multimaps and other questions

[Civ4newbie]

Hi to the ctc team, how far away do you think multimaps are from being complete? will multimaps be ready when the next version of ctc is out? is there even a galactic era yet? is there sea cities yet?
also when the multimaps are done is there going to be aliens when you get to the galactic era? and I just don't mean one alien barbarian rivals that you are against in the late game. I remember someone stating somewhere that there are not going to be alien humanoids. well if not then will there at least be non humanoid aliens or alien civs that you can communicate with once you get a certain technology(like make piece or declare war or trade recources with) and mabey even trade techs by say having a reverse engineering tech?

I was thinking aliens would be available either apon contact with them once you reach the galactic era or perhaps after you have defeated a good chunk of human civs depending on how many you had in the game or you defeat all human civs or own 75 to 80% of the map or multimaps. this probably is not going to happen for a long while. if it's never going to happen then will there at least be a mod mod for this?

 

[Alex Costa]

The Moon map will probably be the first being released but I don't expect it for the next version. Probably one of the Early SVN for version 28 or even only version 29. As for aliens that would be interesting idea. We could even make some Alien civs from novelity works like Star Wars or the Race.

 

[ls612]

The Moon map will probably be the first being released but I don't expect it for the next version. Probably one of the Early SVN for version 28 or even only version 29. As for aliens that would be interesting idea. We could even make some Alien civs from novelity works like Star Wars or the Race.

It first requires that DH makes some Multi-Maps UI. Then Koshling would have to come back and work on the actual Multi-Maps, before we can work on adding Lunar stuff.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

OK, I have no idea what it is that people want me to do with the UI. If we are talking about the move between maps functions then there are two things we need.

1) AIAndy needs to explain to me why I can get missions working for one unit (Lawyer) but not any others (eg Story Teller)

2) The "Go To City..." function is needed. This function pops up a screen that lists all the target cities (which includes star bases, gate stations etc.) So on Earth this means

i) What is the domain of the unit.
ii) What friendly cities can the unit go to (player, vassal, non-hostile)
iii) provide the list to the player (or AI) to choose from
iii) return the coordinates of the target city
iv) give the normal go to with the coordinates​

When we have other maps units will need to indicate some how where they can travel so domain=Earth-Moon; Solar System; Galactic Arm; Galaxy;...

i) If the domain is Earth-Moon then the "Go To City..." will display the list of cities on the Moon if the unit is on the Earth and on the Earth if the unit is on the Moon
ii) it will return the chosen coordinates with the map id.
ii) the number of turns to travel will be calculated the unit removed from its source and placed at the target when it should arrive.

If there is a "display only" Earth-Moon map the unit would appear on that map and go to the other body where it would land. This is more difficult or not.​

 

[ls612]

OK, I have no idea what it is that people want me to do with the UI. If we are talking about the move between maps functions then there are two things we need.
<snip>

Here is what Koshling said he wanted for development.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So

• the mission buttons to move units between maps see my post above for what that needs
• a way of showing a map other than the base one in the UI. I need to understand the UI code but it may just be a coordinate thing when selecting what to display. This is a biggie! It will probably require a way to change the minimap which is another biggie.
• a way to manually switch between maps - probably buttons on the minimap

 

[ls612]

So

• the mission buttons to move units between maps see my post above for what that needs
• a way of showing a map other than the base one in the UI. I need to understand the UI code but it may just be a coordinate thing when selecting what to display. This is a biggie! It will probably require a way to change the minimap which is another biggie.
• a way to manually switch between maps - probably buttons on the minimap

Yeah. LyTning way back when exposed a multi-maps API to the python so you might want to look at that.

 

[Koshling]

There is a Python API already for map switching. The big issue is getting multiple maps generated in the first place, and having appropriate map scripts tied to them. Currently the only way to generate multiple maps is the XML Lytning had, which is a little inflexible (doesn't allow a way to tie different scripts to different maps and so on). Map scripts are not something I know much about, but if someone could sort out how to get the game to generate the multiple maps at the start (AIAndy maybe?), and someone could add some UI somewhere to allow the player to switch using the existing APIs, I could then work on adding the necessary extra coordinate to units so as to allow them to move between maps, and also do the work necessary to have the game process all maps each turn.

 

[ls612]

There is a Python API already for map switching. The big issue is getting multiple maps generated in the first place, and having appropriate map scripts tied to them. Currently the only way to generate multiple maps is the XML Lytning had, which is a little inflexible (doesn't allow a way to tie different scripts to different maps and so on). Map scripts are not something I know much about, but if someone could sort out how to get the game to generate the multiple maps at the start (AIAndy maybe?), and someone could add some UI somewhere to allow the player to switch using the existing APIs, I could then work on adding the necessary extra coordinate to units so as to allow them to move between maps, and also do the work necessary to have the game process all maps each turn.

Do we really want to generate them at the start? It can already take over 10 minutes to make a Gigantic map, and my new mapsizes can take an hour. Wouldn't it make more sense to generate them when it is time in the game (so when you research an appropriate tech)?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd like to bet that primmOver could be a big help in that regard. Based on his current project, surely he could throw together a dll based solution that could generate fairly simple (at first) maps in game and not take too long doing it. I'd hit him up on that but he had some questions for us that I didn't know how to answer so maybe we could trade some efforts between us there.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Do we really want to generate them at the start? It can already take over 10 minutes to make a Gigantic map, and my new mapsizes can take an hour. Wouldn't it make more sense to generate them when it is time in the game (so when you research an appropriate tech)?

iirc the problem is that you cant multi-tread the Python so it is going to take a lot of time any way at some point. I see your point about not generating maps you may never get to use because the game ends.

 

[Hydromancerx]

OK, I have no idea what it is that people want me to do with the UI. If we are talking about the move between maps functions then there are two things we need.

1) AIAndy needs to explain to me why I can get missions working for one unit (Lawyer) but not any others (eg Story Teller)

2) The "Go To City..." function is needed. This function pops up a screen that lists all the target cities (which includes star bases, gate stations etc.) So on Earth this means

i) What is the domain of the unit.
ii) What friendly cities can the unit go to (player, vassal, non-hostile)
iii) provide the list to the player (or AI) to choose from
iii) return the coordinates of the target city
iv) give the normal go to with the coordinates​

When we have other maps units will need to indicate some how where they can travel so domain=Earth-Moon; Solar System; Galactic Arm; Galaxy;...

i) If the domain is Earth-Moon then the "Go To City..." will display the list of cities on the Moon if the unit is on the Earth and on the Earth if the unit is on the Moon
ii) it will return the chosen coordinates with the map id.
ii) the number of turns to travel will be calculated the unit removed from its source and placed at the target when it should arrive.

If there is a "display only" Earth-Moon map the unit would appear on that map and go to the other body where it would land. This is more difficult or not.​

Well in the initial plans there were going to be "portals" in which units initially go through.

Earth -> Solar System
This would first have you arrive at the Earth graphic on the Solar System Map. Likewise if you want to return to Earth you would put the unit on the Earth graphic on the map.

Solar System -> Moon
You would enter the Moon map by moving your unit to the Moon graphic on the Solar System Map. Likewise if you went from the Moon to the Solar System you would appear at the moon icon.

Note that there was discussion of just by passing the Solar System map and going directly from the Earth to the Moon map. Note that Mars or any other planet on the solar system would follow the same method.

Solar System -> Galaxy
This one is much easier to understand with 2 fixed points. On the solar system you have the sun which would link to the Star on the Galactic map. However some have suggested that to leave the solar system you should reach the edge of the Solar System. But if you are come from the Galaxy map to the Solar System you should arrive at the Sun.

I am not sure which is a better way to do it.

EDIT: Also for the maps its suggested that they be the following ...

- Earth = Sphere
- Moon = Sphere
- Mars = Sphere
- Solar System = Flat
- Galactic = Flat

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well in the initial plans there were going to be "portals" in which units initially go through.

Earth -> Solar System
This would first have you arrive at the Earth graphic on the Solar System Map. Likewise if you want to return to Earth you would put the unit on the Earth graphic on the map.

Solar System -> Moon
You would enter the Moon map by moving your unit to the Moon graphic on the Solar System Map. Likewise if you went from the Moon to the Solar System you would appear at the moon icon.

Note that there was discussion of just by passing the Solar System map and going directly from the Earth to the Moon map. Note that Mars or any other planet on the solar system would follow the same method.

Solar System -> Galaxy
This one is much easier to understand with 2 fixed points. On the solar system you have the sun which would link to the Star on the Galactic map. However some have suggested that to leave the solar system you should reach the edge of the Solar System. But if you are come from the Galaxy map to the Solar System you should arrive at the Sun.

I am not sure which is a better way to do it.

EDIT: Also for the maps its suggested that they be the following ...

- Earth = Sphere
- Moon = Sphere
- Mars = Sphere
- Solar System = Flat
- Galactic = Flat

All of that can be done with the mission stuff.

You were also talking about leaving earth for a "random" location on the Moon/Mars as well. Also saying you wanted to go from Sydney (Earth, Australia) to Moon Base Alpha on the dark side of the moon. These missions would mean that you would not have the ability to control your units until they reached their destination.

 

[Hydromancerx]

All of that can be done with the mission stuff.

You were also talking about leaving earth for a "random" location on the Moon/Mars as well. Also saying you wanted to go from Sydney (Earth, Australia) to Moon Base Alpha on the dark side of the moon. These missions would mean that you would not have the ability to control your units until they reached their destination.

Indeed. the only maps with fixed locations are the Solar System and Galactic maps. The rest are either random or by city. Such as the location of "NASA" in your nation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Those 'fixed' positions on the solar system and galactic maps should probably be options that popup for selection when the mission to move to those maps is selected. The options should be any space adjacent to the planet or any space on the exterior rim if coming into the solar system from the galactic map. Those options should somehow show, on the button, the units that are present in those spaces and if an enemy unit is there, its a fight.

Therefore, a planet could be barricaded but it'd take filling 8 spaces with as many troops as you can to hold it that way.

 

[Civ4newbie]

okay, so umm, no sea cities yet? I went into world builder and discovered that you can place a city in the sea and it is a small graphic from final frontier with a city name and citybar. So can sea cities actually be built or just in world builder? I know sea towns or something like that can be built. if sea cities can be built then do the city graphics actually look like a water city instaid of a small final frontier graphic?(I think it was part of a warp lane or something)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No sea cities at the moment the AI does not know how to use them and there are other problems.

 

[civfan613]

I know I'll sound blatantly stupid and ignorant, but is it really that hard to code in an additional dimension for the map number for coordinates (units, cities, etc)?
(Like z for 2.5-dimension games, or something.)
Then just use another single switch "show ON/OFF" that would react to whether that specific map is active currently (thus, ALL units and cities are there, on a SINGLE map, but not all of them are ACTIVE and thus visible, same for tiles - actually, ALL objects).
This COULD lead to high memory use on scrolling through units or cities, but it would only read for a single trigger, not forcing a full redraw like when switching between maps.
Viewports should help a lot in this too.

Also, maybe you could somehow get this idea from HoMM3+, which has two-level maps?
Sorry, I said I'd sound stupid.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I know I'll sound blatantly stupid and ignorant, but is it really that hard to code in an additional dimension for the map number for coordinates (units, cities, etc)?
(Like z for 2.5-dimension games, or something.)
Then just use another single switch "show ON/OFF" that would react to whether that specific map is active currently (thus, ALL units and cities are there, on a SINGLE map, but not all of them are ACTIVE and thus visible, same for tiles - actually, ALL objects).
This COULD lead to high memory use on scrolling through units or cities, but it would only read for a single trigger, not forcing a full redraw like when switching between maps.
Viewports should help a lot in this too.

Also, maybe you could somehow get this idea from HoMM3+, which has two-level maps?
Sorry, I said I'd sound stupid.

What is HoMM3+? Oh, if only it was fully object and not partially object for speed. It was written last millennium

 

[Faustmouse]

The big issue is getting multiple maps generated in the first place, and having appropriate map scripts tied to them.

If the Mapscripts is what's pushing back multimaps I'd be more than happy to make a scenario for it at first. There aren't so many features/ terrains / ressources for moon or martian maps anyway, so I think they all would look quite similar.