More Wonders

[Pouakai]

To answer your myriad of questions, Malcolm; no, it's not currently possible to make proper natural wonders due to limitations on adding new models to the game - the same reason no modded wonders contain 3D Models on the map.
I will eventually release them in a couple of compilation versions, maybe as a holiday gift.
Some of those Natural Wonders will eventually get in, but I don't want too many as buildable versions, hense why the list is about ten times smaller than my main list. I will probably do Giant's Causeway and Milford Sound though, possibly the others if I think it won't be pushing the limit.

Also guys, I'm having an issue with the Matterhorn's effect, so there will only be one wonder today. I'm hoping to get the Matterhorn out to you guys before the week is out though!

 

[Pouakai]

Templo Mayor

Located in the heart of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, Templo Mayor was a large step pyramid with twin shrines and staircases, each of them devoted to a different god - Tlaloc, God of Agriculture and Rain, and Huitzilopochtli, the God of War. Known to the residents of Tenochtitlan as Huey Teocalli, it was constantly improved from its construction in the early 14^th century until it was destroyed in 1521 by Hernan Cortez's Conquistadors. Ingame, Templo Mayor provides +15% Production when constructing wonders and an Engineer specialist slot, while it becomes available with Mathematics. It can either be downloaded from the CivFanatics Download Database, Here, or via the Ingame ModBrowser.

Spoiler Screenshots :

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[Malvi]

wow i was looking for something like this, it would have perfectly fitted with pyramid too

 

[sukritact]

Great effect! It'll go well with all the other wonders!

The quote looks funny though. But it shouldn't be hard to fix.

 

[Ahhuatl]

Oh man, thanks guys. You made my week!

 

[Noatz]

Just to note, the Wonder Modifier effect applies only in the city the wonder is built in; sadly there's no stub for global wonder production in the XML.

 

[Pouakai]

The Matterhorn

Found on the Swiss-Italian border, the Matterhorn is a large Mountain which is arugably the most iconic in all of Europe. It is 4,478 metres tall, and was not climbed sucessfully until 1865, when a team of seven reached the summit on June the 14th. The peak had long striked fear into the hearts of climbers, and this was intensified when four of the seven in the first team to climb fell to their deaths on the decent, one of whom was never found. Much like a normal Natural Wonder, the Matterhorn provides a specific yield, in this case 4 Culture and 3 science. It also provides an additional 2 happiness, and becomes available with Acoustics. The Matterhorn can be downloaded either from the Ingame ModBrowser or from the CivFanatics download database, found Here.

Spoiler Screenshots :

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[CivOasis]

Well, its too bad we can't do proper NWs (well, I suppose we could, but they'd use existing graphics and be a complete pain to do), but this is definitely good.
Couple thoughts:
While it does make sense, I don't know that the NWs should have GP points.
Also, I don't know how production for that era compares, but perhaps NWs should have slightly lower production cost?

Anyways, in light of the fact that "real" NWs can't be made, perhaps some from the suggestion thread can be made over here?

 

[CivOasis]

Also, should Matterhorn yield science? In the other thread, it was given production and gold (though culture definitely makes sense).

As another side, perhaps the Semi-NWs shouldn't produce culture (unless it really makes sense there), so as to further differentiate them from WWs?

 

[Pouakai]

I did have an idea for specialists instead of GPP to represent the citizen working it, how's that?

If anything, I was thinking to have a slightly higher cost, but I might lower it. I thought science as a little nod to the LHC and CERN, and Production / Gold brings back bad memories of the first release where NW were horrible tiles

 

[malcolm01234]

I think the GPPs are a good idea because a artist may be inspired by a natural wonder leading to him/her created a great work of art, somewhat making them a Great Artist.

If you want them removed for consistency between Natural Wonders, I could understand that...

I do agree with you about the technology though.I can't see how a mountain could give that...

 

[elprofesor]

As a guy who has lived the first 18 years of his life in Barcelona, I've entitled myself to comment on the bonus you have chosen for the Sagrada Família

I feel a free GA isn't really on line with what the cathedral means to us; plus, it's quite close to the Louvre, which kinda lessens its impact. So I'll give you some ideas which do feel "SagradaFamiliy" to me, so that you can choose another one, if you want (spoilered for convenience). In no particular order:

Spoiler :

-the architect which designed it, Antoni Gaudí, has designed pretty much 50% of all relevant cultural buildings in Barcelona (no kidding); that guy was a genius, and he's pretty much idolatred by all of us. So a significant bonus towards GE points seems like a good idea, either via loads of GE points (say, 4-5), or boosting GE points empire wise (say, +50%). I would have been more inclined for the SF to give a free GE, but if HS has taught us something, it's that it's a bad idea.

-Catalonia (the Spanish region where the SF is) is the most anticatholic region in Spain, yet its most iconic building is a cathedral, and catalans are actually proud of it. That sounds like a happiness bonus to me

-The SF is indeed cultural in nature (since religion is represented by culture in Civ5), but a free GA doesn't seem like a good way to represent it; I don't know of anybody who made a reknowed piece of art inspired by Gaudí's style. Extra culture, or extra artist specialist slots seems like a better choice to me.

-And for the time the SF has been in construction, Catalonia was maybe the most active region in Spain, and one of the first to industrialize itself; it is still today the richest region in Spain. So maybe linking the culture (or some other bonus) given by the SF to production or gold is a good idea (extra culture from either raw production, or specific tile improvements such as mines or lumbermills, for example).

On a side note, I feel like Gaudí deserves to be the one with the quote for the SF (even though your quote is beautiful, don Quixote and the Sagrada Familia have only one point in common, that is both being Spanish). I'm not very good at translating, but I'll try to translate some quotes from him, so that you can choose another one, if you want to (spoilered for convenience); please correct them if my English sounds too awkward:

Spoiler :

"Beauty is the splendor of truth, and since art is beauty, there is no art without truth"
"We [Southerners] have the image. Fantasy comes from ghosts. Fantasy is a northerner's thing. We are concrete. The image is mediterranean. Orestes knows where he's going, while Hamlet wanders, lost in doubt"
"My best friends are dead; I have no family, nor clients, nor fortune, nor anything. I can thus completely commit myself to the Temple [referring to the SF]"
"Proof that Gothic structures are deficient is that they cause the most awe when mutilated, covered with ivy and moonlit"
"Architecture is the arrangement of light; sculpture is the play of light [Gaudí's work is heavily influenced by lighting issues]"
"My ideas are of indisputable logic; the only thing that makes me doubt is that they have never been applied before"
"All artwork must be seductive, and if while seeking originality the quality of seduction is lost, it isn't art anymore"

Voilà. I hope that you take all this as me trying to help you improve your idea; I'm just throwing at you semi-random ideas, so that you can make a better informed choice. You can take some of these ideas and implement them, or none at all; it's your mod after all

 

[Sneaks]

For the Matterhorn, I suggest using a system similar to how Thal has built Macchu Pichu. It requires a mountain in borders, and simply changes the yield of the mountain plot.

 

[CivOasis]

Pouakai, all of your points taken, the shift to a slot would be good.

However, Sneak's mention sounds interesting, and would be far closer to natural wonders (plus, the method could probably be adapted for all semi-NWs).

 

[Pouakai]

elprofesor: Thanks for your input, I always love hearing from people who live in a city with one of the wonders. I love your ideas and will implement them into a future patch. Hows this?

+3 Great Engineer points
+5 Happiness
+4 Culture


Unfortunately, some of your other ideas aren't possible. As culture isn't a proper yield per se, I can't give it to tile improvements, nor can I give culture per % of Production / Gold or vice versa. Also, I can't give an artist specialist if I have it giving Great Engineer points, nor can I give a boost to just one type of Great Person. They're currently impossible via XML.
As for the quotes, they're awesome, I'll change it in the newest version. Also, would you be able to translate my wonders into Spanish for me? That would be awesome if you could. Thanks!

Sneaks: I tried that, and it's evident if you look in the files IIRC. I couldn't seem to get it to work, did Thal do something in his actual mod that wouldn't be possible in Vanilla, or is it possible and if so how?

CivOasis: OK, I'll do that in the next version, but I'll wait to see if I can boost mountains first.

 

[elprofesor]

That's neat. Maybe some extra culture, though? I have the feeling that it's nor here nor there, because happiness is something that big empires want, while culture is something that tall empires going cultural want, and it doesn't give enough of either, besides the always welcome 3 GE points. If you compare it to another wonder you've done, Broadway, which costs more or less the same and doesn't come much later, you can see that Broadway gives 4 GA points, which are overall a bit worse than 3 GE points (even though SF comes late, and relevant late game wonders are rare), but it gives 20 extra culture, which is way better for the tall empire than 4 culture and 5 (unneeded) happiness. I don't know how good it would be for wide empires though.
I'd say that 8 culture would be honest for the wonder (mainly because the 5 happiness isn't something relevant for cultural victories, while that 4 extra culture won't make a big difference for wide empires).

And since you liked my input, I'll gladly entitle myself to comment the Alhambra (I've never lived in Granada, but my father was raised there): you've done a good job, but more from an ingame perspective; there aren't many "defensive" wonders, so logically Alhambra (which means "the red one" in Arab) had to give defensive bonuses, even though if in real life it's just as much a castle as a palace, and quite a luscious one (in the "vegetal" and "aquatic" sense) during its good years. Is Shakespeare's quote refering to the Alhambra, by the way? If it isn't, do you want me to find you another quote?

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You want me to translate the civilopedia entry and the quote, is it? That's something I can do, but it may take me a while to get to it, since I have exams for a couple of weeks right now. But I'll note it down and get to it. Do you want me to PM you the translations?

 

[CivOasis]

Hey, whenever Xunantunich comes around, I may have a quote for it.

 

[Pouakai]

That's neat. Maybe some extra culture, though? I have the feeling that it's nor here nor there, because happiness is something that big empires want, while culture is something that tall empires going cultural want, and it doesn't give enough of either, besides the always welcome 3 GE points. If you compare it to another wonder you've done, Broadway, which costs more or less the same and doesn't come much later, you can see that Broadway gives 4 GA points, which are overall a bit worse than 3 GE points (even though SF comes late, and relevant late game wonders are rare), but it gives 20 extra culture, which is way better for the tall empire than 4 culture and 5 (unneeded) happiness. I don't know how good it would be for wide empires though.

What I posted earlier is, in my opinion, not yet complete. I want to give it a proper effect but not sure what to do at the moment, I'll try and work something out. Bonus culture from Engineer specialists or bonus production from Artist specialists?

I'd say that 8 culture would be honest for the wonder (mainly because the 5 happiness isn't something relevant for cultural victories, while that 4 extra culture won't make a big difference for wide empires).

I think 8 culture is too much, given that most wonders that give substantial culture have that as their sole effect. I want to try and make Sagrada Familia a wonder for a Specialist empire, so the aforementioned effect could work?

And since you liked my input, I'll gladly entitle myself to comment the Alhambra (I've never lived in Granada, but my father was raised there): you've done a good job, but more from an ingame perspective; there aren't many "defensive" wonders, so logically Alhambra (which means "the red one" in Arab) had to give defensive bonuses, even though if in real life it's just as much a castle as a palace, and quite a luscious one (in the "vegetal" and "aquatic" sense) during its good years. Is Shakespeare's quote refering to the Alhambra, by the way? If it isn't, do you want me to find you another quote?

I chose defensive bonuses for the Alhambra because if I remember correctly Granada was one of the last strongholds in Spain of the Moors, and as such defensive bonuses work, as well as the fact that there isn't a good defensive wonder, apart from maybe the Kremlin.
Shakespeare's quote isn't about the Alhambra per se, but I thought it was very fitting and if you look at the Vanilla quotes, many of them are not about the wonder themselves but something similar. Take the Kremlin, it has a quote from Muhammed 'The law is a fortress that cannot be washed away' or something along those lines. This has nothing to do with the Kremlin apart from the fact it's used as a government building.

You want me to translate the civilopedia entry and the quote, is it? That's something I can do, but it may take me a while to get to it, since I have exams for a couple of weeks right now. But I'll note it down and get to it. Do you want me to PM you the translations?

I have exams in a couple of weeks too, so I might not be on much. But just all the text, so name, help text, Civilopedia and quote. If you could do that it would be awesome. As long as you let me know which text is for which section it will be fine sending them via PM. Thanks!

 

[elprofesor]

If you ask me, extra culture from engineers sounds great, actually! And about the Alhambra, I understood why you chose to give it these bonus (it was indeed the last moor stronghold in Spain). I probably didn't word it properly, but I actually thought that you did a good work. And yeah, not all quotes refer to the wonder itself (most don't, actually), so that works.

As soon as I have some spare time I'll send you some translations. Maybe this weekend.

 

[Pouakai]

Awesome, thanks.

Just a heads up guys, this weekend's release will probably be the only wonder release in November. I have exams for the whole month, and studying for those is very important. I am planning a large release though now, three wonders hopefully, and two afterwards (In other words sukritact, I'm going to need more icons )