[Modmodmod] RFC:Europe Extra Civs

[Morholt]

There's also an error in Victory.py, line 507: Catolicism should be Catholicism.

Oh crap. It doesn't count if the Baltic cities are owned by your vassal? I vassalized Prussia... Does that mean all I can do is hope they break away?

New hotfix in first post.

Vassals don't count, they generally don't for control type UHV's. I guess demand all their resources and then declare war on all their neighbors? Or demand that they change civics back and forth until they collapse from instability?

 

[Opera]

Oh right, I'll try that, thanks

 

[Sian]

Norways second UHV seems to be placed way to late ... both historically and gamely (it forces you to fight with England

could there be made a list in first post with the protential unions?

 

[Morholt]

When I was testing them, I thought doing both UHV's before 1066 was a bit too difficult, since they start later than the Norse. Can you do it? Historically it corresponds to when Norway lost the Hebrides to Scotland.

 

[ezzlar]

Moroccos first UHV is kinda hard. Its both heavy expansion, a few independents cities along the NA coast and the Cordoban core cities.

The second UHV is also hard. Three cities with 5000 culture and a late start is though. Specially combined with UHV#1.

Third UHV is ok.

UP is very strong, UB is meh and UU is not that good.

 

[Morholt]

UHV1 depends a lot on how strong Cordoba is. It is generally very difficult. UHV2 is fairly easy in comparison, all you have to do is basically spawn 3 Great Artists.

 

[youtien]

The Norse disappeared, and the game crashes every time I tried to start.

 

[ezzlar]

UHV1 depends a lot on how strong Cordoba is. It is generally very difficult. UHV2 is fairly easy in comparison, all you have to do is basically spawn 3 Great Artists.

What is the best way of spawning artists before Drama?

 

[Morholt]

Norse disappearing is intentional, they are replaced by Norway and Denmark.

There are not supposed to be any crashes, did you follow the installation instructions precisely? You need to download RFCE and make a copy of it, then extract RFCE++ into the copied folder.

Artists can be spawned early by using the Apprenticeship civic.

 

[AbsintheRed]

OK, thanks for the info. So if the master gets expanded stability maps, +1 base stability per city, and all stability buildings in flipped cities are removed (so you can rebuild them), that might solve the problem.

In this case the +1 base stability per city should be temporary

 

[Morholt]

Currently the +1 (permanent) stability per city is AI only.

 

[youtien]

Problem solved. Tried Danish last night, all 3 UHV are about conquering and controlling, I felt a bit boring. By starting Huscarls and some mercs I easily conquered Norway, made them surrender with only Nidaros remaining. The Sweden could be some challenge, but I left the game.

 

[rigo92]

The union system is nice and all, I got into union talks with Sweden when I was playing Norway, and I actually got to lead the union. The only thing thats annoying is the AI´s bad city choice, the worst expression of that is when they have all the space in the world and yet they choose to literally build cities 2 tiles away from one another. It would be great if we got a dialog box like the one you get when you culture-flip a city with the options "Yes! install a new gobernor" and "No! Disband the city" for each city absorbed. That way we keep only the cities that are worth it. This would be especially important for a mega-union such as France + Spain, where absorbing all cities could be problematic stability-wise and in many cases you would get some unnecesary rubbish cities.

 

[Morholt]

It has come up as a suggestion before, I'll think about it.

 

[Opera]

The Union system is already good enough as it is - you can literally absorb a whole civ! - I don't think this is necessary. Unions aren't necessary either, you can avoid them.

 

[MariusMR]

Sorry to just bust in here, but I've been playing SoI and RFCE for about a month now, and discovered RFCE++ about a week ago.

I really love all three of these, and in particular RFCE++ as I think the latter adds a lot of historical value to the game.

Prior to my discovery of these three modmod(mod)s, the game was gathering dust on a shelf, so I'd like to thank all of you - and particularly the modders and other contributors, for an awesome new game!

I've had a lot of time on my hands and played quite a few ++ games, so I thought I'd provide you with some feedback and, where applicable, general recommendations / suggestions.

Norway

• I personally feel that the completion dates for UHV 1 and 2 need to be switched. It is actually very easy to complete UHV 1 within a few turns after the Scots arrive (and avoiding a late war with England / France in Mercia and Normandy), and building Vinland took only 12 turns in Arendal (my capital, see below). Accumulating the required Viking points before 1066 (especially since it was increased from 30 to 50 from the original RFCE) is very difficult, particularly as the "conquerable" cities in Scandinavia and Britain are small (1pt per population) and there are no major naval powers in the Baltic at the time. It forces me into the Mediterranean, and even then I just manage 30 before the English arrive in 1066.
• I would recommend shifting the Norwegian spawn position to Norway proper and not Vestfold, and instead adding Vestfold as a control requirement to UHV 1. It is rather unfortunate that, when I play(ed) as Denmark, that I have to conquer the Norwegian capital and practically force them to collapse (I wanted to see the Danish-Norwegian Union, which subsequently never happened). Arendal is not a very good capital, historically, as it is a relatively 'young' settlement in Scandinavian terms. I would suggest Stavanger, but generally a city in Norway proper.

Sweden

• Not much to add on the first UHV (six cities requirement), as it is generally easy and even unnecessary to wage war against Novgorod (which I did anyway, and raised their cities in Novgorod to make room in southern Karelia for 'better' city placement).
• In general I feel conquering / razing cities of another Civ based on religious differences is a bit silly, and rather difficult as the northern most country at a time when, historically, most of your neighbours were Protestant and the Catholics congregated around the Mediterranean.
• Owing to a general lack of feudal hierarchies and structures in Scandinavia, wouldn't a second UHV for Sweden to be the first to adopt Free Peasantry / Free Labour (whichever comes last) be more appropriate? Consider the last paragraph of this Wiki entry -> Click!
• Could the third UHV be reworked to correspond better to the Swedish Empire (see here with a termination date of 1660? This would translate into controlling all of Sweden proper, Jamtland, Gotland, Finland, Karelia Estonia, Livonia, and the coastal cities in Novgorod, Courland, Prussia, Pomerania, and Brandenburg by 1660 (although I have reservations about Lübeck actually being in Brandenburg believing it should instead be a 2x3 separate and independent province having been the Hanseatic League founding city, but anyway! )
• I don't know if it was meant to play out that way, but no matter what I tried (or how my relationship with Norway was going), Norway always refused / refuses talks for the Magnus Union. Is this intentional?

Denmark

• Nothing to say about first UHV, very easy before English spawn anyway, but see above comment about Norwegian capital.
• Same applies to the Kalmar Union, very simple considering the actually Union did happen and Norway was collapsed allowing easy pickings in those provinces. The only pain was slowly researching astronomy to settle on Iceland. I would suggest adding a small province between Saxony / Denmark on the map corresponding to the modern-day Schleswig-Holstein. The area could be a settlement / control requirement for Denmark and Germany / Prussia (see below). Technically Lübeck could also be in this province.
• I agree with those who contend that three conquest UHVs are rather unexciting. The status and stature of Copenhagen / Roskilde in the Kalmar and Danish-Norwegian kingdoms was always a point of contention in Sweden and Norway. Therefore I would suggest a third UHV for Denmark that requires something that would make Roskilde / Copenhagen live up to this historical dominance in terms of politics and culture. I would suggest accumulating 5 000 - 10 000 culture points in Roskilde [em]and[/em], similar to the new Prussian UHV, settling a particular number of GPs in the city, although if possible, requiring a set number (say 10), of which one must be a scientist, a merchant, a spy, an artist, a prophet and an engineer (or whichever combination would be suitable). The diversity would reflect the city's political, religious, cultural, scientific and general dominance.

Prussia

I love the addition of Prussia, but somehow feel that the latest UHVs fail to demand the Old Duchy and Brandenburg-Prussia to live up to its real, historical 'glory'.

The Prussian UB comes very late, I've never actually seen the Prussian UU (does it exist?), and I can generally only start incorporating and creating Teutonic Knights 10 - 15 turns after Prussia spawns because the horse (north of Königsberg) and Iron (west of Riga) is unworked. This is a major impediment considering the Order starts off at war with Novgorod who is soon joined by Lithuania. Additionally, if Novgorod controls Reval it doesn't flip, necessitating conquest, and similarly they almost always settle Pskov which is also in the UHV-1 control area (Estonia, I think).

Also Poland settles Danzig / Gdansk just one spot west of Königsberg which is a real pain and rather unfortunate. Similarly, Poland has a habit of settling in Brandenburg (particularly Stettin) which is, I suspect, a major cause of their frequent premature collapse (see below).

Although the Seven Years War is a real and historical fact, I think it is rather impractical to expect Prussia to travel to Spain (and in my current game, wage war against their best friends in Moscow and Stockholm ). Poland, Lithuania, Germany and France have all collapsed and Austria has slowly started their own Anschluss in Germany!

I did like the previous expansionist third UHV for Prussia and think it should be reintroduced, something to the effect of a historically inaccurate and premature German Confederation or relating somehow to the "German Question". The latter would surely put Prussia at war with Austria and France should Prussia be required to pursue the Großdeutsche Lösung ("Greater German solution") with it as the dominant power in a Protestant German Empire and not Austria. This would require Prussia to control specific provinces and be Protestant by 1756 (to prevent the historical "Diplomatic Revolution" and the Seven Years War by effectively destroying Austria.

I would envision that this third UHV would require Prussia to have a delicate balance between stability and expansion, and control the following provinces as a Protestant nation in / by 1756: Prussia, Pomerania, Brandenburg, Saxony, Franconia, Lorraine (conflict with France), Swabia, Bavaria, Austria, Bohemia, Silesia, Moravia, Greater Poland, Lesser Poland, and Masovia (I think?). The only solid Provinces should be Prussia and Brandenburg.

It would be both challenging and give something to do while waiting for the 15 GPs to make their appearance (in 1612 I was at 9). Especially with so many of those provinces being "unstable". It would require an intricate balance of stability and actually use the UB of Prussia (along with the normal stability-boosting buildings).

The Netherlands
I haven't played with the Dutch as they just come around way too late (which is why I haven't played with Sweden prior to RFCE++ Alpha 4 either). Could their spawn date not be moved to the 1482 Habsburg Netherlands as Austrian vassal until they / you convert to Protestantism? Just a thought.

In terms of general discussions about colonies, and pertaining to the Dutch specifically in other threads, I would advocate for a set number of colonies for a UHV including ones that the civ historically controlled.

I.e. the Dutch should build 4 colonies including Cape Town, the British and Dutch could vie for control over that particular colony. I just think it is rather pointless currently building 8, or 6, or the most colonies as a particular civ and in any particular combination.


Unions
The Unions are a great addition and I love them!

I see them regularly in the game, particularly the Union of the Crowns, Krewo, Castille-Aragon, the Iberian Union, the Burgundian Inheritance (and its breaking ), and the Danish-Norwegian and Kalmar Union.

As player I've 'participated' and 'succeeded' in the Kalmar, Krewo and Castille-Aragon and Iberian Unions and they're great. Although pre-Alpha 4 Krewo nearly broke my Poland.

Kiev seems to survive much more often now, but I have yet to see a Muscovy-Kievan and / or Polish-Kievan Union.

I really haven't played until 1700 yet to see the Spanish-French Union, even as Spain, and Hungary is either very strong or dead by 1540 so no Austria-Hungary as yet, and no Ottoman unions either.

I was a bit irked at the fact that Burgundy, as my vassal at the time, was inherited by France. I was playing as Spain and was trying to keep France alive and happy for the Spanish Succession so I didn't mind though.

General Feedback

• Is it possible to hardcode a very strong aversion to a particular religion for specific players? I.e. I've seen a Catholic Bulgaria on many occasions, with Simeon I even leading a few crusades, and similarly I've seen the Islamic Danish Sultanate in 1209 (when I 'spawned' as Sweden), and simply because Islam had somehow spread to Roskilde. Both an Islamic Denmark and Catholic Bulgaria are, in historical terms, incredibly improbable, especially as the latter was a bastion of Orthodoxy (similar to Muscovy, who I often see as Catholic (and even Protestant). Can an aversion be hardcoded to prevent their (early) adoption / conversion? Perhaps spawn Catholic missionaries in Denmark and Norway a few turns after their spawn?
• Similar to the above, Cordoba now converts to Catholicism readily and early (the Duchy of Andalusia), preventing defensive crusades and its necessary obliteration. It then survives to become one of Europe's greater powers (and a Catholic nation ). Is there a way to both prevent Cordoba's Catholic inclinations and ensure its historical collapse?
• There seems to be a missing text for when Novgorod becomes either a vassal to someone or Prussia's vassal, as its dynamic name isn't as much dynamic as non-existent (it reads something like TEXT_NOV21_ or something).

I think that's all for now?

Thanks again for a great addition to the game, and please let me know if there's anything specific I could do or look into.

 

[civ_king]

If Aragon emerges dominant in the union with Castile I think they should be able to unite with Portugal in the Iberian union. Likewise with the Scandinavian countries and perhaps even a fused Commonwealth with Lithuania as #1 uniting with Kiev.

 

[Morholt]

Sorry to just bust in here, but I've been playing SoI and RFCE for about a month now, and discovered RFCE++ about a week ago.

Don't apologize! All feedback is quite valuable.

I personally feel that the completion dates for UHV 1 and 2 need to be switched. It is actually very easy to complete UHV 1 within a few turns after the Scots arrive (and avoiding a late war with England / France in Mercia and Normandy), and building Vinland took only 12 turns in Arendal (my capital, see below). Accumulating the required Viking points before 1066 (especially since it was increased from 30 to 50 from the original RFCE) is very difficult, particularly as the "conquerable" cities in Scandinavia and Britain are small (1pt per population) and there are no major naval powers in the Baltic at the time. It forces me into the Mediterranean, and even then I just manage 30 before the English arrive in 1066.

I somewhat agree, perhaps the viking point system should be replaced entirely with a new UHV. The reasoning behind increasing the points required was so that the player would be forced to concentrate on that goal first and not try to go for both at the same time.

I would recommend shifting the Norwegian spawn position to Norway proper and not Vestfold, and instead adding Vestfold as a control requirement to UHV 1. It is rather unfortunate that, when I play(ed) as Denmark, that I have to conquer the Norwegian capital and practically force them to collapse (I wanted to see the Danish-Norwegian Union, which subsequently never happened). Arendal is not a very good capital, historically, as it is a relatively 'young' settlement in Scandinavian terms. I would suggest Stavanger, but generally a city in Norway proper.

If you settle at the starting point you get Tonsberg, which was the de facto capital of Norway until the 13th century. Other possibilities might be Bjorgvin or Oslo. Vestfold is part of Norway proper, the fact that the other province is named Norway is slightly unfortunate. Perhaps it should be called Hordaland, Bergenhus, or Western Norway instead?

Not much to add on the first UHV (six cities requirement), as it is generally easy and even unnecessary to wage war against Novgorod (which I did anyway, and raised their cities in Novgorod to make room in southern Karelia for 'better' city placement).

Perhaps it should be increased to eight?

In general I feel conquering / razing cities of another Civ based on religious differences is a bit silly, and rather difficult as the northern most country at a time when, historically, most of your neighbours were Protestant and the Catholics congregated around the Mediterranean.

This UHV is based on the Thirty Years' War, an extremely destructive war where the Swedish armies followed the principle of "war feeding war", ie paying for your armier by large-scale looting. Germany was virtually depopulated as a result, see for example this map

Owing to a general lack of feudal hierarchies and structures in Scandinavia, wouldn't a second UHV for Sweden to be the first to adopt Free Peasantry / Free Labour (whichever comes last) be more appropriate? Consider the last paragraph of this Wiki entry -> Click!

I prefer one medieval UHV and two early modern UHV's since most of Sweden's significance was during the early modern period.

Could the third UHV be reworked to correspond better to the Swedish Empire (see here with a termination date of 1660? This would translate into controlling all of Sweden proper, Jamtland, Gotland, Finland, Karelia Estonia, Livonia, and the coastal cities in Novgorod, Courland, Prussia, Pomerania, and Brandenburg by 1660 (although I have reservations about Lübeck actually being in Brandenburg believing it should instead be a 2x3 separate and independent province having been the Hanseatic League founding city, but anyway! )

This seems like a very similar UHV though? Except in this one you don't have to conquer Denmark. The 3rd Swedish UHV was mean as the "fantasy" UHV, complete control of the Baltic was the ultimate ambition of Swedish expansionism during the 17th and 18th centuries.

I don't know if it was meant to play out that way, but no matter what I tried (or how my relationship with Norway was going), Norway always refused / refuses talks for the Magnus Union. Is this intentional?

It's not supposed to be impossible, but low probability since the union did not endure historically. Best case, at Friendly relations and same religion, the AI has 50% chance of accepting.

I would suggest adding a small province between Saxony / Denmark on the map corresponding to the modern-day Schleswig-Holstein. The area could be a settlement / control requirement for Denmark and Germany / Prussia (see below). Technically Lübeck could also be in this province.

I feel like I added a lot of provinces already, but Saxony could use some splitting up now that Denmark is in. I'll try this.

I agree with those who contend that three conquest UHVs are rather unexciting..

I somewhat agree myself. I think they should perhaps have a later UHV so their UB comes into play.

The Prussian UB comes very late, I've never actually seen the Prussian UU (does it exist?)

The UB does come late but you do get some use from it for UHV 2 and 3. The UU does come a bit too late, with Economics which has the "historical" (easier to research) date of 1735, it might be moved to Liberalism which has the historical date at 1700.

Novgorod, Lithuania, Reval, Pskov, Danzig..

There's supposed to be lots of fighting early game for Prussia. In fact I think it is almost too easy considering how easy it is to spam 3-promotion Teutonics. Just spam military and ignore science for the first hundred years.

I did like the previous expansionist third UHV for Prussia..

I didn't, it was way too easy.

..Großdeutsche Lösung..

That is actually an interesting idea. I'll think about it.

But remember that Prussia actually didn't expand much until the very last few turns of this mod's timeline, most of the time it was a relatively small country with an enormous army, which was what I tried to get across with the Seven Years' War UHV.

I haven't played with the Dutch as they just come around way too late (which is why I haven't played with Sweden prior to RFCE++ Alpha 4 either). Could their spawn date not be moved to the 1482 Habsburg Netherlands as Austrian vassal until they / you convert to Protestantism? Just a thought.

I disagree, I think the Netherlands work fine as it is. There were of course Dutch states before 1580 and sometimes quite powerful ones, but I want civs to represent centralized sovereign states as far as possible.

Also I think 1000-1500AD has enough stuff going on. There also needs to be some early and some late civs to keep things interesting.

About the Dutch UHV, there is a bit of a discussion going on in the main UHV thread. You should post any suggestions there.

I was a bit irked at the fact that Burgundy, as my vassal at the time, was inherited by France.

This was a bug in Alpha 3, did it also happen in Alpha 4?

Religion stuff

Right now religion is mostly controlled by a series of modifiers regulating the probability of a particular religion spreading to each player's cities. The unpredictability of some civs is partly intentional, as a way to avoid too much determinism. Muslim Denmark and Catholic Cordoba is a bit silly though. Perhaps tweaking the leaderhead values of Cordoba to make him less willing to convert would solve that problem?

There seems to be a missing text for when Novgorod becomes either a vassal to someone or Prussia's vassal, as its dynamic name isn't as much dynamic as non-existent (it reads something like TEXT_NOV21_ or something).

Fixed, thanks.

Thanks again for a great addition to the game, and please let me know if there's anything specific I could do or look into.

This was very helpful, thanks . Just play the game normally and tell me what works/doesn't. Also I really appreciate writeups/AAR's.

 

[Opera]

In a Germany game, I had the Olaf II and IV union happen and immediately broke, during the exact same turn. I'm not sure how this happened. Denmark was at war with Sweden is all I know.

 

[Morholt]

I could add a 15 turn collapse immunity to unions, like new civs and respawns have.