiplier>1</iStartingUnitMultiplier>
<iStartingDefenseUnits>0</iStartingDefenseUnits>
<iStartingWorkerUnits>0</iStartingWorkerUnits>
<iStartingExploreUnits>1</iStartingExploreUnits>
<iStartingGold>0</iStartingGold>
<iFreePopulation>0</iFreePopulation>
<iStartPercent>0</iStartPercent>
<iGrowthPercent>100</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>100</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>100</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>100</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>100</iResearchPercent>
<iBuildPercent>100</iBuildPercent>
<iImprovementPercent>100</iImprovementPercent>
<iGreatPeoplePercent>100</iGreatPeoplePercent>
<iCulturePercent>100</iCulturePercent>
..................Soundtrack, graphics, etc.............
</EraInfo>
............Classical, Midevil eras..........
<EraInfo>
<Type>ERA_INDUSTRIAL</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_ERA_INDUSTRIAL</Description>
<bNoGoodies>1</bNoGoodies>
<bNoAnimals>1</bNoAnimals>
<bNoBarbUnits>1</bNoBarbUnits>
<bNoBarbCities>0</bNoBarbCities>
<iStartingUnitMultiplier>3</iStartingUnitMultiplier>
<iStartingDefenseUnits>3</iStartingDefenseUnits>
<iStartingWorkerUnits>2</iStartingWorkerUnits>
<iStartingExploreUnits>2</iStartingExploreUnits>
<iStartingGold>100</iStartingGold>
<iFreePopulation>2</iFreePopulation>
<iStartPercent>40</iStartPercent>
<iGrowthPercent>80</iGrowthPercent>
<iTrainPercent>80</iTrainPercent>
<iConstructPercent>80</iConstructPercent>
<iCreatePercent>80</iCreatePercent>
<iResearchPercent>60</iResearchPercent>
<iBuildPercent>80</iBuildPercent>
<iImprovementPercent>80</iImprovementPercent>
<iGreatPeoplePercent>80</iGreatPeoplePercent>
<iCulturePercent>80</iCulturePercent>
<iAnarchyPercent>45</iAnarchyPercent>
<iSoundtrackSpace>120</iSoundtrackSpace>
...... More Eras.............Soo....heres what it looks like....
Each Era has respective percentage values for each of the variables in the GameSpeedInfos (iResearch, iBuild, etc). Inside the full file. If you look closely,
these values decrement with each area, e.g. they make the game faster and faster with each era. Now, if these values are actually *used* (I havn't been able to test them), it seems like the game is *hard set* to speed up with each area, to simulate to speeding up of technological progress in history. If this is correct, city research, tiles, etc. *are not* what make the biggest difference in massive research speed changes between the eras, that is already compensated for in the research costs. The game speeds up by base percentages with each era, plain and simple. THe gamespeed research percentages have multiple modifiers, not just the base speeds in GameSpeedInfo.
Am I making sense? Anyways, input would be nice from anyone...i'll post my mod-in-progress in another thread...
I just thought of something. Someone mentioned earlier that if we double everything (research/production times and number of turns) then we get exactly the same game except it takes twice as long.
But that is not exactly true because unit movement rates are not changed. So it may take twice as long to build a chariot but then you have twice as many turns to do stuff with that chariot at its normal rate.
So by simply doubling everything (or tripling or whatever factor you want) you are keeping the original balance in the game and you are not producing more units than originally but you get more turns in which to use your units.
You could then increase research time alone just a little but more and you would have more time (turns) before your units became obsolete.
But that is not exactly true because unit movement rates are not changed. So it may take twice as long to build a chariot but then you have twice as many turns to do stuff with that chariot at its normal rate.
So by simply doubling everything (or tripling or whatever factor you want) you are keeping the original balance in the game and you are not producing more units than originally but you get more turns in which to use your units.
You could then increase research time alone just a little but more and you would have more time (turns) before your units became obsolete.
http://members.chello.nl/j.kleine-staarman/Longer-Play.rar
1375 turns. Only works for epic gamespeed
Changed 4 files u can simply load it into MOD dir and it'll work.
Haven't had time completely test it as a game takes so long @ 1375 turns
1375 turns. Only works for epic gamespeed
Changed 4 files u can simply load it into MOD dir and it'll work.
Haven't had time completely test it as a game takes so long @ 1375 turns
Roma Victa
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2005
- Messages
- 27
Lots of great stuff in this thread so far. I've been poking around in all the xml files this evening and found one that might address the issue of creating too many settlers and workers. CIV4UnitInfos.xml has the build cost for all units. I think the build cost could be tweaked a bit for these units to keep them from breeding like small rodents. 
From what I understand, the game has a built-in problem in that research flies by in the later part of the game; I assume that's one thing you are trying to fix? And, if I understand you correctly, changing the values as we have been discussing aggravates this issue?
Good luck and great posts everyone. What really throws me off is that although these values change among sets proportionately (quick is 2/3 of normal; epic 150%), the time intervals associated with the sets are hard for me to figure out. They certainly don't scale to these proportions, so it's hard to talk about "double time and halve yearincrement if you double research," I think.
Therefore, I fold and wish you the best of luck, and look forward to playing your mod soon! ;] Please let me know if you find out how to tweak settlers/workers alone. That unitinfo file is huge, lol.
Good luck and great posts everyone. What really throws me off is that although these values change among sets proportionately (quick is 2/3 of normal; epic 150%), the time intervals associated with the sets are hard for me to figure out. They certainly don't scale to these proportions, so it's hard to talk about "double time and halve yearincrement if you double research," I think.
Therefore, I fold and wish you the best of luck, and look forward to playing your mod soon! ;] Please let me know if you find out how to tweak settlers/workers alone. That unitinfo file is huge, lol.
King Jason
Fleece-bearer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,089
Just find them in the unit info file and double (triple, whichever you're aiming to do) their shield cost.
This could make warriors be the normal 10ish turns, where as settlers could actually take about 50 turns.
Also, on the note of having more soldiers, thus having greater conquering ability, I find this to be untrue. Simply because everything I've tested so far, the AI adapts with me. IE, with the ability to create more units, they have more units as well.
So there is balance in the sense that you wont pump out 5 warriors in 5 turns (exaggerating speeds here) and be able to conquer your enemies city because he still only have one. odds are, he'll have more.
Also one thing I'm trying not to do is limit a nation for being scientific. Yes, I want the game to be slower, and for me to feel like I actually experianced the classical era. But, I don't want the possibility for me OR the AI to come firing at me with musketeers when I've just learned knights.
why? because that's a strategy as well in civ. Despite the spear Vs. tank issue in all the other ones, if you were technologically advanced it gave you an edge, even more so in this game since the spear vs tank is reduced dramatically.
So, I'm seeking to enable an equal playing field where the game is simply long. In civ2 and civ3 I could play the game for days. DAYS, and still not be at the modern era. I don't mean 48+ hours of play, but a few hourly sittings a day. So far I've come to some end in my games in just a few hours (3 or 4).
That's not good. I'd like 3 or 4 hours still using archers and horsemen. then 3 or 4 hours using maceman and pikes, etc.
I hope everyone here that's been endlessly editing these past days, eyes bleeding staring at the notepad on the screen - I wish you the best of luck in finding what you're looking for.
Oh and thanks for pointing out that Era XML, I completely missed it - it will help alot, I'm going to to keep all eras the same for right now, rather than the increase (or proposed decrease) in tech rates. That'll keep all techs multiplied by the same gamespeed, and the one factor increasing the rate of tech gathering would be Infrastructure (libraries/specialists,etc) which is what I want, because there's no reason for the first nation that discovers libraries not to have an edge in the tech race.
There's been lots of good ideas flung around - thanks to everyone that's posted and I hope you continue to come here to brainstorm, It helps alot when I'm thinking about stuff
take care.
This could make warriors be the normal 10ish turns, where as settlers could actually take about 50 turns.
Also, on the note of having more soldiers, thus having greater conquering ability, I find this to be untrue. Simply because everything I've tested so far, the AI adapts with me. IE, with the ability to create more units, they have more units as well.
So there is balance in the sense that you wont pump out 5 warriors in 5 turns (exaggerating speeds here) and be able to conquer your enemies city because he still only have one. odds are, he'll have more.
Also one thing I'm trying not to do is limit a nation for being scientific. Yes, I want the game to be slower, and for me to feel like I actually experianced the classical era. But, I don't want the possibility for me OR the AI to come firing at me with musketeers when I've just learned knights.
why? because that's a strategy as well in civ. Despite the spear Vs. tank issue in all the other ones, if you were technologically advanced it gave you an edge, even more so in this game since the spear vs tank is reduced dramatically.
So, I'm seeking to enable an equal playing field where the game is simply long. In civ2 and civ3 I could play the game for days. DAYS, and still not be at the modern era. I don't mean 48+ hours of play, but a few hourly sittings a day. So far I've come to some end in my games in just a few hours (3 or 4).
That's not good. I'd like 3 or 4 hours still using archers and horsemen. then 3 or 4 hours using maceman and pikes, etc.
I hope everyone here that's been endlessly editing these past days, eyes bleeding staring at the notepad on the screen - I wish you the best of luck in finding what you're looking for.
Oh and thanks for pointing out that Era XML, I completely missed it - it will help alot, I'm going to to keep all eras the same for right now, rather than the increase (or proposed decrease) in tech rates. That'll keep all techs multiplied by the same gamespeed, and the one factor increasing the rate of tech gathering would be Infrastructure (libraries/specialists,etc) which is what I want, because there's no reason for the first nation that discovers libraries not to have an edge in the tech race.
There's been lots of good ideas flung around - thanks to everyone that's posted and I hope you continue to come here to brainstorm, It helps alot when I'm thinking about stuff
take care.
jpinard
Martian
King Jason said:Just find them in the unit info file and double (triple, whichever you're aiming to do) their shield cost.
This could make warriors be the normal 10ish turns, where as settlers could actually take about 50 turns.
Also, on the note of having more soldiers, thus having greater conquering ability, I find this to be untrue. Simply because everything I've tested so far, the AI adapts with me. IE, with the ability to create more units, they have more units as well.
So there is balance in the sense that you wont pump out 5 warriors in 5 turns (exaggerating speeds here) and be able to conquer your enemies city because he still only have one. odds are, he'll have more.
Also one thing I'm trying not to do is limit a nation for being scientific. Yes, I want the game to be slower, and for me to feel like I actually experianced the classical era. But, I don't want the possibility for me OR the AI to come firing at me with musketeers when I've just learned knights.
why? because that's a strategy as well in civ. Despite the spear Vs. tank issue in all the other ones, if you were technologically advanced it gave you an edge, even more so in this game since the spear vs tank is reduced dramatically.
So, I'm seeking to enable an equal playing field where the game is simply long. In civ2 and civ3 I could play the game for days. DAYS, and still not be at the modern era. I don't mean 48+ hours of play, but a few hourly sittings a day. So far I've come to some end in my games in just a few hours (3 or 4).
That's not good. I'd like 3 or 4 hours still using archers and horsemen. then 3 or 4 hours using maceman and pikes, etc.
I hope everyone here that's been endlessly editing these past days, eyes bleeding staring at the notepad on the screen - I wish you the best of luck in finding what you're looking for.
Oh and thanks for pointing out that Era XML, I completely missed it - it will help alot, I'm going to to keep all eras the same for right now, rather than the increase (or proposed decrease) in tech rates. That'll keep all techs multiplied by the same gamespeed, and the one factor increasing the rate of tech gathering would be Infrastructure (libraries/specialists,etc) which is what I want, because there's no reason for the first nation that discovers libraries not to have an edge in the tech race.
There's been lots of good ideas flung around - thanks to everyone that's posted and I hope you continue to come here to brainstorm, It helps alot when I'm thinking about stuff
take care.
Excellent points Jason.
Because my eyes are bleeding too, and it seems every supposed answer brings up more questions... did you ever post you current final edits? Here's an outline of my goals:
* More time in each era, so uf we're at war, we can experience a dull war in that epic era. WWII being a prime example... if the nations get to that point - I don't want to blow beyond that tech so fast that the units used are obsolete before the war hits its natural conclusion.
* BALANCE. I want the longer epic without being forced to take a war-front to win.
* Continue to curb ICE. I like the direction Firaxis took with this, and want to keep that intact.
* Great People. I think this is a potential imbalancer right now. In fact I think for the epic game everyone is describing, the Great People are a wildcard that jeapordizes that balance too much. It reminds me of Risk when you were "playing to get cards that gave bonuses", instead of playing for more strategy. You could have a 2-player game with thwe whole world split 50-50. One card set later you've blown through the world... game over.
* Irony - who says Epic is balanced right now? I think it's funny we so hard on ourselves to keep the Epic balance - but personally, I don't see Epic being perfectly balanced to begin with since you hit the end of the game too quickly.
What I would really love to see - is the best theories of what to change compiled into one post (like what you've already began Jason), the additional files, etc. Like has been mentioned before if we get one basic mod that increases everything in equal proportions, then we can sprout addional mods to get the "flavor" we want. I'd love to see 3-5 Epic settings to chose from on the menu so we can tailor each game more specifically to our current game needs.
Sorry this post has rambled on - but I have a question for those that have completed testing. Have you enjoyed your "modded" epic game more than the default? If so, then that's a success
King Jason
Fleece-bearer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,089
I definately agree with your great person statement. That's something that's been on my mind - how to keep them in the game (because there nifty) but how to not make them overpowered.
My current Idea is two fold, first. Remove the ability for them to contribute to tech discovery. Second, halve the merchant and artist ability.
Allowing the super citizen and golden ages I think is fine, as it goes back to rewarding the civ that has a wonderful infrastructure in their civilization. They shouldn't be punished simply because they're able to pump out a great person every X turns and initiate a golden age, or stock their cities with super specialists. but 4000 instant culture, and a possible 1500 gold (I've got that much before) and tech discovery is a bit much. Especially with how we're modding the game. Technology will become more and more important the harder we make it to research, which is a good thing, and as I said in my above post, I DON'T want to remove the ability for a civ to get ahead - however, I want that to be representative of their civs prosperity as far as infrastructure goes. Libraries, specialized cities and such. But the great person I feel... is too great
To answer your last question though, yes, ever since I've started modding I've enjoyed each game more than the last. some games were strictly test games, but most of the time (how I test) I just make my changes, then play a game. Take not of what happens, what I didn't like happening (to the extent of balance, not personal score), make some more changes, then play again.
And this has definately expanded into more thant just Gamespeed XML now, there are SEVERAL other areas I'm beginning to realize I'd like to change.
One I can think of off the top of my head is modern day unit resource requirements. It seems that nearly all (if not, all) modern units (tanks, Battlships,etc) that require Oil as a strategic resource can run on Uranium too. Now this makes some sense, as there ARE nuclear powerd vehicles. However, it severely reduces the emphasis on oil as a strategic resource. So I might change it so that all modern units require only oil.
On the subject of oil - navies. Alot of people dispute the usefulness of navies. I have to say they are indeed a bit more useful this time around, however they do lack in certain areas, such as bombardment. Certain things like that don't lie within the simple scope of XML as far as I know. So I'm also contemplating the possibility of restricting the oil resource to only be place in sea squares. Of course I'd have to change when the player gains the ability to make offshore platforms. But these two changes (the dependancy on oil, and the location of oil) would dramatically increase the importance of Navy.
Since every modern mechanized unit would require Oil, and all the Oil would be in the sea. Ignoring your Navy would be at a severe risk, especially since I'm sure you've all noticed that the A.I. Pillages ocean improvements left and right if you go to war. This would mean the loss of your oil supplies during war time would litterally stop you from producing about half of your military force - the stronger half. Also, pillaging your enemies oil would do the same, thus giving you an edge against them.
In any case that's just one example. From reading here, and looking in other threads at ideas that are being flung around, my mind has expanded it's scope on modding this game tenfold.
My current Idea is two fold, first. Remove the ability for them to contribute to tech discovery. Second, halve the merchant and artist ability.
Allowing the super citizen and golden ages I think is fine, as it goes back to rewarding the civ that has a wonderful infrastructure in their civilization. They shouldn't be punished simply because they're able to pump out a great person every X turns and initiate a golden age, or stock their cities with super specialists. but 4000 instant culture, and a possible 1500 gold (I've got that much before) and tech discovery is a bit much. Especially with how we're modding the game. Technology will become more and more important the harder we make it to research, which is a good thing, and as I said in my above post, I DON'T want to remove the ability for a civ to get ahead - however, I want that to be representative of their civs prosperity as far as infrastructure goes. Libraries, specialized cities and such. But the great person I feel... is too great
To answer your last question though, yes, ever since I've started modding I've enjoyed each game more than the last. some games were strictly test games, but most of the time (how I test) I just make my changes, then play a game. Take not of what happens, what I didn't like happening (to the extent of balance, not personal score), make some more changes, then play again.
And this has definately expanded into more thant just Gamespeed XML now, there are SEVERAL other areas I'm beginning to realize I'd like to change.
One I can think of off the top of my head is modern day unit resource requirements. It seems that nearly all (if not, all) modern units (tanks, Battlships,etc) that require Oil as a strategic resource can run on Uranium too. Now this makes some sense, as there ARE nuclear powerd vehicles. However, it severely reduces the emphasis on oil as a strategic resource. So I might change it so that all modern units require only oil.
On the subject of oil - navies. Alot of people dispute the usefulness of navies. I have to say they are indeed a bit more useful this time around, however they do lack in certain areas, such as bombardment. Certain things like that don't lie within the simple scope of XML as far as I know. So I'm also contemplating the possibility of restricting the oil resource to only be place in sea squares. Of course I'd have to change when the player gains the ability to make offshore platforms. But these two changes (the dependancy on oil, and the location of oil) would dramatically increase the importance of Navy.
Since every modern mechanized unit would require Oil, and all the Oil would be in the sea. Ignoring your Navy would be at a severe risk, especially since I'm sure you've all noticed that the A.I. Pillages ocean improvements left and right if you go to war. This would mean the loss of your oil supplies during war time would litterally stop you from producing about half of your military force - the stronger half. Also, pillaging your enemies oil would do the same, thus giving you an edge against them.
In any case that's just one example. From reading here, and looking in other threads at ideas that are being flung around, my mind has expanded it's scope on modding this game tenfold.
Superb ideas being flung around here guys. Anything that tweaks the game in the right direction will be wonderful. Any chance you'll post a file to be tested? I'm sure there are some of us who would love to play around with some of your modifications, but don't have the sack to make the changes themselves.
JumpinDuck
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2005
- Messages
- 5
Well, I've been playing for quite some time now, and it was exactly as I thought: The 2 years/turn middle ages was too long, and riflemen and grenadiers appear in great numbers around 1200AD. Until 1100 everything was perfect. I know it's not that much of a deal for some, but I like to have years as some sort of indicator of technological progress. Alternative would be to just start counting years from 0, as it's a bit strange to refer to Jesus' birth while everybody is pagan and christianity is far, far away- and this would make things ok as there would be no "oh my god Russians have Grenadiers in 12th century" shock like I had, because there simply would be no 12th century as we know it, they would simply be the most advanced civilization.
As was stated, the problem is that cities develop and technologies start comming out at a much faster rate than before. I guess it would help a LOT to edit the file jaynus found, if that's what it seems to be. So medieval technologies and higher should be drastically slowed down. By the time you start building universities, if turns advance game by 1 or 2 years, you'll come to jet era waaaay to early.
A question: The "<iUnitDiscoverPercent></iUnitDiscoverPercent>". Does it mean that if the research rate is say 300, than if we put the unitdiscover thing at 200, it would mean that only 2/3 of research points would be obtained from Great Scientists ability to discover tech, and if it's 300 than it would be discovered automatically? It's my assumption, but I'm not sure, haven't tested it.
P.S.
I don't like the idea of slowing city growth. It's in my oppinion the very point of "epic game" to have relatively developed cities already in ancient age, and this is the very thing that allows player to "feel" each age. It's been silly in default "epic" to have only one city for a long time, because it took you 2000 years to build that damn settler. So I would be against it. It would probably be much better to either edit each tech's requirement, or edit the era file (which seems to be a much easier and more elegant approach) to slow down the science development in middle ages and later eras.
As was stated, the problem is that cities develop and technologies start comming out at a much faster rate than before. I guess it would help a LOT to edit the file jaynus found, if that's what it seems to be. So medieval technologies and higher should be drastically slowed down. By the time you start building universities, if turns advance game by 1 or 2 years, you'll come to jet era waaaay to early.
A question: The "<iUnitDiscoverPercent></iUnitDiscoverPercent>". Does it mean that if the research rate is say 300, than if we put the unitdiscover thing at 200, it would mean that only 2/3 of research points would be obtained from Great Scientists ability to discover tech, and if it's 300 than it would be discovered automatically? It's my assumption, but I'm not sure, haven't tested it.
P.S.
I don't like the idea of slowing city growth. It's in my oppinion the very point of "epic game" to have relatively developed cities already in ancient age, and this is the very thing that allows player to "feel" each age. It's been silly in default "epic" to have only one city for a long time, because it took you 2000 years to build that damn settler.
So I would be against it. It would probably be much better to either edit each tech's requirement, or edit the era file (which seems to be a much easier and more elegant approach) to slow down the science development in middle ages and later eras.
King Jason
Fleece-bearer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,089
I took a browse in the era file and I'm nearly positive it doesn't do what it was claimed to do. Which is unfortunate.
The era file edits the information when you select the Era you want to play as, as an option. Hence why "startingunits" is located in there too.
I went and tested it and it was shown to be true, all those files directly effect the era you choose to start in. Which makes sense, because if someone chooses for a later era game start, and they only have one city, discovering techs will be a HUGE hassle, since the technology cost increases as you get higher.
Also, that's another fact I used in concluding that this only edits the choosing of an era as an option - Technology naturally becomes more expensive as you move up through the tech tree. Having a seperate modifer for the eras that would reduce their cost is just redundant.
The increased cost wouldn't exist in the first place if that were the case.
Though there is no way to 100% test the effect of Erainfo XML on a normal Ancient start with all the other eras modified - I for one, am fairly positive editing it will not have the effect desired on our games.
The era file edits the information when you select the Era you want to play as, as an option. Hence why "startingunits" is located in there too.
I went and tested it and it was shown to be true, all those files directly effect the era you choose to start in. Which makes sense, because if someone chooses for a later era game start, and they only have one city, discovering techs will be a HUGE hassle, since the technology cost increases as you get higher.
Also, that's another fact I used in concluding that this only edits the choosing of an era as an option - Technology naturally becomes more expensive as you move up through the tech tree. Having a seperate modifer for the eras that would reduce their cost is just redundant.
The increased cost wouldn't exist in the first place if that were the case.
Though there is no way to 100% test the effect of Erainfo XML on a normal Ancient start with all the other eras modified - I for one, am fairly positive editing it will not have the effect desired on our games.
JumpinDuck
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2005
- Messages
- 5
King Jason said:
Good point. Still, dumber things exist.
King Jason
Fleece-bearer
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,089
I agree.
This post is regarding my earlier comment about oil - I actually went back and checked to see which units did have the "oil OR uranium" requirement, as it turns out, it's only the naval vessels, which makes absolute sense (it did anyway), regardless, I'm still toying with the idea of Sea oil only. Simply because that would make Navies the head of one of the most important strategic parts of warfare - disabling an opponents resource and supply. This would make both HAVING a Navy and USING a navy very viable.
This post is regarding my earlier comment about oil - I actually went back and checked to see which units did have the "oil OR uranium" requirement, as it turns out, it's only the naval vessels, which makes absolute sense (it did anyway), regardless, I'm still toying with the idea of Sea oil only. Simply because that would make Navies the head of one of the most important strategic parts of warfare - disabling an opponents resource and supply. This would make both HAVING a Navy and USING a navy very viable.
jpinard
Martian
You can make oil show up at a lesser rate overall. It would be best if it could show up at a lesser % on land and a greater % in the ocean. That would keep more of a random character to the oil resource while still accomplishing the goal of naval importance.
Does it make more sense to everyone to use the the triple figure option - then edit the research costs for rennaissance period types and later? We could create a slight logrithmic scale to reign it in. Right now it's like an avalanch that grows faster and larger as it careens down a mountain. Now this idea is NOT realistic, since in the last 20 years humankind has learned more than the previous 20,000 years... however for the sake of gameplay I think that's a huge thing to amend. With more basic edits we can have those nice long chariot wars and the like already - but we can't get it in modern times. I'd be hapy to go in and edit all the research values by a slowly increasing % as the era's progress from where-ever you all deem appropriate. We could just not worry about turn/year listing until we get a gamepace that feels perfect. And I'd still strongly suggest we not use the 2050 game end victory condition. That way we could spend many more turns in the Modern era and actually complete our games.
Jason - Your consensus on Great People is right on, and I like the edits you've suggested. They still need to be important, people need to be rewarded for them... but not to the extent that cripples the long-term balance of the game. Ironically, I don't like winning a game because I got a Great Person who blew the world power balance in my favor to an extreme degree.
Does it make more sense to everyone to use the the triple figure option - then edit the research costs for rennaissance period types and later? We could create a slight logrithmic scale to reign it in. Right now it's like an avalanch that grows faster and larger as it careens down a mountain. Now this idea is NOT realistic, since in the last 20 years humankind has learned more than the previous 20,000 years... however for the sake of gameplay I think that's a huge thing to amend. With more basic edits we can have those nice long chariot wars and the like already - but we can't get it in modern times. I'd be hapy to go in and edit all the research values by a slowly increasing % as the era's progress from where-ever you all deem appropriate. We could just not worry about turn/year listing until we get a gamepace that feels perfect. And I'd still strongly suggest we not use the 2050 game end victory condition. That way we could spend many more turns in the Modern era and actually complete our games.
Jason - Your consensus on Great People is right on, and I like the edits you've suggested. They still need to be important, people need to be rewarded for them... but not to the extent that cripples the long-term balance of the game. Ironically, I don't like winning a game because I got a Great Person who blew the world power balance in my favor to an extreme degree.
Thanks to all for the posts and especially King Jason for starting this thread. Tons of great ideas and I like all of the concerns.
I (like some others have posted) am just looking for a longer game and more turns to play with my units before they become outdated. I don't want lots of extra units. I do not want to change the game balance for now... Heck I haven't even played a whole gameyet. But the several games I've played half way through moved awefully fast!
As mentioned in post #106. Just making the game longer does have a dramatic effect on overall gameplay. Each unit becomes much more important in the game. It is also much more realistic so that now my Caravel and explorers won't spend 100 years sailing roundtrip to the New World and back. They would all die of old age before ever reaching their destination... I am planning on trying out a Quadruple slowing of the game in all aspects and see how it goes. I will post my findings later.
One question? Why the fear of Great people messing up the game balance? If it takes twice or three or four times as long to make a great person it won't mess up getting the free tech because it is all relative... That is unless you feel that they are unbalanced in the game at any speed?
I (like some others have posted) am just looking for a longer game and more turns to play with my units before they become outdated. I don't want lots of extra units. I do not want to change the game balance for now... Heck I haven't even played a whole gameyet. But the several games I've played half way through moved awefully fast!
As mentioned in post #106. Just making the game longer does have a dramatic effect on overall gameplay. Each unit becomes much more important in the game. It is also much more realistic so that now my Caravel and explorers won't spend 100 years sailing roundtrip to the New World and back. They would all die of old age before ever reaching their destination... I am planning on trying out a Quadruple slowing of the game in all aspects and see how it goes. I will post my findings later.
One question? Why the fear of Great people messing up the game balance? If it takes twice or three or four times as long to make a great person it won't mess up getting the free tech because it is all relative... That is unless you feel that they are unbalanced in the game at any speed?
