Monarch Stalemate

[PsychopathicWarmonger]

Hi all.
I posted a thread on beating Noble, and have sinced brushed through Prince with relative ease, but after over a dozen attempts at Monarch I can't seem to beat the AI.

I usually thrive Early-Game, achieving all of the goals that I wish to achieve by the time I wish to achieve them, up until about Code of Laws into Civil Service.
I find myself deprived of finances in the early part of Mid-Game (0-1000AD) and slip behind the AI in terms of techs and power.
In one game in particular I found myself low on finances despite having over half a dozen cities devoted to Commerce. (?)

So I've decided to ask for help once again.
I'm intending on a Domination victory (of course) with the hope of having my rivals subdued before I have Assembly Line researched, with the hope of conquering a couple before Gunpowder.
I'd like to prioritise commerce and resourcefulness with city locations (I've previously had whole swathes of land in my empire empty due to lack of food or unfavourable biomes), as these seem to be the areas which I've been falling down on consistently.

So here we go;

Spoiler :

Peter. Nice guy, good fun at a party.
Philosophical means favourable GPs.
Expansive means favourable workers and a higher health cap - useful later in the game, before acueducts.
Mining allows us to immediately take advantage of clear hills, and puts us one step closer to Bronze Working.
Hunting makes Archery one less step away already, and more importantly it makes Fur, Ivory, and Deer accessible immediately.

Which is all too good, as we have Fur and empty hills in our BFC with our start.
Although unfortunately we have a coastal start, and we don't have Fishing yet.

Spoiler :

Due to the cold region of the map we are in, I expected Deer is nearby somewhere. I suppose that I should move my Scout 1NW, to wager if there's anything worthwhile moving inland for, as the Crab only supplies 4F each, and if we're working the Fur, we may be down 2F off-the-bat.
Based on the Ice I seen just south of our vision, a Northward expansion is where we ouhgt to be going, to warmer lands with better foods.

Edit: Apologies, forgot my mods and saves. XD

I'm using BAT 4.1,
and the map is just plain standard Continents, with no events or huts, aswell as spies returning to nearest cities.

 

[elmurcis]

Ocean Fish is lovely here (no dangers from barbarians - ever, they can't pillage that instead of coastal Crab or Clam) so I would move and settle on that grassland forest (screw fresh water - EXP comes very nice here). Since you are EXP (again), working 3H tile (plain hill scout is on) would give little bit faster worker. And since its "all down" start, I would mine that Furs tile (with hope to have some other Furs somewhere else) for city to work at pop2 - reason is that Furs without forest (and without FIN too) is kind of... "meh" tile
After Fishing, BW I guess (seems logical - 1 of 2 empty grass-hills might have a Copper)

 

[elitetroops]

I wouldn't try to grab the fish with capital here. It would require at least 2 turns of movement and leads to a much worse capital. SIP seems to have a decent amount of forest, and those crabs should be 5 food soon enough as lighthouse would be a pretty high priority. A later city can settle 3S for fish and shared crab.

 

[lymond]

post saves and identify your settings

no time at the moment, but will post more later. But will say that I thought I saw some progress in your previous tutorials, but would like to note that "reading between the lines" of what you write I see a lot of problems in your thought process...i'll expand on that later.

oh..and this could be a painful start unless some good resources in the food.

 

[Pangaea]

Wouldn't move either. It wastes 2-3 turns, and you get a worse city with ice and/or ocean in the BFC. Better to settle in place, have plenty of food (albeit not the best source in the game, nor quickest), and then place a backfill city 3S later down the line to grab fish.

Hopefully some other food is revealed upon settling.

The key to mastering the somewhat higher levels (like Monarch) is the basic gameplay, perhaps with a touch of micromanagement, particularly worker priorities. Expand wisely and settle cities correctly, don't build useless stuff, and you're at least halfway there.

 

[elmurcis]

My mistake - forgot that on Normal speed 2 moving turns costs 3x more than Mara-speed.. crap

 

[lymond]

ugh...settling on furs woulda been so nice if not for killing the fish. Looks like a lake in the fog, and I believe both tiles are forest to the N of it. If you do have deer on either tile, then definitely go worker first and straight to BW, since you start with Mining/BW, then you can chop out a wb or two at first. Pray for deer.

okay, now to expand on my comment above in the previous post with some thoughts:

.... brushed through Prince with relative ease, but after over a dozen attempts at Monarch I can't seem to beat the AI.

Monarch is probably your first big step up. Prince is really not much harder than Noble. Monarch you will see AI start with Archers and more units in general, as well as more bonuses. The key now is to really step up your game and focus on the details. Really iron out your basic game mechanics. That even means likely re-learning some things and breaking some bad habits.

In one game in particular I found myself low on finances despite having over half a dozen cities devoted to Commerce. (?)

Your thoughts here are kinda of in a vacuum, and hard to tell the issue without seeing your game. However, I find that a lot of newer players misjudge what they think is "bad finances". I would not be surprised if you were far better off than you think your are, but rather not equipped yet with the tools to not only judge this particular state of affairs but how to handle your gold in the game. Half a dozen cities is not a lot of cities..at all..and easily manageable at any level, but definitely on Monarch. The period you are talking about is what I would deem a "breakout era" in which I'm looking to amass as much land as possible.

Anyway, we can work this all out in the practice game. Just on food for though...one of the most important techs in the game (IMO the most important) is Currency...learn why that is...

So I've decided to ask for help once again.
I'm intending on a Domination victory (of course) with the hope of having my rivals subdued before I have Assembly Line researched, with the hope of conquering a couple before Gunpowder.
I'd like to prioritise commerce and resourcefulness with city locations (I've previously had whole swathes of land in my empire empty due to lack of food or unfavourable biomes), as these seem to be the areas which I've been falling down on consistently.

I guess it's fine to have a goal like Domination, but honestly I still would not be too concerned with victory type..at least initially. The key for you right now is the first 50 to 100 turns..it is simply so important to get them right and make the right decisions. I'm also very concerned by the thought process of "before Assembly Line researched". To put it into perspective, unless I was going space on Monarch, I would not even smell Assembly line in Monarch game. With the right play, you should be able to destroy a map on Monarch looooong before Assembly Line.

I like a better understanding of what you mean by "prioritize commerce". My concern is that you mean cottaging every tile possible, which I thought I cured you of last time. IMO a better goal is to prioritize city specialization. Not sure what maps you are playing, but sometimes certain maps or just bad starts can give you some not so good land in places. Still you should be able to carve out enough to work with and then go capture better land. You don't need to just settle land if it is crap.

Not sure what map you are playing here yet either..unless I missed it somewhere. Map choice while learning is important, as some maps can just be much harder until you master certain things.

S
Expansive means favourable workers and a higher health cap - useful later in the game, before acueducts.
Mining allows us to immediately take advantage of clear hills, and puts us one step closer to Bronze Working.
Hunting makes Archery one less step away already, and more importantly it makes Fur, Ivory, and Deer accessible immediately.

Two thoughts concern me here, but I may be reading more into things than necessary. "Before Aqueducts" - not saying that you would never build an aqueduct, but you make it sound like a foregone conclusion. The point is overbuilding. Aqueducts are far from a critical building.

Archery - I never tech Archery or trade for it, except if going for Horse Archers. It's a dead end tech that is only for dire emergencies. And trade for it hurts your trade cap with the AIs. Most of my games I never ever have the tech...well, I do love Horse Archers.

Due to the cold region of the map we are in, I expected Deer is nearby somewhere. I suppose that I should move my Scout 1NW, to wager if there's anything worthwhile moving inland for, as the Crab only supplies 4F each, and if we're working the Fur, we may be down 2F off-the-bat.
Based on the Ice I seen just south of our vision, a Northward expansion is where we ouhgt to be going, to warmer lands with better foods.

1NW with Scout is the best move ...really..only move here..too bad it won't reveal both tiles, but but moving any is probably not good here. Plains fur is food deficit, so not ideal to work for some time, but it will provide some decent early commerce, so once you get some growth you might work it at times. Ofc, the happiness is nice too, and I believe it connects automatically. (edit: yes it will..no road needed)

So the major question here is how to open, assuming SIP. I think there is a few ways to play this. You do have a forest PH, so once border pops you can speed up WB. However, that will also speed up worker. Although not a food tile, you do have a workable tile in furs, so worker first is a possible option, going BW>Fishing. I tend to always go worker first on coastal starts if it is more feasible. With this approach, you can then chop out the WBs fast.

Another options, is Fish>BW, start worker until Fishing, and then start WB using forest PH, then finish worker with a crab.

Lastly, but probably only if I had a 3F tile somewhere, which I doubt you will have, is to grow your city on say a Warrior to size 2, start WB though when fishing is in, then whip worker after BW.

 

[PsychopathicWarmonger]

I settled in place, and had my Scout explore around a bit. This map is not looking good.

Spoiler :

Virtually all of the good land is concentrated around the Capital, aswell as most of the food. It appears to be Ice and Tundra west of me, meaning that the only way forward is North, snaking along the Coast.

Spoiler :

I researched Bronze-Working, and revealed Copper within two tiles of my Capital. My Worker was completed the same turn. I was going to chop a forest for the Warrior I had in the queue, but then I figured that I didn't really need the Warrior yet so I moved the Worker into the Fur, with the intent of making a Camp. (Will need that happiness, and there's no more Fur nearby)
The first site looks to be the Sheep, and although it will not grow a large city, it looks to be my only choice on making a move further North. I'm thinking of settling the Tundra inbetween the Sheep and Silver, unless there is any seafood worth settling on the coast for.

 

[lymond]

pics in spoiler tags, please

ugh, that is uuuuuglay land

aswell as spies returning to nearest cities

???

ugh...now that i think of it, I really did not pay close attention to your start. considering that moving the settler inland was already very much in doubt, I probably would have moved the scout to reveal the coast. Really a shame to orphan that fish

well, too look on the bright side, this does present a situation where you learn to deal with minimalist start, probably just 3 or 4 cities at most for some time. Honestly, though I'd probably not recommend this start for learning to move up levels, but it could be interesting.

I would definitely be thinking GLH here.

Sheep might be first city, but doesn't necessarily mean you'd be teching AH early. The silver tile itself will be a nice boost. I'm thinking though that fish city might be better next city simply as a) auto-connected trade route b) it can be productive very quickly). Then sheep, and probably city near copper. With GLH all these cities fine no matter if copper like food.
(copper city will need a road as coastal trade route block by ice down south)

However, it is really important that you make sure to unfog all that coast to the south, especially around copper. You'd hate to miss a seafood there and settling on ice copper is fine.

sorry, for the bad advice on the scout move.

DO NOT CHOP warriors...doing so is a loss of hammers as OF from warriors is capped, but do finish a warrior...a lot of land that needs spawnbusting here... You should be preparing chops right now for the wbs. happiness if far from a priority right now

And yeah, I could see you eventually migrating in a NW direction - hugging the coast, as certainly there got t be something up there. In fact, you really need to get your scouting heading up that way. Not too far though, as you want to bring him back to spawnbust. This land has barbs problems written all over it.

But again, lastly, keep in mind that despite the absolute horrid land out yonder, you can do quite well with 4 cites for a while. there is enough here to work with. silver/furs for happy commerce, copper for strat resource, and enough food.

no reason not to settle sheep/silver on the coast, especially for GLH, which is a must here. but again, you should have revealed that coast there already.

early appropriate scouting is an important part of the game

 

[PsychopathicWarmonger]

So I swung my Scout back around to see what's available as regards food by the coasts. There's nothing more by the Copper or the Sheep.
I kept pushing North, and then came across my first rival...

Spoiler :

This can't end well...

All of the good land and food is in Shaka's territory and immediate area. I also have a hunch that I may be in semi-isolation with him. :|
I chopped 2 forests down to 1 turn to prepare for some Workboats. After I researched Fishing I chopped both of those and a couple of others to give hammers to a Settler and another 3rd Workboat.
I waited a few turns for a couple of Warriors, one of which is heading to my Sheep site now, with a Settler that will arrive a turn beforehand.
I'm making another couple of Workboats to scout the coasts, and see if there's anything beyond the Ice east of that 2nd Fish.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

feel free to give feedback and have discussion. You don't just have to go through the motions. It feels like you are ignoring the advice.

Again, really a shame about that fish. It should not have happened. Your second city should be where you worker is,and that city should be settled now.

Not much you can do about Shaka...you may get lucky. Don't worry about the land to the West. You can do more than fine with the cities you have (especially double fish if that had happened)

you can't scout east with a wb

AH is a waste right now. You should not be teching it. Myst>Sailing>Masonry. Myst first for the fish and you can chop a Monument fast and share a crab (whether you settle 3S or start over)

You can't make an assumption at all at semi-iso on standard continents map with 6 AIs.

Your timing seems a little bit off here I think. Only 2 netted clams on one warrior, and probably too many chops, as you want to save some for GLH, although I might have one grow back for me, can't remember...oh wait, you 4>2 whip settler I bet

(note: I settled 6 cities mainly based on resources, only 3 were decent with food, although copper is not bad...just a bit slow at first)

pics in spoiler tags please (edit: u fixed it almost simultaneous to me posting this)

keep working food...not sure if that was city governor doing something stupid, but you should be working both crabs right now

really, i would have gone for 3 quick wbs first. chopping the first wb, put OF into second, start warrior, finish second wb with chop, OF into 3rd, back to warrior, chop 3rd wb, finish warrior, start settler.

 

[Pangaea]

That's a preposterously bad map. I wouldn't even bother trying. When the idea is to learn, an extreme outlier like this is best thrown out. This is the inverse example of triple gold triple wet corn start.

 

[lymond]

That's a preposterously bad map. I wouldn't even bother trying. When the idea is to learn, an extreme outlier like this is best thrown out. This is the inverse example of triple gold triple wet corn start.

Spoiler at Pangaea :

played til about 1AD and not far from Liberalism..not that I'd take it any time soon. It's not that bad really, but granted can be hard if you don't no how to leverage what you have.

@Psycopath - Trade a fish and crab to Shaka as soon as you can..keep checking each turn when you can. He will probably settle the cow city soon, which should open up trading.

Your mainly gonna be stuck with the land you have for some time, but you will be fine and can break out later.

 

[DrCron]

I agree that a map so bad is not good for learning (just like double gold and wet corn wouldn't be either). I would re-roll to find a more average start. Of course on Monarch you could just get a chariot rush (there's bound to be horses somewhere, too few resources otherwise) and roll over Shaka if needed, but if you want to learn some strategy that may work on higher levels you'll struggle here.

On this map I would have totally settled the fur, which would have made me lose that fish SE that wasn't visible initially. Good thing I didn't answer earlier

 

[PsychopathicWarmonger]

aswell as spies returning to nearest cities

???

I like dabbling in espionage. XD
It's fun stealing great techs from other civs.

feel free to give feedback and have discussion. You don't just have to go through the motions. It feels like you are ignoring the advice.

Oh. Sorry I came across like that. XD
I've been playing so many games I was unsatisfied with for a while now that maybe I subconsciously thought I should just be quiet and have the better players put it right.
It's probably far better that I try and explain my faulty logic with you all, so to perhaps get a better grip of what I'm doing wrong or not seeing each game.

I feel inclined to agree with DrCron and Pangaea here though. In my (limited) experience I've never come across such a map as this, and feel like this won't be much use in learning how to play an average game properly.

Rerolling for a new map...

Same settings, same leader, same mod.

Spoiler :

Much better. Good food, good land, useful resource and several directions to spread from.

My thoughts are to SIP. I don't see any particular reason to move inland, apart from perhaps having the Floodplains to Cottage. Based on the little clipit I can see 2N of the Marble there may be some Rice there. There also looks to be jungle further South, so I want to avoid that for the time being. There's several hills surrounding me and lots of food so I would specialize this as a Production city.
-Although, thinking now... if I want a Prod city I could move the Settler 1E onto the Grassland...
I could still keep the Cow, and the Fresh-Water from the Inland-Lake, aswell as the 2 Clams. The Marble will also prove nice for a Prod city. There also looks to be more Hills east of me. That would be my decision here. Should I be doing something else?

 

[elitetroops]

Very nice start, but tough decision! Scout should go W-NW first to find out if there is something insanely awesome over there. Floodplains are tempting, but so is settling on a PH. Not very good alternatives for that here... SIP is by no means a bad choice. I'd like to see what scout reveals before thinking too hard about a decision like this, though.

 

[lymond]

It's probably far better that I try and explain my faulty logic with you all, so to perhaps get a better grip of what I'm doing wrong or not seeing each game.

Exactly. We'd like to ascertain what is going on in your mind as you are processing our feedback, as well as any preconceived notions you have that are good or bad, so we can correct or reinforce. I made that statement not to "imply" anything, but rather just to goad you into discourse.

Ha...I had a lot of fun with that first map and had a very strong position by 1 AD with 6 cities and 2 scientists ready to bulb Edu, and more on the way for Astro bulb..and earlier a GS for academy and GM (from GLH) for trade mission. There are indeed some very very bad starts for anyone, but I disagree myself that the map was unsuitable for you. The wasteland to the West seems offputting, but does not mean you can't get up 4 decent cities, which is really all you need here. What you do learn is how to leverage GLH for these kinda situations, and how to leverage what you are given, which is not all that bad.

Anyway, this start looks like it has potential, although another coastal position. Scout placement is not great, but I absolutely would consider an inland move toward the flood plains, even at the expense of a turn or two. ABsoLuTelY! Just from reading the fog, there appears to be plenty more FPs and with cows you got all you need for a stellar Bureau cap..and maybe there is more. It's worth the risk (and really there is none) to move NW. Start with stepping settler 1NW and then analyze. Right now I could see you settling 2N1W, but I"m inclined to possibly settle 2N or maybe further in. Scout can only do what it can do, but move it 2W this turn and maybe it can move N to help with the view.

Starting position is another city, maybe on the PH later. PH is very likely a resource, but could be like aluminum or coal...who knows.

As for your current thinking of moving 1E for a "production city" well SIP is already a strong production city, so I see no need to waste a turn for that move, unless your scout was over there and spotted something nice that way when he moved.

So anyway, this is a great example of when I like to move inland with a coastal start..as I generally always prefer to move cap inland if feasible.

(as for if I would settle the coast here, settling on the PH is pretty much a no brainer)

 

[Pangaea]

This is a much better map for learning how to step up to the higher difficulties

I'd be quite tempted to move inlands as well. That looks like a very juicy river, with plenty of floodplains. If 2N of your current position happens to be a plains hill... giggety. I'd settle there. But first... move the scout, probably W-NW. If that happens to reveal more food, I'd definitely move the settler (also because I hate to settle on green hills). Wouldn't settle eastwards though. Not much good stuff over there, the river is what you should be aiming for if moving, simply because a strong buro capital will carry your empire for a long time. It's one of the combos you should learn to take advantage of when moving up in difficulty levels. Buro capital + nice river + cottages + academy. Not unusual a city like that can contribute 50-60% of your , even when you have ~10 cities.

If it happens to be feasible to settle 2N, you still get the marble in the capital BFC, the cow, and several floodplains. Depends a bit what your scout reveals upon moving, and alternatively the settler as well. And it opens up for a city on the plains hill, 1S of where your settler currently is located. Could be a resource there, like copper or iron (tiles like that, naked among a crapload of forest, is always suspicious), but if not it would be a natural spot to settle later, and grab the clams. Can even chop out the Great Lighthouse there. Or Oracle, so the genepool in the capital gets a clean Great Scientist.

 

[PsychopathicWarmonger]

Alright. Do Plains-Hills give an extra settled on? From what I've gathered, the tile's food stays at 2, always, and can have extra or added ontop of it depending on the land settled, such a Plains-Hill? Is that why that is one of the most attractive sites to settle?

Spoiler :

I brought my Scout West and then North. I found Banana but I thought there would be no reason to settle there until I get Calender so I ignored it. I guided my Settler North-West into the Floodplains, and spotted more Plains-Hills and a little Ivory. I originally settled on the Plains-Hill 1N of where Moscow is now, but then I figured I could nab the Marble in my BFC if I settled on the Forest-Plains-Hills if I settled 1S. Marble would be a good tile to work rather than a mined Hill, either Plains or Grassland, because of the bonus, even though it's on a Plains tile. If there also happens to be Copper or Iron on my original starting tile or the Hills around it, then my borders will have expanded far enough to mine it by the time I research Bronze/Iron-Working, I expect.
I hoped to find more Floodplains after moving my Settler but was disappointed a little by finding only Grasslands, although riverside.

My plan now is to research Fishing>The Wheel> Pottery.
I plan to Cottage the River-tiles as soon as possible, and in order to do so will need either Fishing or Agriculture before researching The Wheel. I chose Fishing because my next site to settle may well be the Clam site, and considering I haven't found any farmable food yet, was the correct choice to make.
I then intend to research Bronze-Working to chop out some Settlers and Workers.
I suspect however that I should reverse that research order and do Bronze-Working first, as my worker will be left with nothing to do for a number of turns after being trained and camping the Ivory.

 

[Pangaea]

I feel a little bad for suggesting that spot now, although I wrote the qualifier "if it happens to be feasible". Settling on plains hill is great because you get that extra hammer for as long as the game lasts (you can get extra food too btw, if you for instance had settled on banana, though of course that is not a great option here, just pointing out the existence of the option). Since you spotted the banana and lots of rivers, settling on the green forest 1W of cow does perhaps look like the best one - because it grabs all floodplains and many more river tiles. Where you settled is by no means bad, but it has "only" 6 cottageable river tiles. Although 3 FPs help, the food is probably on the low side. By settling between cow and banana, you could have farmed the banana for a 4-food tile. That would also have given you an excuse for teching agri early (you'll probably need it soon-ish anyway). Pointless to go Fishing so early when you don't need it for workboats. You can pick it up later, in time for settling near the clams.

That said, the advantages to settling where you did is early access to ivory and marble. Marble can be a blind alley, as you need Masonry first to improve it, and you will probably have other early concerns (like BW), but having access to Marble in time for building or getting failgold from some of the marble wonders is excellent. Of course, you could just have got it from a later settled city. It's always a little tricky to say too much about settling plans so early, because everything depends on what is revealed about your surroundings through scouting.

I don't have BAT installed so can't open the save, but I'm sure some of the others have it and can give you more active advice