Modscenario: Playable Byzantines, 610AD.

I guess I was not playing that good of a game then, I was playing Monarch.
 
I just downloaded and have been fooling around with a Viceroy game. I didn't get any Python exceptions--a smooth, uneventful load for me--but in 980AD the Arabs did declare war on themselves. Which is, in a weird way, kind of historically accurate, but not something you want. So, I'll report that.

I haven't been trying for the UHVs, so I've no observations there. I've played up to 1000AD, and stability hasn't been an issue for me. Like Zagoroth, I was able to retake Jerusalem without major losses, which I think is good. In my first stab I played conservatively by letting the Arabs take Jerusalem and all the north African cities, and stability rapidly went to hell. Which is historical, but not a lot of fun. :)

Thanks a lot for this game. I love trying to recreate Byzantium in a Greece 3000BC start, and it's great having a 600AD start that lets me step in to an already functioning empire!
 
1st UHV date is moved to 1100AD.

Merci M41d3n.dc.
I added your french translations and my German, Italian and Spanish as well as I could manage.

I just downloaded and have been fooling around with a Viceroy game. I didn't get any Python exceptions--a smooth, uneventful load for me--but in 980AD the Arabs did declare war on themselves. Which is, in a weird way, kind of historically accurate, but not something you want. So, I'll report that.

I haven't been trying for the UHVs, so I've no observations there. I've played up to 1000AD, and stability hasn't been an issue for me. Like Zagoroth, I was able to retake Jerusalem without major losses, which I think is good. In my first stab I played conservatively by letting the Arabs take Jerusalem and all the north African cities, and stability rapidly went to hell. Which is historical, but not a lot of fun. :)

Thanks a lot for this game. I love trying to recreate Byzantium in a Greece 3000BC start, and it's great having a 600AD start that lets me step in to an already functioning empire!
The Python exceptions will only display if you set the game to show them, so they are not really an issue as long as they don't cause problem(they don't so far as I know).
Do you know who the DoW was actually against?

Glad you like it!
 
Ah, I didn't know there was a "Tell me about Python exceptions!" checkbox. I've had loading problems with other mods, and so was pleased to see no apparent problems with yours. :)

On the DoW: It was probably Louis. He was cruising the eastern Mediterranean in a trireme. I've played past that date, and my more recent autosave is 1070, so I'm not absolutely certain. But I loaded that save and checked the WB Diplomacy screen, and Saladin was at war with Justinian I, Isabella, Louis, Independent, Independent, Native, and Justinian I. (Yeah, two Justinians to go with the two Independents. I'd make a joke about him also being at war with spam, bacon, sausage, spam, fried egg, spam, spam, baked beans, and spam, but I don't want to stereotype myself.)

Re play: As I say, this is a Viceroy game, and I'm just having fun instead of going for UHV just yet. Playability outside of UHV (at least on that level) is fun, especially if you like playing around with Constantinople. I retook Jerusalem with only a minimal loss, but played it very conservatively in pushing any further until I'd developed some infrastructure and built a solid little army. Cultural pressure from Alexandria tipped Cairo into majority Byzantine demographics around 1100; the Arabs had also fallen in Unstable and Cairo declared independence. When it did, it went into disorder and I swooped in and took it in 1150. Saladin would not make peace unless I handed over Jerusalem, so I marched down and took Mecca. The Arabs collapsed shortly afterward.

Stability has not been a problem for me. Because I was playing conservatively I started off building courthouses in most of my cities, which might have made a difference. Cairo, Mecca, and Sana'a are the only new cities I've acquired, and my Expansion rating is -22; overall Stability is -11. I'll see what happens with the Turks show up.

EDIT: Well, that was nerve-racking. For some reason I wasn't expecting the Turks to spawn for another 6 turns or so, by which time I'd have my cannons and cataphracts and macemen lined up to simply jump on them. As it was, I was totally ill-prepared for Sogut to appear when it did. I lost one of my three cataphracts to desertion, and another to a botched attack on Sogut. But my cannons were nearby. Some slightly, not absurdly, lucky rolls near the beginning let me wear Sogut's defenses down enough that I could attack with everything I had nearby (on cataphract, some pikemen, a crossbowman, a musketeer, and one maceman) and over the course of about four turns I managed to destroy it. I guess we can see now what a Byzantine, not Ottoman, near east means for history!

EDITX2: Okay, one more edit. When the Turks appeared I was at peace with them, but instantly contacted and declared war. Then I refused the city flips. I took Sogut, and more Turk units appeared on the north shore of the Black Sea, where they wandered around uselessly. After I took Sogut, though, one Turk musketman and one Turk cannon remained on the board (in the Crimea) though there were no Turkish cities. I guess there's nothing wrong with it, but I thought I'd mention it and ask if this is a bug or a feature, of the mod or of RFC? I seem to recall there are options that let civs survive so that you have to kill all their units and not just their cities, but I've not seen it in action before.

Also, on the Silk UHV, how do you envision that condition being met? Are there any sources of Silk outside the Far East? Japan has some, but in this game they don't have any for trade. China will part with one. Unless I'm overlooking a resource--or you're assuming that the player colonizes the Philippines--doesn't that mean you're counting on the Khmer or the Mongols to have picked up a Silk that the Byzantines can trade for?
 
Also, on the Silk UHV, how do you envision that condition being met? Are there any sources of Silk outside the Far East? Japan has some, but in this game they don't have any for trade. China will part with one. Unless I'm overlooking a resource--or you're assuming that the player colonizes the Philippines--doesn't that mean you're counting on the Khmer or the Mongols to have picked up a Silk that the Byzantines can trade for?
I was thinking it would be fun to have the Byzantines go east. They would either have to open up the Silk road or sail through Arab waters to get there and I have no idea how they could do that, because I haven't doen it myself yet!
Maube it's to hard and I could change the condition to 5 Wine instead.
 
I suffered a massive brain failure when I made that edit about Silk, probably because I was already thinking ahead to a solution (which I doubt you'll like). But you can only trade for one Silk, which means you'd have to conquer the other two. That implies an invasion of the Far East. That seems awfully hard to pull off, especially since the time will be spent preparing for the Turks, dealing with the Turks, or recovering from dealing with the Turks. It would practically involve conquering China, and/or setting up colonies far outside your settlement area.

The idea I had would be kind of kludgey, but what about rejiggering one of the Corporations so that it becomes available early and used to secure Silk (and maybe other Far East) resources? It's not hard to do: I know practically nothing about modding, but I played around with the files and managed to recast Jewel Co. (renamed "Cathay Co.") so that it trades for Silk and Sugar and Spices, is founded by a Great Merchant, and becomes available with Guilds. I didn't go so far as to try changing its other properties (generating money and culture), but it might be weakened by stripping it of those properties. In that way, the Byzantines, by founding that company and getting in contact with the Far East civs, could act as a conduit, getting control of those extra resources and then trading them to the European civilizations.

NEXT DAY EDIT, TO AVOID DOUBLE POSTING:

I've played a couple of Monarch-level games up to 1400. My observations, fwtw:

1. There is some diplomacy bugginess, but nothing crippling to game play. I got TONS of "X has [done thing] to X" announcements. Countries declaring war on themselves; countries making peace with themselves; countries vassalizing to themselves. The Arabs do it, the Vikings do it, the Spanish and the French and the Portuguese do it. "Let's do it, let's go screw with ourselves." [/FakeColePorter]

2. The Arabs are easy to deal with. Hierousalem can be retaken and held with minimal fuss, and Cataphracts and Pikemen are sufficient for that job and for seeing off the initial Arab armies. After you've killed seven Camel Archers, two Swordsmen, and any Longbowmen or Spearmen who are foolish enough to wander nearby, the Arabs won't give you any problems, even if you remain technically at war with them.

3. Every time I whip temples/cathedrals, I lose at least one city to secession. But I can get two Cathedrals without much worry by 1100AD without whipping if I crank out missionaries and switch to Organized Religion (for production boost) and Serfdom (so your two Workers can rapidly bring mines and quarries into action.)

4. The tech race is also doable, if you concentrate on Meditation - Philosophy off the bat and then beeline Astronomy. (Beelining Astronomy is almost the same as beelining Chemistry, too.) Alexandria is a Great Scientist assembly line, and these can either pop useful techs or give you specialists and Academies.

5. I mentioned above my concern about the Silk condition. I myself love the idea, which is why I'm drawn to the idea of a modified corporation to handle it. Otherwise ... Um ... Change it to "Secure 1 Silk, 1 Sugar, and 1 Spice resource"? I don't know how the game could do a check, but "Open the Silk Road" by building a road between Constantinopolis and Beijing? Maybe have a treasury of a certain size by a certain date, so that the player would have to balance research with treasury growth, and make Great Merchant trade missions to the Far East?

6. Turk vs. Byzantine Spawn Action is hellacious, which is no surprise. Probably only the Babylonians get screwed harder by a spawn. You MUST kill them ASAP. Even then ... Well, I assume this is a feature of RFC, and maybe it's a new one, but even after I killed Sogut, the next turn I got a "flip" announcement, and for ten turns my units would bleed away to the north shore of the Black Sea, even though the Turks had no city. In one game they got Rasht in a flip from the Arabs; in another they had no cities, but weren't destroyed until I sent units up to crush their little band of defectors in the Crimea.

7. Oh, and because it must be said: "This mod is a lot of fun." I really like it. :D

8. Oops, one more observation: Maybe other people will be able to find a use for it, but I don't find the UP useful in the least. During the Middle Ages you're likely only at war with the Arabs, and if you deny them Hierousalem and the north African cities (which most players, they will not be a Mediterranean sea power. During all my games, I only built one galley in each game before exiting the Middle Ages, and that was to ferry missionaries/GPs from Athens to Alexandria.

A MUCH LATER EDIT: Just an update on the most recent game. As I anticipated, I got the Tech UHV without much problem. The Arabs finally pissed me off, and shortly after I smashed the Turks I used the army I'd created to dispatch Saladin. I took Cairo and Mecca, then made peace. Saladin lingered for a bit, and then collapsed. That was around 1400, I think. I didn't expand anymore, just played around. My stability gradually got worse and worse. I used the Taj Mahal Golden Age to make a change in civics that I hoped would shore up my empire, and started putting jails everywhere. But I lapsed back into Unstable.

And then in 1745, with no secessions to warn me, the Byzantine Empire collapsed in civil war. I kept Constantinopolis and Iconium, and that was all. The Turks got Trebizon and Alexandretta. The French (who had settled Tunis) got Tripoli. All the other cities (my originals plus Cairo and Mecca) went Independent. I guess I wasn't really surprised, except maybe that with the Greek stability map the empire managed to hang on as long as it did.
 
Has anyone else playing the mod (the one with the 1000AD first UHV condition) gotten a weird stability hit on turn 34? I've noticed that it regularly happens, and seems unconnected to anything that I've been doing in game. No lost cities; no lost battles; no techs discovered. The categories (Civics, Cities, Expansion, etc.) show no change or only a one or two point drift up or down. But my stability will suddenly plunge by 25 points, which is usually sufficient to make me Unstable, which in turn is almost enough to cause a secession.
 
Sounds like a permanent stability hit (albeit a big one) due to a nearby civ spawning at this time. Could this be what has happened?
 
1. There is some diplomacy bugginess, but nothing crippling to game play. I got TONS of "X has [done thing] to X" announcements. Countries declaring war on themselves; countries making peace with themselves; countries vassalizing to themselves. The Arabs do it, the Vikings do it, the Spanish and the French and the Portuguese do it. "Let's do it, let's go screw with ourselves."
:lol: Yeah, I simply have no idea why that happens and I doubt I can solve it myself. Fierabras promised to attempt to look into it but he seems to have disappeared.

Okay, so I will have to look at the Silk UHV condition. Wouldn't one Spice, Silk and Sugar be to easy? What about conduct 2 trade missions to China? And the corporation idea sounds good, but I just don't like to change the basics of the game to much.
And then in 1745, with no secessions to warn me, the Byzantine Empire collapsed in civil war. I kept Constantinopolis and Iconium, and that was all. The Turks got Trebizon and Alexandretta. The French (who had settled Tunis) got Tripoli. All the other cities (my originals plus Cairo and Mecca) went Independent. I guess I wasn't really surprised, except maybe that with the Greek stability map the empire managed to hang on as long as it did.
That sounds like a good collapse and I'm glad you did. Could you recover the core of your empire after that?
 
Sounds like a permanent stability hit (albeit a big one) due to a nearby civ spawning at this time. Could this be what has happened?

I wondered if that might be it, but I'm not sure how the game is set up to check for those things, so I didn't want to make any accusations. There is an announcement at the start of turn 32 (two turns before the hit) that the Dutch have spawned. Could that be it?

I'll have to play a couple of games to see if the number of points varies. There was one game where I'm pretty sure it was a 25-point hit; and one where I think it was 18. I just launched a new game and took careful note of what was going on around that turn, and in that game it seems to have been a 23-point hit. My overall stability went from +7 to -13, even though my Economy rating went from +15 to +18. (The other indices were unchanged.)

[EDIT: Okay, I started yet another new game, the old one having gone to hell just as a plague started killing my cataphracts at the same time as new Camel Archers started swarming up from the peninsula. In this one I suffered a 15-point hit, which wasn't quite crippling. I'm not sure that shows that the hit varies in strength from game to game, though; I'd built the Wat Priwhatsisname about two turns before, and I think I remember reading that Wonders do give you a boost.]


:lol: Yeah, I simply have no idea why that happens and I doubt I can solve it myself. Fierabras promised to attempt to look into it but he seems to have disappeared.

I forgot to mention that every diplomatic announcement was of that form. There was never a "Spain has made peace with France" announcement, always a "Spain has made peace with Spain" announcement.

Okay, so I will have to look at the Silk UHV condition. Wouldn't one Spice, Silk and Sugar be to easy? What about conduct 2 trade missions to China? And the corporation idea sounds good, but I just don't like to change the basics of the game to much.

I understand your reluctance to change basics. I mentioned the UP being useless if you play a good military/diplomatic game at the start; maybe you could kill two birds by replacing "Greek fire" with the ability to secure multiple luxury resources? Basically, the Byzantines might be born with a "corporation" like ability to trade for multiple resources of a particular type: say, the aforementioned Silk, Spice, and Sugar?

Right now I'm running a game where I'm going to see how soon I can get a Settler out to the East Indies. If it seems doable (though challenging), maybe make the condition to secure two Silk, two Spice, and two Sugar?

That sounds like a good collapse and I'm glad you did. Could you recover the core of your empire after that?

I recovered most of it, though I don't remember offhand which cities I got back. (I've played about four games up to turn 40 since then, to study the stability issue.) I know I got back Athens and the cities the Turks took; I went on to capture Rasht (the Turk capital), which led them to collapse shortly afterward. The Arabs respawned and took the still-Independent Cairo, Hierousalem, and Mecca as well as their other old cities. I DoWed on them and took Cairo and Hierousalem; I don't remember if I took Mecca too. Coincidentally there was a Congress at the time I was retaking my empire, and the Congress gave me Alexandria.

I was so successful only because I'd accumulated a huge stack of units, because my Anatolian cities hadn't anything else to produce.
 
Thank you for all this info, keep it coming. I will also start a game as soon as I get the time(maybe tonight).

If an experienced modder could look into the viking on viking issue I would be grateful.

I imagined the UP could be quite good if one is going to sail through the Suez(fortress) and into arabian waters with settlers for the east, and then defend the trade against agressive Japan and Khmer. Hmm...
 
Another test game, another stability hit result. On turn 34, my Economic stability rose from +15 to +18. At the same time, my overall stability fell from +8 to -20. That's a 31-point hit, if I interpret the numbers correctly. I danced with Unstable for two nonconsecutive turns, but didn't lose any cities to secession, and my economy started picking up at that point. But it was scary.

EDIT: Meanwhile (and here I'm betraying my ignorance) is it one of the game features that the Turks, at least, are able to generate new and undamaged units when I kill a unit in their initial stack? So, if I kill a Crossbowman, and new and fresh Crossbowman appears in their stack. If I kill that one, and new and fresh Crossbowman appears in their stack. And so on, until the game eventually gets tired of the joke and then starts replacing dead Horse Archers with new ones, and dead Cannons and dead Longbowmen with new ones? I assume this is a game-balancing measure, to prevent you from doing what I've done, which is to try to kill the initial stack before they settle. But I'd like confirmation that this is an RFC feature not a bug in the Byzantine modmod.

Also, I'd appreciate confirmation that after you've killed their first city, you should still get a "Flip" warning, and that if if you refuse, most of your army will defect to the Turks, even though they've been destroyed.
 
EDIT: Meanwhile (and here I'm betraying my ignorance) is it one of the game features that the Turks, at least, are able to generate new and undamaged units when I kill a unit in their initial stack? So, if I kill a Crossbowman, and new and fresh Crossbowman appears in their stack. If I kill that one, and new and fresh Crossbowman appears in their stack. And so on, until the game eventually gets tired of the joke and then starts replacing dead Horse Archers with new ones, and dead Cannons and dead Longbowmen with new ones? I assume this is a game-balancing measure, to prevent you from doing what I've done, which is to try to kill the initial stack before they settle. But I'd like confirmation that this is an RFC feature not a bug in the Byzantine modmod.

Also, I'd appreciate confirmation that after you've killed their first city, you should still get a "Flip" warning, and that if if you refuse, most of your army will defect to the Turks, even though they've been destroyed.
I don't have a lot of experience with this "spawn kill" tactics, but someone like AP could probably answer that. As far as I know it's normal that units flip if you refuse to hand over cities(as it says in the text box), even if you have temporarily killed them.
 
EDIT: Meanwhile (and here I'm betraying my ignorance) is it one of the game features that the Turks, at least, are able to generate new and undamaged units when I kill a unit in their initial stack? So, if I kill a Crossbowman, and new and fresh Crossbowman appears in their stack. If I kill that one, and new and fresh Crossbowman appears in their stack. And so on, until the game eventually gets tired of the joke and then starts replacing dead Horse Archers with new ones, and dead Cannons and dead Longbowmen with new ones? I assume this is a game-balancing measure, to prevent you from doing what I've done, which is to try to kill the initial stack before they settle. But I'd like confirmation that this is an RFC feature not a bug in the Byzantine modmod.

Here is your explanation from the changelog, you might want to check it out in full for yourself as there might be other surprises in store too:

v1.984/1.484/1.184
CHANGES
Considerably less units flip during a war with a civ just spawned, but to counterbalance this, new civs’ units are “semi-immune” (that means, there’s 50% chance that a new unit is added every time one is killed) the first 2 turns while they are in the capital plot (prevents the exploit of the early attack, that didn’t trigger the unit flips)°°
 
Thank you for all this info, keep it coming. I will also start a game as soon as I get the time(maybe tonight).

Okay, just remember that you asked for it. ;)

Another day, another game report. This time I attempted a full-out Historical Victory. I used Slavery-Organized Religion to get the Cathedral UHV, and didn't break much of a sweat getting everything built by 1100. Temples were finished in sufficient time that I only had to whip one Cathedral, and it was my goal to use the whip as lightly as possible, considering the fragile state of my stability. I would have been able to get it without using whip at all except that I delayed switching to Organized Religion for half a dozen turns, until I had accumulated enough cash that I could upgrade all my Spearmen to Pikemen and also upgrade a few Archers to Longbows.

After I got the Cathedrals I turned most of my cities to preparing military units to meet the Turks as well as preparing a naval task force to reach the Far East. Because of the former I chased Gunpowder before turning my attention to Astronomy, and so had to make due with Caravels and Galleys to transport a Settler, a Pikeman, and two Workers to the Philippines. I initially sent out only one Trireme to accompany my Galleys, but discovered Saladin was patrolling the Red Sea with two Triremes of his own, each with Combat I/II promotions, and I lost my small fleet to them. Even two Triremes were no match, and I wound up reloading an earlier save and turning two Triremes into Caravels. That let me get to the Philippines by 1400.

Once I was there, I decided I would make contact with the Chinese before I set up a plantation in the Philippines, figuring that I might be able to score one Silk from Ming before I got my own second Silk. I hadn't the forces in the area to conquer a third, but it appears to me that that is only way to meet the Silk condition as it is set up: to trade for one, then conquer a second, and finally colonize a third. It might be doable, and I'm going to make it a project in the next game to see if I can get a large enough task force together to stage some kind of conquest somewhere. Anyway, I found that Ming nad NO Silk to trade. All his Silk was either already being traded, or was lost to the Mongols. I might have tried conquering Guangzhou, which was Independent, but its Silk would have disappeared behind Khmer cultural boundaries.

I also need to figure out some other way of dealing with the Turks. I wasn't aware of the change blizzrd points out above; I checked out the changes/tunes to 1.186, but that was a feature of a version of RFC that I had skipped. Thanks for pointing that out! At the very least, I guess it would probably be a good idea for the player to find a way of killing the Turks that doesn't involve suiciding massive numbers of troops against a regenerating supply of fresh defensive units. At least, I assume that the Stability hit associated with that was why I collapsed in 1675, after a long period of instability during which I had to crush four secession attempts. Fortunately, I had a huge supply of troops I could use to reconquer most of the empire. I was close enough to discovering Chemistry by that point that it probably wouldn't have made a difference to the end of the game if I had just rested with Constantinopolis, which had long since hit size 20 and was generating buckets of lightbulbs and cash.

The tech race, btw, was also not much of a challenge, thanks mostly (it must be said) to the fact that none of the Europeans went for Chemistry before I could snag it. They certainly could have had it: Scientific Method, Education, Liberalism, Communism, Replaceable Parts, and Constitution were some of the techs floating around by the time I got Chemistry. But Philosophy can be got with no problem, since a Great Scientist will pop it, and at least one of your first two Great People will almost certainly be a GS. Astronomy also doesn't seem hard to get first, even if you research Gunpowder before turning your attention to it.

The choice of Gunpowder vs. Astronomy, meanwhile, looks like one of the pivot points in a game. Gunpowder will certainly help you deal with the Turks, but Astronomy will probably be key to the Silk UHV, if that remains unchanged.
 
Okay, I've tried two more games to try to get the Silk UHV, and I came real close on the second attempt. I'm ready to say that the "three Silks" condition is doable. It's just very hard, and you have to have a little luck and a lot of careful prep work. But that's RFC, ain't it?

To get three Silks, your best strategy is to trade for one, conquer a second, and colonize a third. To get each of these requires forethought, though.

1. Trade: You have to make contact with Far Eastern civilizations, and depending upon the geopolitical situation you will trade with China, Japan, Mongolia, or Khmer for your first Silk. China is the most likely prospect, but depending on the state of the ground you might have to deal with one of the others, possibly by DoWing on China. But that is just the last link in the chain.

To trade for Silk, your partner has to be linked up to your trade network. Overland routes are unreliable because they can be disrupted by war, and we know how much the Mongols like a good war. A trade link through the Red Sea is unreliable for the same reason, because of the Arabs. I guess you could send an early galley the long way around Africa, or an early caravel to circumnavigate the globe, but the most direct way to secure a trade link to the Far East is by dispatching Saladin. You have to clear out Mecca and Sana'a, either by razing them or occupying them. You can't just let them go Independent, either; you will have to send a convoy past Sana'a when it is time to colonize, and if you force a passage you will snap the trade link. So, despite the Stability hit, you will have to extend your control down the west coast of the Arabian peninsula.

Once you've secured free passage of the Red Sea, Astronomy will open the Indian Ocean to you, and then it will be hard to lose your trade link with the East.

2. Colonization: Japan likes to settle the Philippines, but they settle in the north, leaving the Silk resource free for you. But the Silk sits in a Jungle, so you can't just squat on it. Thus, you will also have to take at least one Worker with you. Because you are under a deadline, it's a good idea to take a lot of them so you can rush the plantation. Fortunately, you should have a large clutch of them after capturing Sogut from the Turks.

3. Conquest: This is the trickiest one to get, the one where the stars have to align. Far and away the best candidate for conquest is Hanseong (Seoul), which is right next to a Silk resource that will probably have been improved. This means it will fall under your control as soon as the city comes out of post-conquest disorder. You might have to fight China or Japan for it, which is why the trade situation described above might be complicated. It might also be that Hanseong has been destroyed; possibly a new city has been built nearby. It might be a good idea, then, to take a second Settler with you. But you will have to take a substantial army with you in any event, just in case the Korean peninsula is under occupation by one of the major powers.

If Hanseong is not available, Guangzhou is a possibility, though its Silk is likely to fall under Khmer control if you conquer it. Failing those two, you might actually have to take on one of the major powers in its core area, in which case you will want to have a large army with you.

A strategy I haven't tried but which opened up as a possibility in one of my test games: if you don't have a large force at home that you can send to the Far East, you might send your Galleons across the Pacific and try to force the Conqueror events in America. That could then be your invasion force. On the downside, a homegrown force will have substantial promotions that the Conquerors will lack.

As I say, in my second game I came close to getting this UHV. I lost it because Hanseong had been destroyed and a new Japanese city erected one tile to the northeast. That city didn't come out of disorder until 1460 (two turns past the deadline), and it wasn't generating culture to encompass the Silk square anyway. I would have needed a missionary with me for Religion culture, or Caste System in place so I could have hired artists. But even then it would have been 1500 at least before I'd have gotten the third Silk.
 
Isn't there a silk in Australia?
 
Gah! Third try, still "close but not quite" at the Silk condition. Everything came in just five to seven turns too late.

Trade relations with Ming were touch and go, since my religion made me his "worst enemy." Eventually he thawed enough to trade Silk, but then Mecca seceded and I had to DoW on an Independent in order to take it back and reopen my trade line. Then an Independent trireme sailed in and blockaded the Red Sea while all my naval forces were in the Far East. By the time I got ships back and trade routes reopened it was too late to get even one Silk by 1450.

Meanwhile, I messed up my Settler build, and so I was four turns too late getting to the Philippines, but I founded the city anyway. I got a plantation built and roaded in two turns; too bad I didn't arrive in 1430 instead of 1460.

An early scouting trip to the East had shown that Hanseong was still up and still Independent, but my expeditionary force got there just a turn or two before 1450. I had to DoW on Japan to get to Hanseong, since neither Tokugawa nor Ming would give me Open Borders to reach it. I conquered it with little difficulty, but it settled into seven turns of disorder. It would have come out of disorder in 1490, which would have given me the three Silk on that turn.

But two turns before I could do that, my empire collapsed in civil war, taking Hanseong and the Philippines with it.

...

Timing is incredibly tight. I've been using Great People to pop Optics and Gunpowder ASAP, but even then it's very hard to get Gunpowder and Astronomy both in time to be useful against the Turks and in a race to the Far East. There are a few corners I might still shave. I figured out that if you take Cairo early enough, the Stone can let you finish both Cathedrals without once picking up a whip. (I'd prefer not to whip at all, since Stability is such an issue in the early game.) Anyway, my point is that it might be possible to switch to Caste System early on, which might help the research race. That's one place to explore ...

Isn't there a silk in Australia?

There's a Sugar in the northeast, but I don't see a Silk on the map TDK provided. But then, I may be blind ...
 
Sounds like some interesting games! I am going to try to play tonight. I'm wondering if an artist could be helpful in the East?

There's a Sugar in the northeast, but I don't see a Silk on the map TDK provided. But then, I may be blind ...
The only thing I've edited on the map is Cyprus which I reverted back to a hill.
 
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