[NFP] Monopolies and Corporations Game Mode Discussion Thread

[Mesrot]

This great mode need an outpost improvment to secure ressources outside your culture borders.
Currently the only possibility to get more ressources is with new cities via settlers or to conquer the enemy civs (the loyality system is forcing this).
I play Civ6 mainly in MP and the conquer option is very boring. I want to secure the resource but without wiping the whole civ out.
To secure your outpost you need some military there.
Outpost could be removed by pillaging it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

This great mode need an outpost improvment to secure ressources outside your culture borders.
Currently the only possibility to get more ressources is with new cities via settlers or to conquer the enemy civs (the loyality system is forcing this).
I play Civ6 mainly in MP and the conquer option is very boring. I want to secure the resource but without wiping the whole civ out.
To secure your outpost you need some military there.
Outpost could be removed by pillaging it.

If they were looking to encourage "Imperialist Wars" for resources, this Mode as we know it so far will probably do it.

Adding a Resource-Securing Outpost mechanic would provide a whole new technique for securing Monopolies, but adding a terrain Improvement external to the Civ Borders would be a major change from how Civ has done things since before Civ V.

Except, Outposts are an integral part of the new Humankind game, and operate very similarly to what you describe: they allow you to quickly 'seize' new Regions and their Resources, but are extremely fragile and subject to being wiped off the map by any passing enemy Scout unless protected/garrisoned. IF Outposts in Humankind work as well as they have so far (I've played with them in two different 'Builds' of the game, and they definitely provide a whole new set of strategic options to your play) I think any opposition to having them in Civ wold be hard to justify, and might even provoke a Tamaric-like Meme of requests from the Grognards here.

I could see a 'layered' Outpost/Settlement option: use a Builder Charge to construct an initial Settlement which turns the tile into Your Territory, another charge to put a Resource-Extracting Improvement on top of it (Pasture, Farm, Mine, Quarry, Plantation), then fortify it with a Military Engineer, Roman Legion, Builder. We already have layered Improvements in roads and Improvements in the same tile so having an 'extra' layer that simply changes the status of the tile from Unowned to Owned shouldn't be a huge stretch of coding.

Modders, any takers?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

If they were looking to encourage "Imperialist Wars" for resources, this Mode as we know it so far will probably do it.

Adding a Resource-Securing Outpost mechanic would provide a whole new technique for securing Monopolies, but adding a terrain Improvement external to the Civ Borders would be a major change from how Civ has done things since before Civ V.

Except, Outposts are an integral part of the new Humankind game, and operate very similarly to what you describe: they allow you to quickly 'seize' new Regions and their Resources, but are extremely fragile and subject to being wiped off the map by any passing enemy Scout unless protected/garrisoned. IF Outposts in Humankind work as well as they have so far (I've played with them in two different 'Builds' of the game, and they definitely provide a whole new set of strategic options to your play) I think any opposition to having them in Civ wold be hard to justify, and might even provoke a Tamaric-like Meme of requests from the Grognards here.

I could see a 'layered' Outpost/Settlement option: use a Builder Charge to construct an initial Settlement which turns the tile into Your Territory, another charge to put a Resource-Extracting Improvement on top of it (Pasture, Farm, Mine, Quarry, Plantation), then fortify it with a Military Engineer, Roman Legion, Builder. We already have layered Improvements in roads and Improvements in the same tile so having an 'extra' layer that simply changes the status of the tile from Unowned to Owned shouldn't be a huge stretch of coding.

Modders, any takers?

People on these boards have been suggesting something like that for years, actually. Someone proposed that cities should first be founded as "towns" (I don't recall the exact term they used), which would mature into cities after a set number of turns. During that grace period, "towns" could be stolen or razed by other civs without any diplomatic penalties.

I wouldn't be surprised if Humankind got the idea from crowd sourcing. Several things about Humankind (like the prehistoric mode) feel like the general thrust was derived from something posted on civfanatics or reddit.

 

[Zaarin]

I wouldn't be surprised if Humankind got the idea from crowd sourcing.

Nah, it's been part of their game design since Endless Space, their very first game. (Or else it was added in Endless Legend--it's been a long time since I played the original Endless Space. Point being, though, this has been a standard part of Amplitude design philosophy for many, many years.)

 

[UWHabs]

My favorite ones are the merchants that give extra traderoutes!

For me these are sacred... I think I will sacrifice all the ones that give just gold and envoys.

It will certainly be curious to think about whether a corporation/industry is worth more than a free trade route slot. That's going to be an interesting balance for sure.

But I do hope that they somehow expand the pool of great merchants in the mode. Like, even if they just generate fake merchants when you run out of all the others, whose simply get a generic ability to found a corporation, that would be neat. Otherwise, yeah, it's going to be a weird rush and balance to decide. Or, like, if I get Fugger, do I just sit him around for 50 turns until I can unlock whatever it is to be able to use him? Crassus I imagine should be able to use 2 of his charges, and then obviously he's best to park until you can use him later for the industry.

 

[Ticio]

Just realized that if products are considered Great Works, English Eleanor is going to have a lot of fun storing them in her Royal Navy Dockyard to flip cities.

Damn! that's true!

I think I will try the new patch with her instead of Vietnam to check it!

It will certainly be curious to think about whether a corporation/industry is worth more than a free trade route slot. That's going to be an interesting balance for sure.

But I do hope that they somehow expand the pool of great merchants in the mode. Like, even if they just generate fake merchants when you run out of all the others, whose simply get a generic ability to found a corporation, that would be neat. Otherwise, yeah, it's going to be a weird rush and balance to decide. Or, like, if I get Fugger, do I just sit him around for 50 turns until I can unlock whatever it is to be able to use him? Crassus I imagine should be able to use 2 of his charges, and then obviously he's best to park until you can use him later for the industry.

I'm personally hoping that the GM can do both, use their abilities and form the corporation. I mean, I like also to have to chose, but if you are a non economic civ I think you will have a lot of troubles... It makes sense as you will have to pay for the products... but this way, some "non economic" civs will be far better at making monopolies too, like Brazil or China (oracle).

 

[Myomoto]

I'm personally hoping that the GM can do both, use their abilities and form the corporation. I mean, I like also to have to chose, but if you are a non economic civ I think you will have a lot of troubles... It makes sense as you will have to pay for the products... but this way, some "non economic" civs will be far better at making monopolies too, like Brazil or China (oracle).

The tooltip shown in the video says the merchant is consumed when founding the corp.

I'm totally fine with it. We've been complaining about yield inflation for ages, it would be nice to see a new mode that add yields as a trade off of previous systems yields.

 

[Josephias]

Adding a Resource-Securing Outpost mechanic would provide a whole new technique for securing Monopolies, but adding a terrain Improvement external to the Civ Borders would be a major change from how Civ has done things since before Civ V.

You're right is something not usual, but I need to note outside-borders outposts and colonies were present in Civ III

Spoiler Examples of a Cartaginian Ivory Colony (scenario probably) and a persian Furs Colony :

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

People on these boards have been suggesting something like that for years, actually. Someone proposed that cities should first be founded as "towns" (I don't recall the exact term they used), which would mature into cities after a set number of turns. During that grace period, "towns" could be stolen or razed by other civs without any diplomatic penalties.

I wouldn't be surprised if Humankind got the idea from crowd sourcing. Several things about Humankind (like the prehistoric mode) feel like the general thrust was derived from something posted on civfanatics or reddit.

You mean outposts... from Beyond Earth? Beyond Earth had so many great ideas in it.

 

[Myomoto]

You're right is something not usual, but I need to note outside-borders outposts and colonies were present in Civ III

Spoiler Examples of a Cartaginian Ivory Colony (scenario probably) and a persian Furs Colony :

Ultimately, this is the kind of stuff I would have liked to see, and why I'm a bit disappointed with the NFP model.

I would so much rather have seen a big box expansion focused on imperialism/colonies, corporations/economic gameplay, vassals, a fixed World Congress, and World Ideologies.

Instead we got secret vampires, giant space meteors, and King Arthur?

 

[Deggial]

There is the mod “Strategic Forts”, which allows to build forts outside the own territory and claim the adjacent tiles (if not owned by other civs). It’s actually quite perfect for the upcoming game mode.

Unfortunately, the AI loves to build lots of them them everywhere, including the own territory and harms its own yields by doing so. Because of their abundance, the actually quite neat flipping mechanism also starts to get annoying when conquering cities. Due to these downsides, I disabled it eventually. But now and especially for MP games, it might be a worthwhile consideration again.

EDIT: Reading through the mod description, the author apparently tried to remove the AI ability to build “expansionists” (the unit creating the fort) so that the AI should not spawn pointless forts any more. (Neither reasonable ones, but this wasn’t the case anyway.) This may or may not have worked, though.
Obviously, this mod is a huge benefit for human players in all circumstances and therefore unbalance the game quite a bit, which is an issue in itself.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Damn! that's true!

I think I will try the new patch with her instead of Vietnam to check it!

It would be ironic if you put tea products in it producing massive amounts of loyalty.

Instead we got secret vampires, giant space meteors, and King Arthur?

Well I kind of wanted Vlad Tepes in the game.
Not how I imagined it though but it's been fun.

This mode however does look like it will be my favorite.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if outposts/colonies on luxury resources outside of your territory are how Portugal ends up being designed.
It would be pretty cool even if it's for one civ only. But it would make them unique.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

People on these boards have been suggesting something like that for years, actually. Someone proposed that cities should first be founded as "towns" (I don't recall the exact term they used), which would mature into cities after a set number of turns. During that grace period, "towns" could be stolen or razed by other civs without any diplomatic penalties.

I wouldn't be surprised if Humankind got the idea from crowd sourcing. Several things about Humankind (like the prehistoric mode) feel like the general thrust was derived from something posted on civfanatics or reddit.

I was one of those People, which is why I keep dragging my dead horse and stick out . . .

My original term was Settlement, which would be any populated sub-City construction outside of regular Civ borders - including Barbarian Settlements in Friendly, Neutral and Hostile flavors that would take the place of the current limited Barbarian Camps and Tribal Huts, and extra-territorial 'outposts' by the Civs, which I originally described as being built in various types: military as a Strategic Fort, commercial as a Trading Post to extend Trade Routes, Exploitative to provide control over Resources of all kinds. I'd now simplify that a bit into a Generic Settlement that can provide any of those benefits depending on what else you build in it - similar to the Humankind model of allowing the Outpost to exploit resources, Harbors, etc.

And, of course, there should be a mechanism to Upgrade an Outpost/Settlement into a City at some point or with some expenditure of a Civ's resources in Gold, Production, Population, Culture etc.

I knew one of the older Civ versions had something similar, as did Alpha Centauri, and there was a Genoa Modded Civ in Civ V that had the UA of being able to build a one-tile bit of owned territory over a Resource that automatically made it available to the Civ: a limited Outpost mechanic.

It is by no means a new idea, but it is overdue for addition to the game, and as part of a Commercial DLC it would seem to be a really good fit.

 

[8housesofelixir]

IMHO part of the reason why the devs don't introduce colony, outpost, and even vassals this time, is that there is literally no mechanics of diminishing returns of city-based expansion in Civ VI.

In past games there were the mechanics of corruption, health, and unhappiness that can limit city-based expansion; as a result, non-city expansions, such as colonies and vassals, were worthwhile, for they don't really suffer from diminishing returns.
In VI, on the other hand, there is nearly nothing to stop the player from city spamming. The player can plop down a city and decided to use that city as a "luxury colony", which renders actual colonies and outposts from a "must have" to just an "aesthetic need".
("No diminishing returns" is probably also the reason why VI don't have any Courthouses or health infrastructures to this day.)

Hope that the mechanics and codes of Corporations can be used for something more complex in the future Civ games.

 

[Ticio]

IMHO part of the reason why the devs don't introduce colony, outpost, and even vassals this time, is that there is literally no mechanics of diminishing returns of city-based expansion in Civ VI.

In past games there were the mechanics of corruption, health, and unhappiness that can limit city-based expansion; as a result, non-city expansions, such as colonies and vassals, were worthwhile, for they don't really suffer from diminishing returns.

In VI, on the other hand, there is nearly nothing to stop the player from city spamming. The player can plop down a city and decided to use that city as a "luxury colony", which renders actual colonies and outposts from a "must have" to just an "aesthetic need".

Hope that the mechanics and codes of Corporations can be used for something more complex in the future Civ games.

Sounds like it could be a good addition for one last big expansion pack!!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sounds like it could be a good addition for one last big expansion pack!!

I still feel like that's a niche that hasn't been explored yet which would also fit Portugal, in addition to the exploration part.

Building a unique improvement in neutral territory directly on or adjacent to luxuries and obtaining yields would definitely make them unique.

I have a feeling if they made it for all civs it would have been in this current game mode, of course that's just my opinion. Here's hoping they flesh out the monopoly and corporations idea in the base game of Civ 7 to deliver luxury colonies.

 

[Myomoto]

IMHO part of the reason why the devs don't introduce colony, outpost, and even vassals this time, is that there is literally no mechanics of diminishing returns of city-based expansion in Civ VI.

In past games there were the mechanics of corruption, health, and unhappiness that can limit city-based expansion; as a result, non-city expansions, such as colonies and vassals, were worthwhile, for they don't really suffer from diminishing returns.
In VI, on the other hand, there is nearly nothing to stop the player from city spamming. The player can plop down a city and decided to use that city as a "luxury colony", which renders actual colonies and outposts from a "must have" to just an "aesthetic need".
("No diminishing returns" is probably also the reason why VI don't have any Courthouses or health infrastructures to this day.)

Hope that the mechanics and codes of Corporations can be used for something more complex in the future Civ games.

This is definitely a key point, but I'm also very much of the opinion that we need more 'management' mechanics exactly like health and corruption to punish empires that are stretched too far.

It's a difficult piece of design: How do you make losing/failing fun? It's maybe not so fun to see half your empire splitter off and declare independence, but it definitely makes for a memorable event...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

IMHO part of the reason why the devs don't introduce colony, outpost, and even vassals this time, is that there is literally no mechanics of diminishing returns of city-based expansion in Civ VI.

In past games there were the mechanics of corruption, health, and unhappiness that can limit city-based expansion; as a result, non-city expansions, such as colonies and vassals, were worthwhile, for they don't really suffer from diminishing returns.
In VI, on the other hand, there is nearly nothing to stop the player from city spamming. The player can plop down a city and decided to use that city as a "luxury colony", which renders actual colonies and outposts from a "must have" to just an "aesthetic need".
("No diminishing returns" is probably also the reason why VI don't have any Courthouses or health infrastructures to this day.)

Hope that the mechanics and codes of Corporations can be used for something more complex in the future Civ games.

Very astute observation. Right now the nearest thing to this is Civ VI's rather tepid Loyalty mechanic, which while it seems to baffle the AI, is pretty easy to overcome by a Human Player who places his governors and Civics right.

As to the idea that 'losing' or suffering setbacks is No Fun, I'd point out that unceasing Positives is also deadly Dull in the long run.

On the other hand, a situation in which the far-flung Colonies almost inevitably Break Away politically while remaining economically, culturally, or commercially connected (for Historical Example, while the United States was politically separate from Britain after 1783, Britain was the USA's biggest trading and commercial partner for the next century, and post-Empire British 'colonies' and commonwealths remained closely tied economically and culturally to Britain for decades after the political 'split') and having that in turn connected to a Victory Type could make for a much more 'subtle' game, especially in the Post-Early Modern Eras of the late game that are so tedious now.

 

[Josephias]

It's a difficult piece of design: How do you make losing/failing fun? It's maybe not so fun to see half your empire splitter off and declare independence, but it definitely makes for a memorable event...

As to the idea that 'losing' or suffering setbacks is No Fun, I'd point out that unceasing Positives is also deadly Dull in the long run.

That is worth to mention, but going back to the dark age mechanic -> the way to introduce "negative" impacts is to make them positive in the long run. As Boris comments, spliting parts of your empire may have a "crazy about independence" timer in which they are hostile, but then become top-tier allies whose help can be leveraged into diplo or cultural victory. And some other challenges may have a similar prize if you meet the conditions on how to handle them.

Maybe some of these "harsh" mechanics could be locked to the "upper" difficulty levels, so people learning the game don't become overwhelend and don't have fun with the game. But, on the other hand, they appear as you go up the difficulty levels as new challenges to spice up your game.

 

[Xandinho]

Any guesses for the industry bonuses of other resources?

Marble can give production bonuses towords wonders in the host city.
Insense could give bonus of religion.
Whales migh give extra tourism?
Turtles may give some science bonus?
And wine extra amenities?