Monarchists' Cookbook I
- Thread starter Diamondeye
- Start date
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I think we should stick with the format of picking the bestball otherwise everyone will play their own save pretty much.
re: Saladin and our crap land. There is no doubt in my mind that we need to attack Saladin. No doubt at all. If we were on a huge landmass and had copper I would've sacked his capital already. The problem is not only do we need a large stack of units, we need a large stack of galleys to get them there. That takes time and costs $$$. The reality is we need to get our economy going or else, even if we succeed in beating down Saladin, our empire is going to be in shambles afterwards.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: We're industrious and expansive. Thus our economy is best emphasized through building wonders and growing large cities. The natural synergy between those two is trade routes. Another benefit to building wonders is gpp. ToA synergizes with all of these giving trade routes and an *excellent* source of gpp. Considering we have no gpfarm I can't emphasize enough how much both the ToA and the GL will benefit us in terms of producing (albeit mixed) gp.
re: Saladin and our crap land. There is no doubt in my mind that we need to attack Saladin. No doubt at all. If we were on a huge landmass and had copper I would've sacked his capital already. The problem is not only do we need a large stack of units, we need a large stack of galleys to get them there. That takes time and costs $$$. The reality is we need to get our economy going or else, even if we succeed in beating down Saladin, our empire is going to be in shambles afterwards.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: We're industrious and expansive. Thus our economy is best emphasized through building wonders and growing large cities. The natural synergy between those two is trade routes. Another benefit to building wonders is gpp. ToA synergizes with all of these giving trade routes and an *excellent* source of gpp. Considering we have no gpfarm I can't emphasize enough how much both the ToA and the GL will benefit us in terms of producing (albeit mixed) gp.
Well then for you guys, I suggest OTAKU's save, though I actually found yours to be very interesting.
My primary concern with yours was whether you could grab the Great Lighthouse while still expanding. Also, the present wonderspam strategy is very much tailored for this difficulty setting, and I don't think will be viable at all on higher difficulties.
Diamondeye had a pretty good round. I don't know about his chances on the Great Lighthouse, however. What really bummed me about it was his placement of Hamburg. Founding his second city on marble island was intriguing. There's a commerce boost from overseas trade that wouldn't be activated by cities on the mainland. However, the distance maintenance cost at that site offsets it entirely.
This break even exchange aside, he's positioned too far from the marble. 13 turns (12 from 2000BC) from a monument, 15 turns from then until border expansion, and a final 10(?) turns for the quarry. At least he can pre-road it.
R_rolo1's save is solid, but again, I wonder if he can grab the Great Lighthouse in time. I hadn't started on it in my own game by this point, but I hadn't cleared any of the forests yet either.
Bley's save is almost identical to r_rolo1's. Some of the same concerns arise regarding completing the Great Lighthouse. Bleys has one less forest, but has all three clams hooked up and has both grassland hills mined.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I'll reply to all these ideas laters, I'm at school 
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I agree that OTAKUs' save is good, especially if we conclude that the GLH is a must... I do, however, think that Rolos' save keeps the option of an early choke of Saladin open. If we choose OTAKUs' save, we will have biased the game alot, having chosen a wonder over settler/rush, where as Rolos' is more open.
Nah, but we're dealing with Monarch here, mkay? I'm not nearly ready for emperor yet
. I see your point and that is partially the reason I am a bit against OTAKUs' (fine, wonderbiased) save.
Infact, I have a worker mining the plains hill, dunno how many turns left, guess is 3. After that, 2 more
, so... 9 turns for monument, then 15 for culture and 8 for quarry, I believe. If we're lucky enough to get Hindu in Hamburg, it will halve the culture time.
I would consider it open for taking still, but I might be wrong
Mhm. Makes sense. I would rather have a mined hill than a forested one, so I would actually place my bets on Bleys (or my own
) save for GLH, but then again, we need to keep some options open...
Nah, but we're dealing with Monarch here, mkay? I'm not nearly ready for emperor yet
. I see your point and that is partially the reason I am a bit against OTAKUs' (fine, wonderbiased) save.Infact, I have a worker mining the plains hill, dunno how many turns left, guess is 3. After that, 2 more
, so... 9 turns for monument, then 15 for culture and 8 for quarry, I believe. If we're lucky enough to get Hindu in Hamburg, it will halve the culture time.I would consider it open for taking still, but I might be wrong
Mhm. Makes sense. I would rather have a mined hill than a forested one, so I would actually place my bets on Bleys (or my own
) save for GLH, but then again, we need to keep some options open...Well the idea is that you should be able to grab one of the early wonders. Stacking the Great Lighthouse, Temple of Artemis and the Oracle won't happen, however. Obsolete uses very specific starts for his wonderspam; this wouldn't qualify.
The only thing is that the Great Lighthouse will fuel your expansion on this map, guaranteed. Nothing can even come close to it.
Unless I was trying to race for a wonder.
While you may not be up to emperor or beyond yet, there's no sense developing habits you cannot carry forward.
Bleys
Deity
Well, I wasnt planning on stacking all 3 in one city. The Marble City builds the Oracle. Berlin gets 2, maybe 3 Wonders, GLH, ToA, Colossus.
My plan was also to make the "Commerce City" on Marble Island my main Science City as well, putting the GLibrary there. Copper City becomes the HE city, unless we have some better land once we move on Sal.
Those are my early thoughts. I rarely try to spam all the wonders in one city, there usually isnt time on "normal" maps, and there certainly wont be on this one.
So from my save, for example, finish teching Pottery, tech through Poly and Priest. Settler gets whiped for 2 with max overflow into the next building, which is the GLH. Whe the pop is back to max and about to go over, stick another Settler or Worker in queue, which build until whip-unhappiness fades, and gets whipped for 1 or 2 itself, again, maximizing overflow into the GLH.
Meanwhile, I move both the new settler and the old worker to Marble Isle, settle ON the Marble, and start the Oracle if possible, a Monument if not, til Priest is done. Worker mines a plains hill, and that city builds the Oracle with IND + Marble + 6H a turn (4 from mine, 2 from city tile), which is about 15 turns. I think its a pretty solid plan. Oracle gives us MC, and forges go up in all cities, even Cap, once GLH is done. Then Berlin starts ToA, with Marble, IND, Forge, and 2 hills. Another Settler for the Copper city gets whip-overflowed into the GLH or ToA or even Forge.
I am VERY confident of this plan at this level, and dont see myself chopping a single forest to pull it off, MAYBE 1 forest into the ToA or Forge, for max doubled hammers. No, it would never fly on Emperor . . . which is a big reason I dont like Emperor, I like shiny stuff instead of concentrated grinding.
My plan was also to make the "Commerce City" on Marble Island my main Science City as well, putting the GLibrary there. Copper City becomes the HE city, unless we have some better land once we move on Sal.
Those are my early thoughts. I rarely try to spam all the wonders in one city, there usually isnt time on "normal" maps, and there certainly wont be on this one.
So from my save, for example, finish teching Pottery, tech through Poly and Priest. Settler gets whiped for 2 with max overflow into the next building, which is the GLH. Whe the pop is back to max and about to go over, stick another Settler or Worker in queue, which build until whip-unhappiness fades, and gets whipped for 1 or 2 itself, again, maximizing overflow into the GLH.
Meanwhile, I move both the new settler and the old worker to Marble Isle, settle ON the Marble, and start the Oracle if possible, a Monument if not, til Priest is done. Worker mines a plains hill, and that city builds the Oracle with IND + Marble + 6H a turn (4 from mine, 2 from city tile), which is about 15 turns. I think its a pretty solid plan. Oracle gives us MC, and forges go up in all cities, even Cap, once GLH is done. Then Berlin starts ToA, with Marble, IND, Forge, and 2 hills. Another Settler for the Copper city gets whip-overflowed into the GLH or ToA or even Forge.
I am VERY confident of this plan at this level, and dont see myself chopping a single forest to pull it off, MAYBE 1 forest into the ToA or Forge, for max doubled hammers. No, it would never fly on Emperor . . . which is a big reason I dont like Emperor, I like shiny stuff instead of concentrated grinding.
Animal Husbandry so we could see if we had any horses.
A barracks so the new Warrior(trained immediately after the barracks) could have experience.
No work boats because Berlin did not need Fish at that time.
The worker was just a slip of mind.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I used my forests on a settler and I believe they were well spent
I am aware the GLH is huge on this kind of maps, and I think OTAKU has a point of playing as he does. Building ones' strategy early on on such a strong wonder is very good, but leave little rush possiblities open... I think saves such as mine, Rolos' or Bleys' is more neutral on that point. It all boils down to whether we find it crucial to get GLH or to leave the save open... Any opinions?
r_rolo1
King of myself
My save has a calculated risk about GLH, I reckon... but everyone is forgetting one thing: we have 3 grassland hills in the BFC and only 2 were forested. So I decided to keep one forest for later uses while mining the other 2 ( the other hill would serve for my planned city #2 as well , as marked in save )... I'm still basculating between chopping it to TGL directly of for a Forge as OTAKU suggested, but I think that I can get TGL, Oracle ,and a decent city #2 in 1000 BC with some ease.
As I said before , I like OTAKU gam(bl)e on Great Lighthouse... it will pay up. But other gambles may arise of some more neutral games and they potentially can pay more ( axe rush Saladin , wonder crazyness marble based ... )
Of course I will not oppose to play my save
, but my vote goes to OTAKU or in mine 
As I said before , I like OTAKU gam(bl)e on Great Lighthouse... it will pay up. But other gambles may arise of some more neutral games and they potentially can pay more ( axe rush Saladin , wonder crazyness marble based ... )
Of course I will not oppose to play my save
, but my vote goes to OTAKU or in mine
Bleys
Deity
I have no strong opinion among OTAK's, rolo's, or even my own or futurehermits, I think Diamonds 2nd city is poorly placed, though, despite it being there in my original dotmap. I see a better option of 3 cities on that island, on Marble, 3W of marble, and 3N+1W of marble.
vale
Mathematician
I agree with on Marble and the plains hill far north on the island.
But I dislike 4W of the marble (I'm assuming you aren't suggesting settling on the peak). I personally prefer 3S of Berlin for the other city on that island. Until we have some happiness issues resolved, Berlin will not be able to work even 2 clams while stagnating, so a city that overlaps there will be able to take advantage of the leftovers when relevant.
I'm sorry that nobody pursued an early granary in Berlin. That would have been the best start for pursuing the wonders while not completely stifling expansion.
Solon70
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2008
- Messages
- 249
Settling on the peak would be great for defense. Also it seems like a really cool place to build The Oracle.
Bleys
Deity
I did mean 4W, and I still prefer that spot. It has 4 hills, 4 grasslands, 2 FPs and is on the river. To be honest, that would likely make a great site for the Capitol in Bur. I do see your point of sharing the clams, I just dont like to crowd my capitol THAT much. The capitol and that "commerce half" of the island are going to be the best growth cities we have, sharing that many tiles is going to be painful later in the game.
I might consider 4S of Berlin, but I still like 4W of the marble.
As far as early granaries, I think they can be avoided while the happy cap is so low. Berlin will re-grow to its cap pretty quickly without a Granary. I want those extra few turns for whip-unhappy faces to go away, to be honest. Once we can pump the happy cap, Granaries become the most important building of every city, but for now, with caps at 4 and 5, we will regrow faster than whip-fade as it is.
I might consider 4S of Berlin, but I still like 4W of the marble.
As far as early granaries, I think they can be avoided while the happy cap is so low. Berlin will re-grow to its cap pretty quickly without a Granary. I want those extra few turns for whip-unhappy faces to go away, to be honest. Once we can pump the happy cap, Granaries become the most important building of every city, but for now, with caps at 4 and 5, we will regrow faster than whip-fade as it is.
vale
Mathematician
While it is true that we will regrow faster than the whip anger will disappear, the granary would have had a huge payoff in terms of the ability to regrow efficiently from whips while continuing to work all the mines. Without it, regrowing from a whip involves extra turns of both clams being worked which costs turns on the mines which are precious in this low hammer output situation.
It isn't very relevant seeing as nobody prioritized a granary in Berlin as an early build but I can definitely demonstrate that that would have been fairly strong for getting out the requisite items for the marble settler out while not sacrificing that much towards the wonder production.
The spot I'm proposing for the other city on the south island does overlap quite a few tiles. The 3 crabs, 2 coastal and a grassland hill in Berlin as well as the floodplains and a grassland in the plains hill city. The thing is though it is going to be a long time before that overlap is going to cause serious conflict between the cities. And short term, making sure that the improved clams are being used as much as possible seems worth the long term potential cost seeing as the short term of guaranteeing the clams are worked at all times seems to be a worthy investment.
That city placement also leaves open the possibility of throwing a late city on that southern plains hill if it becomes relevant.
It isn't very relevant seeing as nobody prioritized a granary in Berlin as an early build but I can definitely demonstrate that that would have been fairly strong for getting out the requisite items for the marble settler out while not sacrificing that much towards the wonder production.
The spot I'm proposing for the other city on the south island does overlap quite a few tiles. The 3 crabs, 2 coastal and a grassland hill in Berlin as well as the floodplains and a grassland in the plains hill city. The thing is though it is going to be a long time before that overlap is going to cause serious conflict between the cities. And short term, making sure that the improved clams are being used as much as possible seems worth the long term potential cost seeing as the short term of guaranteeing the clams are worked at all times seems to be a worthy investment.
That city placement also leaves open the possibility of throwing a late city on that southern plains hill if it becomes relevant.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I disagree with that. I see us getting monarchy sooner than later to grow the capital huge as our main source of economy.
slobberinbear
Ursine Skald
... Or maybe the best land is in Arabia ...
sorry, couldn't resist.
sorry, couldn't resist.
OTAKUjbski
TK421
That's because most of us only just got Pottery. In my case, it came in 5 Turns ago.
It also doesn't help the Granary is a 1pop whip due to Expansive -- which means we either slow build it or whip overflow into it (instead of into a Wonder
).
I'm even thinking in the back of my mind I want to take Monarchy from the Oracle instead of MC.
My current plan for the next round is to get the GLh built and to have a total of five cities up and running. Any extra wonders or cities would be a bonus, but are not essential - I'll see how things are looking after the first few turns.
One of those cities may share the clams (or go further south), another will be on the spot I already settled (3SE of Berlin), another will claim the copper, and then there'll be one to take the fish on South Island. I won't decide on the order of settlement until I see the save.
By the end of the round (10ad), I want to be in a position where my cities are ready to build an army to take on Sal, and are able to grow at a decent rate to take full advantage of Slavery, HR and the GLh.
So, in terms of builds, what I'm looking at is (depending on the save and the order of settlement): the GLh, 3-4 settlers, 1-3 workers, 1-2 workboats, 3-5 lighthouses, 3-5 granaries, 2 barracks, 3-4 garrison units, 1-2 galleys (for exploration and domestic transport). A couple of temples and libraries would be most helpful too.
With the land available, I'd say this plan is ambitious but not wildly unrealistic. Anyone disagree?
Also, I'm interested to know when the rest of you are planning to be ready to start a military buildup, and where you hope/expect to be at the end of the next round.
I'm looking for dates and numbers if at all possible - "when I've got tech X" or "building my economy" won't be all that helpful.
One more thing: while HR can take care of our happiness needs, health looks like being a real problem here. Until we expand to capture more health resources (do we know if Sal has any we don't?), our options are Aqueducts and Habours (the Hanging Gardens is another possibility, of course). We should bear this in mind before we start building forges in every city.
One of those cities may share the clams (or go further south), another will be on the spot I already settled (3SE of Berlin), another will claim the copper, and then there'll be one to take the fish on South Island. I won't decide on the order of settlement until I see the save.
By the end of the round (10ad), I want to be in a position where my cities are ready to build an army to take on Sal, and are able to grow at a decent rate to take full advantage of Slavery, HR and the GLh.
So, in terms of builds, what I'm looking at is (depending on the save and the order of settlement): the GLh, 3-4 settlers, 1-3 workers, 1-2 workboats, 3-5 lighthouses, 3-5 granaries, 2 barracks, 3-4 garrison units, 1-2 galleys (for exploration and domestic transport). A couple of temples and libraries would be most helpful too.
With the land available, I'd say this plan is ambitious but not wildly unrealistic. Anyone disagree?
Also, I'm interested to know when the rest of you are planning to be ready to start a military buildup, and where you hope/expect to be at the end of the next round.
I'm looking for dates and numbers if at all possible - "when I've got tech X" or "building my economy" won't be all that helpful.
One more thing: while HR can take care of our happiness needs, health looks like being a real problem here. Until we expand to capture more health resources (do we know if Sal has any we don't?), our options are Aqueducts and Habours (the Hanging Gardens is another possibility, of course). We should bear this in mind before we start building forges in every city.
Bleys
Deity
Good insight Winston. Health is going to be an issue, thank the stars we are Expansive!
My plan is very similar to yours. I want 5-6 cities up and running with as strong a TRE as I can get. After Granaries, Barracks are of key importance as well. One thing I also plan to focus on is exploration. If we can find some unsettled islands to the east, reachable by Galley, I want to get them. They should be in reasonable shape financially with the GLH, so hammers can go to more Barracks, Cats, etc, while forgoing expensive Courthouses for a bit.
Diamond, I suggest when you pick the save, you re-attach it, and provide a link to that specific post in the opening post, or even just attach it to the OP, so eventually you will have 6 saves attached to that OP, or something, heh.
My plan is very similar to yours. I want 5-6 cities up and running with as strong a TRE as I can get. After Granaries, Barracks are of key importance as well. One thing I also plan to focus on is exploration. If we can find some unsettled islands to the east, reachable by Galley, I want to get them. They should be in reasonable shape financially with the GLH, so hammers can go to more Barracks, Cats, etc, while forgoing expensive Courthouses for a bit.
Diamond, I suggest when you pick the save, you re-attach it, and provide a link to that specific post in the opening post, or even just attach it to the OP, so eventually you will have 6 saves attached to that OP, or something, heh.
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