More Snow = Cooler Summer?

[Berzerker]

New snow has a high albedo (~reflectivity), and as more of the northern hemisphere is covered by it each minute/hour etc, the north - and the world - absorbs less sunshine. So shouldn't this translate into a cooler summer? We wont have long to find out, taking bets now

 

[Cutlass]

On the other hand, we have a large planet. And most of the surface is water. So most of the surface is always absorbing heat instead of reflecting it. The mid latitude snows will melt off long before summer and have no effect on it. It's not like the snow is everywhere. I'm 2 hours north of New York, and have yet to see 6 inches of snow for the entire winter.

 

[Abaddon]

How long is that snow staying on the ground?

How much cloud cover is there?

How much reflected rays are getting trapped by man-made pollution?

 

[Abaddon]

Also, snow insulates the land so it holds its warmth better.

 

[scherbchen]

also snow insultes the water/ice beneath it as everybody who has ever watched ice road truckers knows!

 

[Berzerker]

On the other hand, we have a large planet. And most of the surface is water. So most of the surface is always absorbing heat instead of reflecting it. The mid latitude snows will melt off long before summer and have no effect on it. It's not like the snow is everywhere. I'm 2 hours north of New York, and have yet to see 6 inches of snow for the entire winter.

The waters there all the time - and mostly in the south, and while the snow will melt you cant ignore the fact that snow was preventing plenty of land from absorbing solar radiation. Thats gotta have an effect, all things being equal our temps are determined by solar radiation reaching us and how much is absorbed.

How long is that snow staying on the ground?

How much cloud cover is there?

How much reflected rays are getting trapped by man-made pollution?

Snow love us long time this year, we've had snow cover close to 50% or more of the time. Thats just a guess, we got hit by an arctic blast around Christmas and that froze the ground fast so snow doesn't melt as easy. We had more fog this year, and cloud cover has increased some. More rays would be trapped regardless of us because more rays are reflected.

Also, snow insulates the land so it holds its warmth better.

Thats true, but the ground aint absorbing sunshine either

 

[Cutlass]

you'll grasp at any straw, won't you?

 

[Berzerker]

thats a chicken turd response
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[Cutlass]

Not at all. You just invent any excuse to not act responsibly on climate change. But this one it really reaching.

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[Gabryel Karolin]

According to the folksy wisdom of my Forest-Finn grandparents its the other way around; cold winters give warm summers.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Aparently, more snow = more stupid people.

 

[Virote_Considon]

If you're right, Berzerker, and we have a summer anything like the dismal summer last year, so help me I will hit you.

I want my bbq's.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The answer is clearly to produce more snow machines and hold the winter olympics in Sao Paulo.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's not only the amount of snow that determines the type of summer we have. But I do know from experience that more snow = more water in the rivers after spring breakup, and therefore higher water tables and less water rationing in the summer. That's why I am grateful for every snowflake we get, because it can only help the water table in my region of Canada.

Of course, it also means more mosquitoes, but Red Deer has a good anti-mosquito program...

 

[uppi]

The waters there all the time - and mostly in the south, and while the snow will melt you cant ignore the fact that snow was preventing plenty of land from absorbing solar radiation. Thats gotta have an effect, all things being equal our temps are determined by solar radiation reaching us and how much is absorbed.

You can't ignore the fact, that the snow was preventing the ground to radiate heat into space, either. Additionally, a lot of snow means a lot of clouds, which also prevent heat radiation. In winter it's the clear skies that result in really low temperatures.

 

[dirtyparrot]

The amount that's fallen is not close to being able to cause this. It's nothing more than more snow than usual for certain regions.

 

[say1988]

Snow love us long time this year, we've had snow cover close to 50% or more of the time.

Yet large areas are receiving far less snow cover this year. This is the only time I can remember seeing no or partial snow cover for much for January and February. It seems that, in North America, the South is getting far more snow than normal, but as you go north it is getting far less. You can't judge what is happening in the world based on your tiny segment of it.

It is like the people "global warming can't be happening because Washington DC got lots of snow" while huge swaths of the continent are having very high temperatures and far less snowfall than normal (partially due to the high temperatures causing significant rainfall).

Then you ignore that there are so many factors affecting weather, that a slight variation in this one likely has minimal impact.

 

[BasketCase]

Off the cuff, I think more snow would result in a cooler winter rather than a cooler summer.

The planet could be cooling down (more snow and cooler summer) or it could be having a wide-swing period of cold winters and warm summers. Or maybe the planet is warming up and the extra snow could simply be a fluke.

Whichever it is, it appears to me that the snow and the summer temperatures would both be caused by other things.

 

[Berzerker]

Not at all. You just invent any excuse to not act responsibly on climate change. But this one it really reaching.

I've noticed you quickly resort to insults and flat out lies when your limited knowledge of the subject matter fails you. Please stay out of my threads from now on, you are not welcome.
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According to the folksy wisdom of my Forest-Finn grandparents its the other way around; cold winters give warm summers.

Depends on how old that folksy wisdom goes back... I believe 10,000 years ago the northern hemisphere was closer to the Sun during summers so cold winters and warmer summers were the norm.

Aparently, more snow = more stupid people.

Now if I responded to that in kind, I'd get in trouble. But I do have a suggestion, when you call people stupid, spell the words right.
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It's not only the amount of snow that determines the type of summer we have. But I do know from experience that more snow = more water in the rivers after spring breakup, and therefore higher water tables and less water rationing in the summer. That's why I am grateful for every snowflake we get, because it can only help the water table in my region of Canada.

Of course, it also means more mosquitoes, but Red Deer has a good anti-mosquito program...

I've made that point in prior climate debates, remember that Cutlass? How did you respond then?

You can't ignore the fact, that the snow was preventing the ground to radiate heat into space, either. Additionally, a lot of snow means a lot of clouds, which also prevent heat radiation. In winter it's the clear skies that result in really low temperatures.

I'm not ignoring it, Abaddon already mentioned it. I just dont think the insulation makes up for the lost sunshine. Same thing with cloud cover, it may insulate some but it blocks out more. Clear cold skies are typically high pressures zones, but the colder the air the less moisture it can carry.

Yet large areas are receiving far less snow cover this year.

Sure, its the overall snow cover that matters. I just have the impression the lower latitudes saw more snow cover this year.

You can't judge what is happening in the world based on your tiny segment of it.

I was responding to someone who asked about the weather in my tiny segment.

It is like the people "global warming can't be happening because Washington DC got lots of snow" while huge swaths of the continent are having very high temperatures and far less snowfall than normal (partially due to the high temperatures causing significant rainfall).

No, it aint like that. This aint about the weather in Washington, or global warming: fact or fiction. Its about a very simple question, will more snow cover during the winter and spring result in a cooler spring and summer? You and Cutlass may want to turn that into a political debate, I dont give a damn about the politics.

Then you ignore that there are so many factors affecting weather, that a slight variation in this one likely has minimal impact.

The thread is about one specific question relating to albedo and insolation. I and we already know there are many factors affecting weather.

 

[say1988]

I just have the impression the lower latitudes saw more snow cover this year.

And higher latitudes saw less, at least in North America.

The thread is about one specific question relating to albedo and insolation. I and we already know there are many factors affecting weather.

But the fact remains that although it may have a slight effect one way or the other, slight shifts in wind patters, or tides, or currents, or cloud cover, or emissions of some chemicals, or any other of a multitude of factors would have as much if not more of an impact making any change due to snow cover negligible and untestable.

And since most of the oceans and landmasses are still absorbing heat, and the ocean currents are pretty good at distributing that heat around the world and those that are are covered for a small portion of the year.

If there was significant and year round extension of snow cover (i.e. a new ice age), then it would likely decrease the temperature, but minor variance for a few months would be negligible at best.