Monarchy and Democracy

Are monarchies and liberal democracies compatible?

  • Yes

    Votes: 35 46.1%
  • No

    Votes: 23 30.3%
  • Depends on specific details

    Votes: 18 23.7%

  • Total voters
    76
I don't remember where I heard it, but I heard an interesting pro-monarchy argument. The idea was that in countries with monarchies, people direct their awe towards the monarchs rather than the prime ministers and it makes it easier to dispose of governments. The person compared it to the situation in the U.S., where we nearly deify our presidents.

I don't know how much truth there is to it, but it was an interesting argument nonetheless.


The only presidents that have been "deified" in the US in the past century were only done so long after their deaths. And the last one was Reagan, where in order to deify him, they have to lie through their teeth about what he did while alive. So I wouldn't worry about that too much. :p
 
You show far more respect to your president then you should. Doesn't the media have to stand up whenever he walks into a room and a freakin' band starts playing?? :P It's nonsense.
In Britain our PM is treated poorly and all our natural people-worshipping is focused on an apolitical monarch.
 
You show far more respect to your president then you should. Doesn't the media have to stand up whenever he walks into a room and a freakin' band starts playing?? :P It's nonsense.
In Britain our PM is treated poorly and all our natural people-worshipping is focused on an apolitical monarch.


Our presidents aren't that well treated. Just when they appear in public, it's a pretty controlled environment. Do keep in mind how many of them have been shot. When's the last time a Brit PM was assassinated?
 
You show far more respect to your president then you should. Doesn't the media have to stand up whenever he walks into a room and a freakin' band starts playing?? :P It's nonsense.
In Britain our PM is treated poorly and all our natural people-worshipping is focused on an apolitical monarch.
Yeah, Bush was really deified by everybody not a Republican. And Obama's really deified by the birthers et al. Right.
 
Our presidents aren't that well treated. Just when they appear in public, it's a pretty controlled environment. Do keep in mind how many of them have been shot. When's the last time a Brit PM was assassinated?
That's just because of gun control laws :p
 
Just because people dislike the elected God-King doesn't mean they're not a God-King. Even in their blaming EVERYTHING on the president of the day, haters of the president of the day are still deifying in their own way (diabolifiy? vilify?). It's a Manichean system, I guess.
 
Just because people dislike the elected God-King doesn't mean they're not a God-King. Even in their blaming EVERYTHING on the president of the day, haters of the president of the day are still deifying in their own way (diabolifiy? vilify?). It's a Manichean system, I guess.
Possibly, but that gets off track of what ama and Quackers were saying.
 
The only presidents that have been "deified" in the US in the past century were only done so long after their deaths. And the last one was Reagan, where in order to deify him, they have to lie through their teeth about what he did while alive. So I wouldn't worry about that too much. :p
Yeah, Bush was really deified by everybody not a Republican. And Obama's really deified by the birthers et al. Right.
It's really not that you deify any individual president, it's more the Presidency itself. There's a sanctity attached to the office, whether or not any one individual is regarded as partaking in it or defiling it. (Perhaps this is over-simplistic, but it certainly doesn't seem coincidental from the outside that both Bush and Obama have had elaborate conspiracy theories concocted around them which purport to prove that he isn't really the president.)

Also, Arwon makes a good point.
 
I consider the truther movement to be even better evidence for that. Those people seem to be happier to assume that the government is evil but plans and controls everything than with them being powerless to foresee and prevent a terrorist attack.
 
We certainly do give far too much honor to the office of the presidency, but that has not always been the case. Presidents in the 19th century better knew their place. It is true that Washington supported the president taking over much of the pomp and ceremony of the British monarch, but it didn't stick that well with his less respected successors. The president generally continued to been seen as subservient to congress until the time of the great depression, although some individuals like Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson foreshadowed the overarching executive of today.
 
Doesn't seem to be necessary since there are nations with perfectly fine internal cohesion without monarchy. Furthermore, national unity in monarchies is identified with the monarch only because he is present already. No country would say "we need more national unity, let's install a monarchy". So it's only an appeal to tradition again.

You might construe this as an appeal to tradition. But if so, it is not blameworthy one. Appeals to tradition are bad if they take the form 'X is traditional, therefore X is good'. This is because, this proposition is usually false. One cannot re-construct my argument in this form.

One could re-construct my argument as 'That X is traditional means X is uniquely suited for certain valuable uses, because these uses are valuable X is good'. The fact Britain has a traditionally has a monarchy means it can take advantage of monarchy in the ways I have enunciated. You are correct to say that a newly installed monarchy would (probably) not yield the same advantages. That is because the monarchy, through tradition, is perceived as having certain legitimacy in the roles it does perform. This relies on a proposition about tradition, but it is not one we can really deny. It relies on the belief that people do care about tradition; they think about traditional things in a different way to their thoughts on novel things. The tradition of monarchy can leverage this into useful practical application.

On your other point, that monarchy is not necessary for national unity because there are nations with perfectly fine national cohesion without monarchy, fails to touch my argument. I am not claiming that monarchy is necessary for a given level of national cohesion. I am claiming that, in nations were monarchy is publicly acceptable (often due to their historical presence), it is causally efficacious; it increases the probability of national cohesion and perhaps the level of said cohesion. That cohesive countries exist without monarchies does not falsify this claim.

Granted in case of the commonwealth. I don't see how a monarch needs to be necessarily better as a diplomat, though.

In parallel to the previous argument, one reason the monarchy entails special diplomatic advantages is that people care about the monarchy. For instance, tens of millions of people in foreign countries, for whatever reason, watched the royal wedding. This kind of thing gives royal visits a status and prestige unattainable to normal diplomats. This does not mean the royals are any good at the negotiations involved diplomatic work, but they can help build congenial relations with foreign peoples. This, especially in democracies, is not an insignificant benefit.


That depends on the political powers you give your head of state. What would change if his powers are exactly the same as a hereditary head of state?

The head of state would have some popular legitimacy. This means there would be scope for the head of state to wield whatever power they had. In the UK, the head of state has a long list of royal prerogatives, from choosing who forms the next government to dissolving Parliament to declaring war to promulgating law. Some of these prerogatives could be transferred fairly easy to the Prime Minister but some (for instance, the first I listed) would be impossible to so transfer. This leaves a head of state with some constitutional power and electoral legitimacy. Combined, this gives them some scope to exercise that power.

Good response, thank you! (And I'll make it clear that I'm not arguing any particular case- my own politics aren't liberal, so I've no investment one way or the other- but just trying to improve my understanding.) However, I do wonder if it's possible to distinguish egalitarianism from liberalism as being something concerned by definition with material outcomes. Aren't there some shades of opinion in between the two, which begin with egalitarian principles without coming to communistic outcomes? ("Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions may be founded only upon the general good" as the first article of the Rights of Man and Citizen has it.) So it seems that even if liberalism does not necessarily produce, a contradiction with monarchy, that some interpretations of it will do so. Does that change things at all, or would that simply be another case of ideology-over-practice?

We could issue some interpretations of liberalism that would do so, sure. But there is a danger of playing semantic games here; we can label vastly different theories with the same word. This is conceptually confusing and does not help us understand anything about our principles or society.

As it happens, the liberalism on which liberal democracies are founded is more-or-less classical liberalism. Other popular liberal theories, Rawlsian liberalism for instance, came after the establishment of many such regimes. As I have argued, classical liberalism is certainly compatible with constitutional monarchy.

Whether other 'liberalisms' are compatible with monarchy depends exactly on the type of liberalism. Rawlsian liberalism almost would but not quite; if we dropped the criteria that 'all public offices must be open to everyone with equality of opportunity' it would. Indeed, such considerations are why I am going to some lengths to argue that monarchy can be beneficial; that means we can plausibly say it satisfied the difference principle (that social arrangements should benefit even the worse off) or something like it. Again, whether constitutional monarchy is compatible with other philosophies we might characterize as liberal depends on the precise philosophy in question. Incidentally, I do not think the incompatibility of monarchy with Rawlsian liberalism is a powerful indictment of monarchy; Rawlsian liberalism is false.
 
Monarchy's value derives from its symbol of continuity - the lineage goes back as far as one can remember. They are removed from power, and operate as a means to keep everyone united. Tourism often outpaces whatever budget they're on.

You wouldn't have that same magic if a monarchy was built today, so no new monarchies are built.

It's just a tradition that benefits national identity, which is why it's kept in so many liberal democracies.

A better question, I feel is, "are anti-nationalism and monarchy compatible?" There is no monarch of Europe, Asia, or even the world. They'd lose their value in an anti-nationalist union...

Monarchs have created new titles in the past, no reason why you can't have a King of the World.
 
In parallel to the previous argument, one reason the monarchy entails special diplomatic advantages is that people care about the monarchy. For instance, tens of millions of people in foreign countries, for whatever reason, watched the royal wedding. This kind of thing gives royal visits a status and prestige unattainable to normal diplomats. This does not mean the royals are any good at the negotiations involved diplomatic work, but they can help build congenial relations with foreign peoples. This, especially in democracies, is not an insignificant benefit.
I might view this differently than you, but I don't think the majority of people who cared about the royal wedding reflects favourably on the monarchy on the level of foreign relations. It rather puts them on the same level as Brangelina or whatever the rainbow press is currently obsessed with.

Your other points reiterate that there are tangible benefits to be had if you happen to be in a parliamentary monarchy. I don't want to challenge that, however, from the point of view of this thread I think we need more than that. The principle of monarchy is not self-contained within the ideology of liberal democracy, so even if it's useful, it can only work if people treat their monarchy regardless of the principles of liberal democracy.
 
I assumed that "monarchy" was understood in the sense of a particular kind of office, rather than a form of government- if "monarchy" can even be taken to describe a particular kind of government, but I'm not sure that it can. My question was about the ideological compatibility of monarchical institutions and liberal democracy, specifically whether or not it is possible to reconcile a liberal universalism, which is generally put forward as the justifying principles of contemporary democratic government, with an office which is by definition exclusive and elitist.

"Monarchy" isn't an office, that would rather be "Monarch", but I wouldn't really use the term of office since offices are generally appointed in consequence of elective or selective criteria, unlike monarchs. Monarchy is a form of government as you can look up in pretty much any encyclopedia, so I find rather odd that you assume that it is understood as an office.
Regardless, your question is rethorical, since monarchical institutions and liberal democracies coexist in many european countries. The only problem is that in your original question you called monarchical institutions "monarchy", which is quite incorrect.
 
"Monarchy" isn't an office, that would rather be "Monarch", but I wouldn't really use the term of office since offices are generally appointed in consequence of elective or selective criteria, unlike monarchs. Monarchy is a form of government as you can look up in pretty much any encyclopedia, so I find rather odd that you assume that it is understood as an office.
In the British usage, the office of the monarch and the institution of the monarchy are so closely tied together as to be interchangeable in everyday language, so perhaps I should have made myself clearer on that point.

Regardless, your question is rethorical, since monarchical institutions and liberal democracies coexist in many european countries. The only problem is that in your original question you called monarchical institutions "monarchy", which is quite incorrect.
I specifically acknowledge functional compatibility. My question was about ideological compatibility.
 
I might view this differently than you, but I don't think the majority of people who cared about the royal wedding reflects favourably on the monarchy on the level of foreign relations. It rather puts them on the same level as Brangelina or whatever the rainbow press is currently obsessed with.

Yes, but this kind of cultural export is not insignificant. Certainly it is the 'softest' form of diplomatic power but that is no reason to believe it has no effect. Countries with cultural ties with one another and generally benign views on the institutions within the other are, I think, more likely to 'get along'.

Combined with the previous discussion of the Commonwealth, I think we can make a strong argument that the Monarch yields some diplomatic benefits for Britain. Not incredible benefits, but benefits nonetheless.

Your other points reiterate that there are tangible benefits to be had if you happen to be in a parliamentary monarchy. I don't want to challenge that, however, from the point of view of this thread I think we need more than that. The principle of monarchy is not self-contained within the ideology of liberal democracy, so even if it's useful, it can only work if people treat their monarchy regardless of the principles of liberal democracy.

The point of view of this thread is discussion of whether monarchy is incompatible with liberal democracy. On the ideological level, no good arguments have been offered that it is. I have argued that it is not. Therefore, if monarchies are beneficial, they should be preserved. I have argued that in the British case they are beneficial.

On the parliamentary point precisely, I have argued that Monarchy makes the Westminster model of parliamentary democracy more robust. This is a point in favour of monarchy if and only if parliamentary regimes are better for democracy than presidential regimes.

However, the evidence here is overwhelming, I won't go through it all. Parliamentary regimes survive on average three times longer than presidential regimes. A parliamentary democracy with median covariants (income, ethnic divisions so on and so forth) has a 6 in 7 chance of 'consolidation'. 'Consolidation' means the state at which there is no chance that democracy will collapse back into authoritarianism. Mixed regimes have a 3 in 8 chance of consolidation and presidential regimes have a 1 in 6,800 chance of consolidation. Clearly, any system which makes parliamentary democracy more secure is one which makes democracy more secure.

Parliamentary regimes lack the veto points prevalent in presidential (and even mixed) regimes and are thus able to pass substantive legislation. The clear accountability of the government in power, in my opinion, means this legislation is less likely to favour particularistic interests. It will favour, at least, those necessary to re-elect that government. Possibly, it might even help everyone. This means that parliamentary regimes produce legislation closer to that the electorate wants; this is precisely the point of democracy. If constitutional monarchy makes parliamentary systems more robust, it makes democracies more robust.
 
I specifically acknowledge functional compatibility. My question was about ideological compatibility.

yeah but the the monarchical institution in constitutional monarchies works pretty much like the presidential institution in parliamentary republics, does it not? Ideologically it is compatible, one man formally neutral to the Parliament guarantees for the constitution. There is one important difference though, which is the fact that the "office" of monarch is inherited. I think it is still compatible because should the monarch behave like a jerk he would end up like in the other european countries where the monarchs behaved like jerks: exiled or executed, although this would mean a change of the constitution. So I would say it is compatible under a certain condition, there is a glitch, so to say, with monarchs in the ideology of liberal democracies caused by the fact that the monarchical title is inherited. But at the same time it helps the country to have a continuity with its past and tradition, which is quite important for the people, so I guess that's why it works in practice.
 
I don't know if it was Mme Jean herself or the fact that there would be trouble if a non-democratically chosen GG denied the request of a democratically elected PM, despite the fact that the move to prorogue was highly unpopular.

Harper did a fine job of getting the public to oppose any idea of an opposition coalition by making them think that it was undemocratic (despite the fact that he had attempted such a thing whilst in opposition himself 4 years earlier).

An elected GG would have had the full mandate to tame Harper's Parliamentary dysfunction rather than let him bring it all into the gutter and pin it on the opposition.


Eyebrow raising, Harper at that time when the opposition parties where going to join did not have the confidence of the house so democracy did not come into it.
Do a lot of Canadians believe they elected Harper as the PM rather than just another MP ?
 
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